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Get Rid of Learning Implants?

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Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2014-06-15 08:57:55 UTC
The lower level implants are actually the real problem, a new player can't afford to not use +4s when they have no skills, but at the same time they can't afford to lose them, which means they can't go PvP in a cheap frigate or cruiser in lowsec.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-06-15 09:16:52 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
The lower level implants are actually the real problem, a new player can't afford to not use +4s when they have no skills, but at the same time they can't afford to lose them, which means they can't go PvP in a cheap frigate or cruiser in lowsec.


I've never yet used above +3's and have had no problem training up a shitload of skills. Implants are fine it is peoples perception that they need loads of SP and they need them NOW that is skewed...
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#83 - 2014-06-15 23:06:58 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
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Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.

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Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-06-15 23:46:36 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
The lower level implants are actually the real problem, a new player can't afford to not use +4s when they have no skills, but at the same time they can't afford to lose them, which means they can't go PvP in a cheap frigate or cruiser in lowsec.


I've never yet used above +3's and have had no problem training up a shitload of skills. Implants are fine it is peoples perception that they need loads of SP and they need them NOW that is skewed...

What he said is true for a lot of people. Learning implants are not just an option for a lot of people because of the huge time requirements for skills. The problem is you can't change people's perceptions...

But you can change the game mechanics.

A loss in this game is more than just losing your ship. You lose your Ship, Modules, Rigs, mandatory learning implants and however expensive your clone is.

Maybe if the losses weren't so extreme there'd be a sizable shift in overall pvp willingness. Which i think would be good for the game.

Learning implants and clone costs need to go or change to not be so restrictive.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#85 - 2014-06-16 05:01:41 UTC
I doubt that most people who stay docked up in stations have +5's, other than those guys who have year or two long skill plans. +2'a and +3's are the norm. +5's too expensive for pvp. I don't see why learning implants should be removed. They do their job quite well. I also don't see how the op's docking undocking in a lessor learning implant set is any different from the guy who decides not to pvp in a frigate with a full set of slaves. There is no max reward vs risk. You can and quite often will be podded and loose any implants you may have. If someone's docked, then you cant do anything to them anyway. So now what? Prevent people with Learning implants from docking? Blow up the station? Cant. Leave it be.

The only people this benefits would be those who have already invested the x years of sp and dont care anymore.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#86 - 2014-06-16 05:09:15 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:

BTW, in contrast to your examples for change requests, the removal of learning implants would not harm any part of New Eden's population.


Well, except, you know, the people who sell those.

It's not like they come from nowhere and cost nothing, you realize. Implants are a fairly important part of the LP economy.

Accepted. They can be replaced by learning boosters with limited duration (e.g. weeks)



Did we not already have these? I believe they were called combat accelerators. Although they would stop working after your character was x weeks old.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-06-16 05:11:11 UTC
The last pod I lost 6 months ago had +4s and I never bothered putting them back, just plugged in some random 2s and 3s that were sitting around.

Seriously, does it really matter if you take 2 or 3 weeks longer over a year to train? If you are that obsessed with your SP just buy a trained character at the bazaar.

The SP minigame is stupid and should not be encouraged.
Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#88 - 2014-06-16 05:19:36 UTC
Torsnk wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Torsnk wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
tl;dr: Mags is right (as usual). If you're not undocking because of your implants, you wouldn't have undocked without them.


Your statement is false. I log in, clone jump (to a +4 clone as opposed to the +5) THEN undock.


Surely this just shows that the jump clone functionality works as designed? You made a choice based upon risk to jump into a lower values clone and have lower benefits from it, then jump back to the more expensive clone when that risk has passed? In all cases the functionality is working correctly here...


The "functionality" of jump cloning to a less expensive clone works just fine (which is not the purpose of this post to debate). However, this "functionality" doesn't add any enjoyment to the game.

Question:

1. How does it improve your gaming experience to have folks remain docked in order to protect their +5 learning implants?


1. Sure it does, you can enjoy other peoples raging at you in local for not undocking so you can be ganked by 5+ of their corp mates. I mean really, people stay docked for various reasons.

2.Go find the 50,000 other people who are undocked in their +3's and what not.. I don't believe that we should be forcing anyone in eve to play the way that we want them to.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2014-06-16 05:41:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
The last pod I lost 6 months ago had +4s and I never bothered putting them back, just plugged in some random 2s and 3s that were sitting around.

Seriously, does it really matter if you take 2 or 3 weeks longer over a year to train? If you are that obsessed with your SP just buy a trained character at the bazaar.

The SP minigame is stupid and should not be encouraged.


When you already have a bunch of SP? No, it doesn't. When you're just starting, have no SP, and can't do **** in this game other than sacrificial tackle, it's a big deal. Do you have any idea how useless T1 lasers and ACs are? A little offtopic, but I'm also thinking the reason Gallente is the most popular PvP race by far is because their weapon systems are the only ones that are even remotely functional at T1, which means everyone starts out with them.

The +3 and +4 stat implants are IMHO the #1 problem that railroads new players into going PvE-only and then predictably quitting because the PvE is so boring. I am very much of the opinion that everyone should just get +4 to all stats, and that stats on genolutions/pirate implants should be removed entirely. The current +5s can then be left in the game as +1s.

Jump clones only let you PvP once every 24 hours and you also have to grind up the 8.0 standing to set them up at all, not a trivial task for a new player.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2014-06-16 06:43:26 UTC
Xequecal wrote:


When you already have a bunch of SP? No, it doesn't. When you're just starting, have no SP, and can't do **** in this game other than sacrificial tackle, it's a big deal. Do you have any idea how useless T1 lasers and ACs are? A little offtopic, but I'm also thinking the reason Gallente is the most popular PvP race by far is because their weapon systems are the only ones that are even remotely functional at T1, which means everyone starts out with them.

The +3 and +4 stat implants are IMHO the #1 problem that railroads new players into going PvE-only and then predictably quitting because the PvE is so boring. I am very much of the opinion that everyone should just get +4 to all stats, and that stats on genolutions/pirate implants should be removed entirely. The current +5s can then be left in the game as +1s.

Jump clones only let you PvP once every 24 hours and you also have to grind up the 8.0 standing to set them up at all, not a trivial task for a new player.



Unless you have fallen for the "I want a battleship so I can play for free running level IV missions" trap there is actually quite a lot you can do with low XP including Assault Frigates, Interceptors even Covops and in particular bombers. I spend more time runnning around lowsec in alts with 6 or 8 weeks training then I do in my main.

As for jump clones, you can get them anytime you like by taking advantage of free jump clone services like Estel Arador. When I first started I got my first jump clone after only 3 weeks of play.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2014-06-16 10:38:26 UTC
Torsnk wrote:
Like a lot of folks, I have a dedicated clone with +5 learning implants for every attribute. This clone is parked in a secure high-sec station and never undocks.

I consider myself a fairly casual player (I play only once or twice a week). When I do play, I jump to a clone with two +4 implants (int/mem currently as that is in accordance with my year long skill plan). During these periods, I spend the overwhelming majority of my time PvP'ing, and as such never risk the +5 implant clone by undocking. Once my time is up, I jump back to my +5 clone in a safe and secure station and log off.

This situation works alright for someone like me: I can afford to have an all +5 implant clone and I am a fairly casual player.

However, I really don't think it adds much to the game. It is detrimental to people who just generally want to actually play the game more often, as opposed to spending most of the time sitting in station soaking up the 45 Skill Points/minute.

As such, I am fundamentally against learning implants because they disincentivize players from undocking and engaging with other players. This is not good for the game.

Also: I understand the importance of risk vs. reward, and I feel strongly that other forms of implants should continue to exist (for combat boosts, mining boosts, etc.). The difference is those implants are useful when you actually undock and play. Learning implants are just as effective docked as they are undocked. As such, if they are expensive enough (in the case of +5s) they motivate people to remain docked and discontinue gameplay.

My proposed solution: Get rid of all learning implants and increase the base attribute points for all players from 17 to 22 (+5 across the board). We can still have neural remapping, because it rewards a well thought out plan. Removing the implants will encourage gameplay, generate more content, and will enrich the gaming experience.


You are askign CCP to solve a problem that is Yours.. and its called cowardice!

The most expensive implants are made for PVP even!! If iut is too much for you then use only +4 implants. I kept my WHOLE eve career on +3 implants and that was never a drawback.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#92 - 2014-06-16 11:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Hasikan Miallok wrote:


Unless you have fallen for the "I want a battleship so I can play for free running level IV missions" trap there is actually quite a lot you can do with low XP including Assault Frigates, Interceptors even Covops and in particular bombers. I spend more time runnning around lowsec in alts with 6 or 8 weeks training then I do in my main.

As for jump clones, you can get them anytime you like by taking advantage of free jump clone services like Estel Arador. When I first started I got my first jump clone after only 3 weeks of play.



they won't realize this till there, sadly. At 5 years in I enjoy the smaller "crap" rides than I do the bigger toys.


Can't say I was not like them, well except for the fact I was happy with +3's, got me where I needed to be tbh. Quite funny story actually is I was bs'ing with corpmates on an op once in corp chat. Saying just 1 more week guys, you got another fleet bs pilot to join the fight. A bitter said "man, enjoy your time last week in bc's, the BS's aren't all you think they are." Not being sure if he was just being nice cause I was lower sp, smart ass or genuine I trudged on.

And after I saw the grandeur that is BS warfare for a few weeks....I realized he was being genuine. The thrill of switch to pos ov tab, uncap mod 1,2,3,4.....was not the be all end all I made it out to be. Nor was primary is player x, secondary is player y, tertiary is player z. After a month of damn near solid pos ops some guy said its a pos free night guys.....x up for suicide frig roam, maybe cruisers if you can afford the loss as I have no plans to FC this with the intent of bringing it back alive. It was the first time in a month I enjoyed playing eve tbh. Went to cheap implants (+3's, no hardwires) and had a blast till I went boom.

Why I always say, a good night of pvp will have you not even sweating lost training time.

While not enough in this game as to put eve on the level of sex personally....an analogy would be it be be like turning down overtime at work to rush home and get some loving. Got 2 choices here...enjoy the loving or be there going man...I'd rather work the overtime. If the latter is happening you either need to find a better partner, or stop being that focused on work and enjoy the ride as it were lol.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2014-06-16 11:53:14 UTC
Xequecal wrote:


The +3 and +4 stat implants are IMHO the #1 problem that railroads new players into going PvE-only and then predictably quitting because the PvE is so boring. I am very much of the opinion that everyone should just get +4 to all stats, and that stats on genolutions/pirate implants should be removed entirely. The current +5s can then be left in the game as +1s.


+3's are relatively cheap and here's an idea...a tutorial mission that teaches players to get their pod out when the ship explodes...it's not difficult.

Here's the gist for any new players reading. You know you are scrammed, you know you can't escape so align to a safe spot/gate you can run through and then keep hitting the 's' key (that's the warp hot key). Remember when you get to the gate (if you chose that) you are warping to it not jumping through so select to jump through gate whilst in flight. Now run like hell for home and you should save your pod.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#94 - 2014-06-16 11:56:17 UTC
Xequecal wrote:

When you already have a bunch of SP? No, it doesn't. When you're just starting, have no SP, and can't do **** in this game other than sacrificial tackle, it's a big deal. Do you have any idea how useless T1 lasers and ACs are? A little offtopic, but I'm also thinking the reason Gallente is the most popular PvP race by far is because their weapon systems are the only ones that are even remotely functional at T1, which means everyone starts out with them.


That's because both of those weapon systems desperately need rebalanced. You are right, T1 lasers and T1 autocannons are worthless.

But that has nothing to do with this, if you ask me. +5s shaving a dozen hours off of training for T2 pulse lasers is NOT going to help a new player. Nevermind how he could have afforded them in the first place.

Rebalancing them so that their T1 versions aren't worthless would go a long way further, if helping newbies is your intent.


Quote:

The +3 and +4 stat implants are IMHO the #1 problem that railroads new players into going PvE-only and then predictably quitting because the PvE is so boring. I am very much of the opinion that everyone should just get +4 to all stats, and that stats on genolutions/pirate implants should be removed entirely. The current +5s can then be left in the game as +1s.

Jump clones only let you PvP once every 24 hours and you also have to grind up the 8.0 standing to set them up at all, not a trivial task for a new player.


If you ask me, the real problem with new players being railroaded into PvE is that new players start in highsec and in NPC corps. There, the weight of the voices they are going to hear is from the kind of people who stay in NPC corps and live in highsec.

Those people are filled to bursting with "you can't", and "you have to", and in order to not explode, they have to spew it all onto anyone they meet. They infect new players with this nonsense. That's why people get burned out, because you have jackasses outright telling them to do the things that don't lead anywhere.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#95 - 2014-06-16 13:40:06 UTC
I don't get how this was lost in the noise so I'll say it again....

Learning implants allow new players to earn more isk quickly, and jump clones allow them to protect their learning implants so they don't have to risk an expensive investment to enjoy PvP.

PvP cost is not punitive if you make a lot of isk. How do you make a lot of isk without spending a lot of time devoting your gameplay to that? Training skills that allow you to make isk quick. Market skills, PI, exploration skills, whatever. Money comes in, new players feel space-rich, they buy ships and fly like drunken monkeys. I know I do.

It's all win. People who hide in the station snuggling their +5's weren't going to leave it regardless of their implants because if they didn't have the expensive implants they weren't willing to risk they'd have an expensive ship they weren't willing to risk, or faction/deadspace modules they weren't willing to risk, etc.... One monetary excuse is as good as another and the isk was going to be spent one way or another.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

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Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#96 - 2014-06-17 01:56:29 UTC
Most people who start this game off don't even know what the **** a jump clone is, nor are most aware that implants exist. Most don't even understand how the initial attributes we select affect training time among many many many other things.

If they do now, either:

1. A friend invited them to play
or
2, They're an alt.

Lets face it, there are guys who play this game that have 20 or more alts. I mean, the dedication some people show to alt farming is just amazing.........


Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#97 - 2014-06-17 02:05:24 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:

BTW, in contrast to your examples for change requests, the removal of learning implants would not harm any part of New Eden's population.


Well, except, you know, the people who sell those.

It's not like they come from nowhere and cost nothing, you realize. Implants are a fairly important part of the LP economy.

Accepted. They can be replaced by learning boosters with limited duration (e.g. weeks)


That would be even better. I desperately need to see the screaming and crying that takes place on the forums on behalf of 'new players' after the old players get done determining the market price of learning aids with a time limit on them.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#98 - 2014-06-17 02:08:13 UTC
Vincintius Agrippa wrote:
Most people who start this game off don't even know what the **** a jump clone is, nor are most aware that implants exist. Most don't even understand how the initial attributes we select affect training time among many many many other things.

If they do now, either:

1. A friend invited them to play
or
2, They're an alt.

Lets face it, there are guys who play this game that have 20 or more alts. I mean, the dedication some people show to alt farming is just amazing.........




Jump clones were on my radar within my first week. It's a pretty obvious feature in Eve that opens a lot of doors for new players. If you don't learn about jump clones within your first couple months I would have to question whether you're actively playing or napping at the keyboard in an asteroid field.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#99 - 2014-06-17 02:08:36 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
How do you make a lot of isk without spending a lot of time devoting your gameplay to that?


Buy PLEX from CCP and sell it on the in-game market. No gameplay required.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#100 - 2014-06-17 02:26:04 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:
How do you make a lot of isk without spending a lot of time devoting your gameplay to that?


Buy PLEX from CCP and sell it on the in-game market. No gameplay required.



Also the method of nancies, pantywaisters, and slugabeds. A lot of people prefer the satisfaction that comes with knowing that you worked hard to earn the tens or hundreds of millions of isk that just went pop.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.