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Ditch NPC Police (not CONCORD)
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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-06-18 10:38:02 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
But I start to see where you come from; you are apparently also one of those who consider ganking and jita camping a high art of PVP.
PVP is what people make of it. That's the beauty of a sandbox.

My PVP preferences can be easily deduced from my killboard. I don't judge how other people PVP, though. I just believe in giving them options.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#62 - 2014-06-18 10:45:55 UTC
Yep, the killboard is very revealing.

Giving them options is one thing, but encouraging them to go into the wrong direction on the progression path or even to come back from the end of the progression path to the safe beginner place, is something that is fundamentally wrong.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#63 - 2014-06-18 10:57:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
why not just go to lowsec for pvp and leave highsec to the carebear miners who would just moan about this idea anyway.

you want to be able to attack people in highsec but still keep the security of being protected by concord while in highsec so yourself doesnt get attacked?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-06-18 11:02:14 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
why not just go to lowsec for pvp and leave highsec to the carebear miners who would just moan about this idea anyway.

you want to be able to attack people in highsec but still keep the security of being protected by concord while in highsec so yourself doesnt get attacked?
Nope, negative security status players would be freely attackable by anyone, without CONCORD intervention. If they decide to go to highsec, they would have no CONCORD protection and be at a disadvantage to all positive secuirty status players.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#65 - 2014-06-18 11:05:28 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
why not just go to lowsec for pvp and leave highsec to the carebear miners who would just moan about this idea anyway.

you want to be able to attack people in highsec but still keep the security of being protected by concord while in highsec so yourself doesnt get attacked?
Nope, negative security status players would be freely attackable by anyone, without CONCORD intervention. If they decide to go to highsec, they would have no CONCORD protection and be at a disadvantage to all positive secuirty status players.


yes you you want to be able to attack more players in highsec but still be protected by concord, so you can attack neg sec but cant be attacked

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-06-18 11:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gully Alex Foyle
Lan Wang wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
why not just go to lowsec for pvp and leave highsec to the carebear miners who would just moan about this idea anyway.

you want to be able to attack people in highsec but still keep the security of being protected by concord while in highsec so yourself doesnt get attacked?
Nope, negative security status players would be freely attackable by anyone, without CONCORD intervention. If they decide to go to highsec, they would have no CONCORD protection and be at a disadvantage to all positive secuirty status players.


yes you you want to be able to attack more players in highsec but still be protected by concord, so you can attack neg sec but cant be attacked
This is already possible, actually.

My bad, I forgot to update the OP. Fixed it now.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#67 - 2014-06-18 11:23:45 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
I start to see the possibilities this tweak offers ... it's mainly bad for low-sec people

I don't hink it's generally bad for anyone, it just offers more possibilties. In the end it depends who will be usuing it to his advantage and who neglects it.

Lan Wang wrote:
why not just go to lowsec for pvp and leave highsec to the carebear miners who would just moan about this idea anyway.

you want to be able to attack people in highsec but still keep the security of being protected by concord while in highsec so yourself doesnt get attacked?

I don't think so, I would consider myself a High Sec Carebear and I would fully support it and use it as a diving board into PvP, especially with firends. And once you engage they can legally shoot back, you are not protected by concord, usual rules of engagement apply. Not to mention, that his buddies might not care to be concorded just to get on the kill or give the little bit of extra dps burst to take you out. I believe it furthers small gang PvP and will jump kick many a-care-o-bear into PvP. Causalties will be on both sides.

Lan Wang wrote:

yes you you want to be able to attack more players in highsec but still be protected by concord, so you can attack neg sec but cant be attacked

You can always be attacked... someone please show her... I am not at home atm. Pirate
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#68 - 2014-06-18 11:26:47 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
I start to see the possibilities this tweak offers ... it's mainly bad for low-sec people

I don't hink it's generally bad for anyone, it just offers more possibilties. In the end it depends who will be usuing it to his advantage and who neglects it.

Lan Wang wrote:
why not just go to lowsec for pvp and leave highsec to the carebear miners who would just moan about this idea anyway.

you want to be able to attack people in highsec but still keep the security of being protected by concord while in highsec so yourself doesnt get attacked?

I don't think so, I would consider myself a High Sec Carebear and I would fully support it and use it as a diving board into PvP, especially with firends. And once you engage they can legally shoot back, you are not protected by concord, usual rules of engagement apply. Not to mention, that his buddies might not care to be concorded just to get on the kill or give the little bit of extra dps burst to take you out. I believe it furthers small gang PvP and will jump kick many a-care-o-bear into PvP. Causalties will be on both sides.

Lan Wang wrote:

yes you you want to be able to attack more players in highsec but still be protected by concord, so you can attack neg sec but cant be attacked

You can always be attacked... someone please show her... I am not at home atm. Pirate


yeah didnt read it properly lol im not allowed in highsec anyway Pirate but feel free to show me anytime :P

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#69 - 2014-06-18 11:36:34 UTC
guess it would also be good if concord were not invincible, i.e be able to be killed like normal npc's, more tank and infinate spawns but not invincible

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#70 - 2014-06-18 11:49:17 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
guess it would also be good if concord were not invincible, i.e be able to be killed like normal npc's, more tank and infinate spawns but not invincible


Well, thats a whole 'nother issue and I don't think should blend intot his discussion or it will get sidetracked, hi-jacked etc..

Personal I think you should be able to retaliate and maybe even kill one or the other Concord ship, even just for the feeling of accomplishment, but the mechaninc must remain as punishment, Concord should not be avoideable, not even by 'defeating' them no matter the difficulty. It shoudl also not be profitable, meaning leaving no salvage, loot for obvious reasons. But as I said, a totally diferent issue, could link you a discussion thread if you want ,)
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#71 - 2014-06-18 11:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lan Wang wrote:
guess it would also be good if concord were not invincible, i.e be able to be killed like normal npc's, more tank and infinate spawns but not invincible


Why? Why do people care about CONCORD? If you want to live your pirate life, don't go to High sec and live it in Low sec and 00 sec, where you are supposed to live. We already had a weak CONCORD once and it was not enough to keep the player's extremes at bay. If you want to live extremes, live where you are supposed to live and where you have all the tools and mechanics at your finger tips to live them.

Industrialists are encouraged to set out to Low sec and 00 sec with Crius and Kronos and expansions to come, and what do PVPers want? They want to go back to High sec. This is nutty.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#72 - 2014-06-18 12:26:55 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
guess it would also be good if concord were not invincible, i.e be able to be killed like normal npc's, more tank and infinate spawns but not invincible


Why? Why do people care about CONCORD? If you want to live your pirate life, don't go to High sec and live it in Low sec and 00 sec, where you are supposed to live. We already had a weak CONCORD once and it was not enough to keep the player's extremes at bay. If you want to live extremes, live where you are supposed to live and where you have all the tools and mechanics at your finger tips to live them.

Industrialists are encouraged to set out to Low sec and 00 sec with Crius and Kronos and expansions to come, and what do PVPers want? They want to go back to High sec. This is nutty.


its more of a thrill, go to highsec and gank shiney ships and atleast have a chance of getting away or chased like a boss.

anyway ill stop this now as its the op's thread Big smile

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#73 - 2014-06-18 12:35:54 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:

its more of a thrill, go to highsec and gank shiney ships and atleast have a chance of getting away or chased like a boss.

anyway ill stop this now as its the op's thread Big smile


Wow, killing a multi-billion ISK HerpDerp lead-brain in High sec is an accomplishment for you? I could now say that I feel sorry for you, but was once told not to lie too obviously.

An accomplishment is the kill of a ratting carrier in 00 sec under the incapable watching eyes of his friendly locals, or the murder of a mission carrier in Low sec. Or killing of a gate camp in your solo ship (duo ship for good measure). Accomplishment is the murder of a bigger fleet than yours in a couple of cruisers (whether they are OP or not is a different story. Kudoz to Camel Empire, I mean you. Blink). These things, among others, are accomplishments. Killing a mining barge in High sec or ganking terrible ship with terribly overpriced and wrong modules from a person who cannot even find his butt with his own two hands is not an accomplishment (even though it's fun and saddening to watch at the same time).

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2014-06-18 12:52:10 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
its more of a thrill, go to highsec and gank shiney ships and atleast have a chance of getting away or chased like a boss.

anyway ill stop this now as its the op's thread Big smile
You are all very welcome to post, whether in favor or not! Big smile

With NPC Police removed, I can see a scenario where neg status players undock a shiny in highsec, for the dual purpose of:

- running some L4 missions

- baiting other players to attack them.

What happens from there would be entirely up to the players themselves.


@Rivr Luzade
You're welcome to post as well, but you seem to be just repeating yourself. You think 'good' pvp (whatever that means to you) cannot happen in highsec. That's fine, but please accept other players may have different opinions.

Also, though you have been playing for far longer than me, can you honestly say you have fully experienced every form of PVP with every class of ship in every possible scenario?

If this is your main, your very few losses suggest that you haven't done much against-the-odds soloing, for example. That's one of the things that could be done by a neg status player in a highsec without FacPo. Is that 'bad' PVP?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Lan Wang
African Atomic.
Dreadnought Diplomacy.
#75 - 2014-06-18 12:55:58 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:

its more of a thrill, go to highsec and gank shiney ships and atleast have a chance of getting away or chased like a boss.

anyway ill stop this now as its the op's thread Big smile


Wow, killing a multi-billion ISK HerpDerp lead-brain in High sec is an accomplishment for you? I could now say that I feel sorry for you, but was once told not to lie too obviously.

An accomplishment is the kill of a ratting carrier in 00 sec under the incapable watching eyes of his friendly locals, or the murder of a mission carrier in Low sec. Or killing of a gate camp in your solo ship (duo ship for good measure). Accomplishment is the murder of a bigger fleet than yours in a couple of cruisers (whether they are OP or not is a different story. Kudoz to Camel Empire, I mean you. Blink). These things, among others, are accomplishments. Killing a mining barge in High sec or ganking terrible ship with terribly overpriced and wrong modules from a person who cannot even find his butt with his own two hands is not an accomplishment (even though it's fun and saddening to watch at the same time).


not really an accomplishment rivr just fun really and everyone needs to make isk somehow, afterall thats what pirates do isnt it find expensive stuff to steal? and heist ships, chased from the rich locations by police, there is a difference between an accomplishment and a thrill.

what makes a ratting carrier in null-sec less of a lead brain than a billion isk mining barge in highsec, your going to drop 30-40 ships on the carrier anyway so this could be considered just as less as an accomplishment?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#76 - 2014-06-18 13:37:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Lan Wang wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:

His blah..

My Blah...


not really an accomplishment rivr just fun really and everyone needs to make isk somehow, afterall thats what pirates do isnt it find expensive stuff to steal? and heist ships, chased from the rich locations by police, there is a difference between an accomplishment and a thrill.

what makes a ratting carrier in null-sec less of a lead brain than a billion isk mining barge in highsec, your going to drop 30-40 ships on the carrier anyway so this could be considered just as less as an accomplishment?


Then don't complain if CONCORD gets in your way, if you need to do your heist in High sec. Roll Taking the police away and giving this task to players is ludicrous for High sec. People can do that as much as they want there already, and even more so in Low sec and 00 sec with the freedom they enjoy there. How well that usually works is known far and wide. Roll

There's also more than enough thrill in Low sec and 00 sec.

There's not much of a difference between the recent NA. multi carrier derp (you know which) and the recent Moa Officer spawn in High sec (you know which. But there are accomplishments, or at least hard-earned(ish) victories, like a Kadeshi carrier that was ambushed by SOLAR and took a couple of SOLAR vessels with him. And we also do not drop 30-40 people on carriers usually (in case of my example of ratting/mission carriers, fleet fights are something different).

Edit:
Kill Mail links removed. Blink

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#77 - 2014-06-18 13:46:56 UTC
Hey, I hate being the forum police, but the thread is not about removing, weakening or substituting CONCORD, get over it, if you wanna fight each other, do it elsewhere, I heard the cold of space is good for that.

And besides that, posting of killmails is forbidden by the rules, no matter how you dress them up or how nice they are Pirate
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2014-06-18 13:49:32 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
With NPC Police removed, I can see a scenario where neg status players undock a shiny in highsec, for the dual purpose of:

- running some L4 missions

- baiting other players to attack them.

What happens from there would be entirely up to the players themselves.


I'd lay isk on nothing, like I said.

Next time you're in high sec and you see a flashy yellow (who isnt travelling), fire up Dscan - most of the don't even bother to hide the logi army behind them. Usually an orca too, to flip to a better ship from the ubertanked one they are baiting in.

Now, whilst I have nothing against such a manoeuvres - it means that the overwhelming smart money ignores anything that is flashy in high sec. You have a far better shot of a fairer fight in low/null in my experience.


Anyway, the tldr version is flashy yellows have ruined peoples attitudes/willingness to have a pop for everyone.

I'm sure someone will say that's carebearing or being a coward - however the reality is that it is just as stupid as knowingly jumping into a huge gate camp in a slow ship.
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory
#79 - 2014-06-18 14:25:54 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Simple suggestion, really.

Ditch NPC police attacking negative sec status players in highsec.

Instead, make negative sec status players legal targets in highsec, maintaining the current progression (-2.0 in 1.0, -2.5 in 0.9 and so on, until -5.0 freely engageable anywhere). EDIT: this is already the case.


Why?

To allow lowsec PVPers to go to highsec, shoot at eachother or get shot at by highseccers (if they can manage it Pirate).

More content in highsec, while maintaining the current 'safety' mechanics for any player with sec status above -2.0.


UPDATE for clarity:

- CONCORD mechanics would remain exactly the same.

- Faction Navy mechanics would remain exactly the same (attacking enemy militiamen and players with low faction standings).



This basically is a good idea because it gives power to people to take care of people that have bad security status. I think this will help with ganking too... Why? Because you might not be able to touch the scanner alt, but the ganker with bad sec status would be able to be attacked immediately prior to the gank and without me getting flagged and attacked by concord.

Live and die by the sword. Cause and effect. You act bad you get bad things happening. You act good, you get good things happening.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#80 - 2014-06-18 16:18:27 UTC
Xaldafax Caerleon wrote:
This basically is a good idea because it gives power to people to take care of people that have bad security status. I think this will help with ganking too... Why? Because you might not be able to touch the scanner alt, but the ganker with bad sec status would be able to be attacked immediately prior to the gank and without me getting flagged and attacked by concord.

Live and die by the sword. Cause and effect. You act bad you get bad things happening. You act good, you get good things happening.


Rivr Luzade wrote:

And what kind of change is that? If you are negative sec status, you can already be engaged by all players. (Almost) No one does it ... except for the NPC police force.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.