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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

First post First post First post
Author
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3181 - 2014-06-10 12:29:36 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Try a few Guristas missions with the Geckos. They get utterly bogged down on those.


How exactly? My Mission running 'Snake is having no problems at all with Guristas missions at all
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3182 - 2014-06-10 12:42:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
But only if you actually know how to fly a ship in EVE online.


Apparently this is a dying art.....
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3183 - 2014-06-10 14:26:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
Fozzie and Rise, you told us that Rattlesnake was underutilized in EVE and you wanted to give it some love.

Well, you just made it even more useless than it was before. Now we've got a battleship that's useless anything smaller than a battleship in PvE and still worthless in PvP. Congratulations! Love you guys!

In any scenario that you'd like to engage frigates, guess what: There are T1 battleships with cheaper price tags that can do the job. And the so called love for Rattlesnake's DPS is only incremental and is the case when you fit missiles that cannot for the love of God hope to hit smaller than a battleship.

Please stop ~balancing~ ships according to whatever honorablu elite PvP mindset you guys had from before your CCP careers and find something else in EVE to change for the sake of change, TIA.


It's hard to see how anyone who plays a game about creativity can be this uncreative. While "congratulating" CCP for something you should congratulate your self for not being able to figure out how to use obvious buffs.

Like the fact that the RS can mount ANY missile launcher and get a bonus to kin and therm missiles, not just cruises. You can mount RHMLs, RLMLs, hell even regular HMLs and such on it and kill small stuff easily. For PVE you never ever have to use anything else but RHMLs with FoF missiles and they will sweep up all the small npcs while you control your drones and shoot BS.

Or how the RS has sooo many mid slots that adding mods to help tracking (or speed for non-sentries) is easy to do. Add to this the fact that GECKOS (super heavy drones that have superior base tracking and speed) exist along with target painters and such means that RS pilots don't HAVE to ever deploy light drones to kill small stuff again.

Like I said, it amazes me that people can miss the point this badly. The Guristas ships are pure monsters now. But only if you actually know how to fly a ship in EVE online.


Apologies, my friend. But it is so obvious that you don't know what you are talking about.

First of all, in order to get the ~buffed Rattlesnake DPS~, you need to fit AT LEAST heavy missile launchers. Ideally, you'd be going for Cruise Missiles.

But hey, surprise! You aren't going to hit anything under battlecruiser size for good damage with those! And that only leaves you with one choice and one choice only: Light Missiles, which do laughable all around damage.

Mid-slots for target painters you say? Well, hello my friend, this is a shield tanking battleship that focuses on drones! You are going to use those mid slots for more optimal modules for tanking that rat DPS and providing tracking or range bonuses to your drones! And even with a target painter, good luck hitting a fast frigate for even mediocre damage with those cruise missiles of yours!

Oh, were you planning to say easy, deploy your light scouts to get rid of the frigates? Sure, but for that you gotta pull your other drones in first, and if you happen to carry the optimal damage type racial drone because you know, NOW YOU HAVE A GUTTED DRONE BAY, maybe you can hope to kill those pesky frigates with light scouts which receive NO BONUSES AT ALL.

And for your insistence on 'use Geckos' circlejerk, perhaps you'd do well to realize with the GUTTED bandwidth that Rattlesnake has, you cannot even deploy two Geckos. Yes, that is right. You can only deploy one. With all those ~buffed bonuses~, a single Gecko understandably performs poorly.

What we have here is a pirate battleship that is shadowed in nearly all aspects by a T2 cruiser such as Ishtar. Even a VNI can match and even exceed Rattlesnake's drone DPS now, heavies/sentries or not.

By the way, have you realized that you cannot even deploy a full flight of light scout drones on a Gila anymore? Yes, you are only able to deploy four! Why? Because Fozzie and Rise buffed it! Right!

Pretty much the only real buff that was needed for Gurista line was received by Worm. Whereas only an EVE player with a rotten potato as a brain would fly a Worm before Kronos, now it has become an actually competent frigate, bettering some of the most popular assault frigates.

Have you guys paid attention to how often CCP Rise mentions how he pays attention to avoid 'breaking the rules' during his coverage of these so called buffs? I believe he has a set of mythical rules in his head that truly motivates him behave in a manner much akin to King Midas in reverse: Everything he touches turns to brown colored waste.

I deduce that just because he was keen on doing solo-centric PvP before the advent of his CCP career, he must be having this wrong notion in his head that everything that bothered him as a solo-centric PvP must dictate a set of legendary and mythical rules that everything in EVE revolves around.

Can either Fozzie or Rise explain here the logic to making Rattlesnake an even more niche role filling ship in order to alleviate the real concern that Rattlesnake was underused in EVE and needed much necessary love?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#3184 - 2014-06-10 16:38:01 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
-snip-
Like I said, it amazes me that people can miss the point this badly. The Guristas ships are pure monsters now. But only if you actually know how to fly a ship in EVE online.


Shh.... you were not supposed to tell anyone.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#3185 - 2014-06-10 16:42:36 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
-some wall of text that I didn't need to read and noone else should either -


Oh dear,
you sound almost experienced.

Let's try another approach,
if you do not like it, do not despair. Nobody forces you to fly the ship, except your alliance buddies but that may be the story of another day.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#3186 - 2014-06-10 16:44:54 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
-some wall of text that I didn't need to read and noone else should either -


Oh dear,
you sound almost experienced.

Let's try another approach,
if you do not like it, do not despair. Nobody forces you to fly the ship. So feel free, little bird, and fly a different ship.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3187 - 2014-06-10 17:51:31 UTC
Someone has never used RHMLs.

And DPS is an 'advisory' number (how you know an EFT-warrior is when they think "dps means everything"). If you need sub BS application, you use sub-BS missiles.

Quote:

But hey, surprise! You aren't going to hit anything under battlecruiser size for good damage with those! And that only leaves you with one choice and one choice only: Light Missiles, which do laughable all around damage.


The funny thing about a dude telling you that you don't know anything is when they dude demonstrates that in addition to never having used RHMLs, he's also never used TARGET PAINTERS or RIGORs either lol.

All moot, because you should be shooting missiles at small ships when you have access to mods for your drones like omnidirectional tracking links/enhancers.

Quote:

Mid-slots for target painters you say? Well, hello my friend, this is a shield tanking battleship that focuses on drones! You are going to use those mid slots for more optimal modules for tanking that rat DPS and providing tracking or range bonuses to your drones! And even with a target painter, good luck hitting a fast frigate for even mediocre damage with those cruise missiles of yours!


And then the Pièce de résistance, , Alp Khan doesn't know how monstrously Target painters Help GECKOS lol.

This illustrates the problem. You don't know how to fit or fly a ship in EVE, yet rather than fix your internal problem you get all snarky at the CCP guys who have delivers to us Guristas line ships that are superior to the old versions.

It's just dumb man, sorry to have to say it. But you should learn how to play before making snide remarks.

How is it that most of us aren't having problems turning the RS into a slaughter machine while you shoot unassisted cruise missiles at frigates?

Quote:

Oh, were you planning to say easy, deploy your light scouts to get rid of the frigates? Sure, but for that you gotta pull your other drones in first, and if you happen to carry the optimal damage type racial drone because you know, NOW YOU HAVE A GUTTED DRONE BAY, maybe you can hope to kill those pesky frigates with light scouts which receive NO BONUSES AT ALL.

And for your insistence on 'use Geckos' circlejerk, perhaps you'd do well to realize with the GUTTED bandwidth that Rattlesnake has, you cannot even deploy two Geckos. Yes, that is right. You can only deploy one. With all those ~buffed bonuses~, a single Gecko understandably performs poorly.

What we have here is a pirate battleship that is shadowed in nearly all aspects by a T2 cruiser such as Ishtar. Even a VNI can match and even exceed Rattlesnake's drone DPS now, heavies/sentries or not.


And still, 2013 thinking regarding a 2014 ship.

Who needs 2 geckos. A single gecko supported byt a Target painter, Omnidirectional link and drone nav computer (leaving you more than enough mids for tank and even a prop mod, 'Sankes have a tank bonus) is all you need to slaughter everything on the field quick. Missiles are an after thought.

The highlighted part is the worse. WHY put out weak light drones when you have one drone that can do it all better.

I'll say it again, the problem is your limited imagination here, along with limited understanding of how things work.

Answer the question I asked above: why is it most other people aren't having the problems you seem to be? Why are other people praising the guristas ships and slaughtering stuff and having fun with them? You'd have a much better time of it if you understood that you are your problem, not Fozzie and Rise.
Quote:

By the way, have you realized that you cannot even deploy a full flight of light scout drones on a Gila anymore? Yes, you are only able to deploy four! Why? Because Fozzie and Rise buffed it! Right!

Pretty much the only real buff that was needed for Gurista line was received by Worm. Whereas only an EVE player with a rotten potato as a brain would fly a Worm before Kronos, now it has become an actually competent frigate, bettering some of the most popular assault frigates.

Have you guys paid attention to how often CCP Rise mentions how he pays attention to avoid 'breaking the rules' during his coverage of these so called buffs? I believe he has a set of mythical rules in his head that truly motivates him behave in a manner much akin to King Midas in reverse: Everything he touches turns to brown colored waste.

I deduce that just because he was keen on doing solo-centric PvP before the advent of his CCP career, he must be having this wrong notion in his head that everything that bothered him as a solo-centric PvP must dictate a set of legendary and mythical rules that everything in EVE revolves around.

Can either Fozzie or Rise explain here the logic to making Rattlesnake an even more niche role filling ship in order to alleviate the real concern that Rattlesnake was underused in EVE and needed much necessary love?


Again the highlighted part shows your problem. Why in hell would anyone NEED to put out light drones from a Gila? Have you not seen why the buffer mediums do to EVERYTHING? I just have a single tracking link on my Gila and frigs don't live long enough for me to consider shooting missiles at them.

It's not some pvp conspiracy or some other nonsense. Fozzie and Rise delivered monstrously insane Guristas ships (which will probably get nerfed lol) that offer so many possibilities it's hard to wrap my head around them. Most folks see that, but some people stuck in the past and the old (dead) ways (like.....'depoloy scout drones for frigs!!!!!' like we did in 2010) can't quite grasp it.

Go look at the market, go look at how the prices of these things are rising. It should be obvious that these were great changes (that will prbably soon be nerfed because CCP hates fun ships lol
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3188 - 2014-06-10 18:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jenn genuine question, What do you do when the rats web your single gecko? I have lost three to them the first day, and do not use them on this ship any more, it does not matter if I gain full aggro and paint things, they still get switched to, and altough they are strong it just means a few more seconds of watching them die. Two Drones on the Gila solve it as the second super strong drone rips the webbers apart, but on the rattlesnake, the drones just aren't either strong or fast, and one gecko has no support at all.

I think the Gila works, but the rattlesnake just has not got the gilas drones :(
You clearly must have a solution, would you care to share it?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#3189 - 2014-06-10 18:46:27 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Jenn genuine question, What do you do when the rats web your single gecko?


Active EWAR and remote rep something drawing aggro off the gecko (I have those on so I don't take much Gecko aggro in the 1st place).

Quote:

I have lost three to them the first day, and do not use them on this ship any more, it does not matter if I gain full aggro and paint things, they still get switched to, and altough they are strong it just means a few more seconds of watching them die. Two Drones on the Gila solve it as the second super strong drone rips the webbers apart, but on the rattlesnake, the drones just aren't either strong or fast, and one gecko has no support at all.


The bolded part is IMO a big part of the problem. People quit rather than try to figure things out.. My mission Rattlesnake has a microwarp drive and an armor repper. If I found ym self in that situation where my threat generation techniques did not work (only rarely happens (then i have the option of pulsing my MWD till the drone with cruiser HP is in rep range and rep it.

Hasn't happened though, even though i've planned for it via my mission (and anom) running fits plus a working knowledge of the PVE content in general.

(as an example, in 'Gone Berserk' I MWD the RS to a middle ground area between where npcs will spawn, giving me the ability to move to support my drone if the need arises).

A lot of people fail because they are stuck in the old rut of how they used to fly ships and don't think of alternatives. This is probably why you lost 3 expensive super drones the 1st day and quit and I'm still rolling my Rattlesnake through various types of PVE content (lvl 4 missions, null sec anoms and plexes and others) and while I haven't lost a single one.

Quote:

I think the Gila works, but the rattlesnake just has not got the gilas drones :(
You clearly must have a solution, would you care to share it?


See above. Both ships work and work insanely well, you have to know how to fly them and how to keep aggro (and how to pick missions, for example 'smash the supplier' is a Gecko no-no imo though Im sure others have figured out how to succeed in that mission).
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#3190 - 2014-06-10 18:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Jenn aSide wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Jenn genuine question, What do you do when the rats web your single gecko?


Active EWAR and remote rep something drawing aggro off the gecko (I have those on so I don't take much Gecko aggro in the 1st place).

Quote:

I have lost three to them the first day, and do not use them on this ship any more, it does not matter if I gain full aggro and paint things, they still get switched to, and altough they are strong it just means a few more seconds of watching them die. Two Drones on the Gila solve it as the second super strong drone rips the webbers apart, but on the rattlesnake, the drones just aren't either strong or fast, and one gecko has no support at all.


The bolded part is IMO a big part of the problem. People quit rather than try to figure things out.. My mission Rattlesnake has a microwarp drive and an armor repper. If I found ym self in that situation where my threat generation techniques did not work (only rarely happens (then i have the option of pulsing my MWD till the drone with cruiser HP is in rep range and rep it.

Hasn't happened though, even though i've planned for it via my mission (and anom) running fits plus a working knowledge of the PVE content in general.

(as an example, in 'Gone Berserk' I MWD the RS to a middle ground area between where npcs will spawn, giving me the ability to move to support my drone if the need arises).

A lot of people fail because they are stuck in the old rut of how they used to fly ships and don't think of alternatives. This is probably why you lost 3 expensive super drones the 1st day and quit and I'm still rolling my Rattlesnake through various types of PVE content (lvl 4 missions, null sec anoms and plexes and others) and while I haven't lost a single one.

Quote:

I think the Gila works, but the rattlesnake just has not got the gilas drones :(
You clearly must have a solution, would you care to share it?


See above. Both ships work and work insanely well, you have to know how to fly them and how to keep aggro (and how to pick missions, for example 'smash the supplier' is a Gecko no-no imo though Im sure others have figured out how to succeed in that mission).


Hi Jen, no I have not given up, I have just found that two mission specific heavies do the job better with full damage to their weaknesses rather than reduced rainbow damage, the Gecko is good I find for incursions, sleepers (with great care) and PvP (something will hit the resist hole). But after losing three I realised that if they gained aggro (and they did) one drone just would be lost without any way of changing that or recovering the drone.
I have tried since and not lost them, by abandoning the drone and launching the weak lights, killing the webbers, recalling lights, and reconnecting to the gecko unable to reuse in the mission as it is too damaged, but station repairs are cheap the lights need repairing too, ......not an ideal solution, time consuming, and honestly a pain in the bum, but better than losing more. A challange with the small bay.
If you have to give up the extra launcher to fit a repper, well, then there is no reason to fly this ship at all, totally outclassed then by dominix and RNI.

Thanks for your answer though, looks like the solution is as big an issue as the original problem.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3191 - 2014-06-10 19:11:36 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
-some wall of text that I didn't need to read and noone else should either -


Oh dear,
you sound almost experienced.

Let's try another approach,
if you do not like it, do not despair. Nobody forces you to fly the ship, except your alliance buddies but that may be the story of another day.


You weren't being addressed, or mentioned in my post in the first place.

And to mirror that, do not despair and shitpost. Nobody forces you to shitpost, except well, your blessed little heart, but that may be the story of another day.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3192 - 2014-06-10 19:39:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Someone has never used RHMLs.

And DPS is an 'advisory' number (how you know an EFT-warrior is when they think "dps means everything"). If you need sub BS application, you use sub-BS missiles.


Are you blissfully ignorant, or have you found yourself as a victim of forced lobotomy lately? Or perhaps you were dropped on your head as a toddler? Why aren't you flying a T1 frigate for running L4 missions, or trying to do null anomalies in a similar low DPS ship if DPS is an advisory number and thus, irrelevant? Obviously in whichever fantasy world you must have been living, Rapid Launchers of Light and Heavy variety must have been widely adapted weapons systems instead of niche things that no one uses because their reload times and thus, damage type flexibility were nerfed to hell before uh, guess who, Fozzie & Rise?

Quote:

All moot, because you should be shooting missiles at small ships when you have access to mods for your drones like omnidirectional tracking links/enhancers.


Isn't moot at all, unless you are referring to all the nonsense you have been mumbling. Shooting missiles at small ships limits you to Light Missiles, and in combination of using sentry drones or heavy drones, or even going brain dead and following your ~genius~ suggestion of using only one Gecko gives you longer mission completion times, site completion times. Simply because with such a ******** combination, you have lower DPS and hence, utility than pre-patch Kronos Rattlesnake, or heck, even a well-fit Dominix with the best drones available!

Quote:
And then the Pièce de résistance, , Alp Khan doesn't know how monstrously Target painters Help GECKOS lol.


Well, you must really be a special kid since you've missed that you aren't able to field 2 Geckos on Rattlesnake, even though you were told before.

And no, target painters do not make your drones navigate faster suddenly even if you fly your Rattlesnake with two heavy drones like you are supposed to. (Alternatively, you can read this as target painters do not magically allow your drones of any kind to be able to hit fast frigates all of a sudden. You really should try flying the ship before making posts that show you are talking out of your ass)

Quote:
This illustrates the problem. You don't know how to fit or fly a ship in EVE, yet rather than fix your internal problem you get all snarky at the CCP guys who have delivers to us Guristas line ships that are superior to the old versions.


No, this rather illustrates that you have no idea what you are talking about and you are so ~special~ that you can persist sticking with talk coming out of a rectum despite being told objectively several times that you are wrong.

I'm in GoonWaffe if you failed to notice, you might have heard of us before. We live in Deklein right next to Venal, the home of Guristas. A very popular source of income among our membership is running Guristas anomalies, which gives us a broad knowledge of both pirate ships you can attain from Guristas and using any ships against them to make an income. In combination with my tests which involved running a variety of L4 missions with the optimal fits that leverage the new Rattlesnake's bonuses, I can only conclude that Rattlesnake changes were certainly not given the thought they should have given when such changes were proposed, and this only ended up with a pirate Battleship which is even more useless than it was before Kronos.

And that is quite ironic as Fozzie & Rise wanted to make these ship picked up and used more. How they envisaged to making it's utility even more of a niche beats me.

Quote:
It's just dumb man, sorry to have to say it. But you should learn how to play before making snide remarks.


If by dumb, you are referring to your posting here without flying the Rattlesnake first and not even noticing you cannot field two Geckos without me telling you, you really don't need to apologize. That does not offend me at all. Next time, you should actually fly the ship you intend to talk out of your ass about, this might give you some credibility.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3193 - 2014-06-10 21:32:40 UTC
Someone please explain why is missile application or light drone performance on small rats important , when one can blap them with sentries.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3194 - 2014-06-10 21:43:46 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Someone please explain why is missile application or light drone performance on small rats important , when one can blap them with sentries.


Not only that, but why would you lose 3 geckos to webbing frigs?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3195 - 2014-06-10 21:44:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Someone please explain why is missile application or light drone performance on small rats important , when one can blap them with sentries.


Not only that, but why would you lose 3 geckos to webbing frigs?


If you're trying to, to make a point.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#3196 - 2014-06-11 09:10:06 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
How exactly? My Mission running 'Snake is having no problems at all with Guristas missions at all

I was just referring to damage application with Geckos, as they don't seem to be as effective against Guristas compared to the other Pirate factions. Missiles are fine because Guristas are most vulnerable to kinetic damage.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3197 - 2014-06-13 13:35:14 UTC
I know anecdotal evidence...isn't [evidence], but I just wanted to say one thing about the changes made to the Guristas line.

I've seen more Worms, Gilas, and Rattlesnakes in the past few days than I have for the entirety of the rest of my history playing EvE. I've seen at least one every time I log in, and more than a few times I've noticed multiples in my grid when I undock.

I don't know if, in the end, the community at large will love or hate the superdrone idea. History will eventually determine that. But there's one thing I can say for certain, heroes really do exist. We've just seen one, and now he's coming home, people are interested in trying it.

Forget if the idea works or not. Forget if people love it or hate it. Forget DPS graphs and EFT fits and all the arguing. I think the most important thing is that something new, unique, and interesting was brought to the table. Win or lose, I'm happy that new and interesting ideas are making it to the game, even if in the end they don't keep it (right now it looks like they will). When something fresh is brought forward and the development team has the fortitude to give it a fair shot and do all the work to bring it to the game, that's awesome. Because when we have a development team that is willing to take chances, we all win.
Valterra Craven
#3198 - 2014-06-16 16:16:55 UTC
Well regardless of all the forum posting by everyone here, the market has spoken, the rattlesnake is already returning to its prior balance price. Color me not surprised.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3199 - 2014-06-16 16:32:47 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Well regardless of all the forum posting by everyone here, the market has spoken, the rattlesnake is already returning to its prior balance price. Color me not surprised.


There are also three times as many of them for sale as there was a week ago. Depreciation is a thing, no matter how much the agitators might want to try and correlate it with performance.

Nevermind that it's also moving units far, far faster than ever before. I bought a dozen before this thread was posted, and I have sold all but the two I use personally.

I would never have sold those before this rebalance.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kueyen
Angharradh's Aegis
#3200 - 2014-06-16 19:32:56 UTC
The Gila now exceeds 300M (same as the Stratios), 33% over the next pirate faction cruiser in line (the Vigilant), and 300% over the most expensive navy faction cruiser (Vexor N.I.). It is awesome, and the market knows it.

The Rattlesnake's dropped below 500M again, 33% under the next pirate faction battleship in line (the Machariel), and under the four most expensive navy faction battleships (Scorpion N.I., Raven N.I., Megathron N.I. and Dominix N.I.). It's crap, and the market knows it.

Until all are free...