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Dev blog: The Price of Change

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Christopher Tsutola
State Navy
#761 - 2014-06-16 15:51:29 UTC
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this (or if it has already been asked) but do you need to be in a station to bid on a "team" if so how does this work with WH space
Ray McKenna
Null Logistics Inc
#762 - 2014-06-16 16:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray McKenna
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Workforce cost :)

Aren't job costs at a POS determined by the POS owner? Or is that changing?

Christopher Tsutola wrote:
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this (or if it has already been asked) but do you need to be in a station to bid on a "team" if so how does this work with WH space

Should not need to be in a station, WH folks get to bid on them too. Its system wide, not station.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#763 - 2014-06-16 16:09:43 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


You can do it, I believe in you.


2536236015 total manufacturing job minutes over 28 days, assuming we've extracted the correct numbers, and with caveats that jobs starting either side of the period can spill in/out in somewhat unintuitive ways. If you need more info or other numbers, ask and I'll see if I can find answers.

Fluffy Monkei wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:



Question for clarification. Is the "build cost bonus" a reduction in the materials needed for production (material cost reduction) or a reduction in the workforce cost?

Because really a 21% material reduction for BS at POS would be game breaking but a 21% workforce cost reduction would be cool. At one point you where talking about a 2% material cost reduction for POS manufacturing, but in most of the DEV Blogs about the new industry the "cost reductions" are talking about workforce cost reductions. It would be good to get some clarification so I know what to expect.


Workforce cost :)


Oh dear. A "build cost bonus" suddenly turns into a reduction in ONE of the taxes. All of sudden building in POS arrays becomes far less palatable an idea.

I noticed you didn't comment on my comments and idea. I apologise for being direct but what I said was essentially the truth. Ricky Warwick of The Almighty once said something about the truth at Castle Donington..........

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#764 - 2014-06-16 16:13:18 UTC
Ray McKenna wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Workforce cost :)

Aren't job costs at a POS determined by the POS owner? Or is that changing?

Christopher Tsutola wrote:
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this (or if it has already been asked) but do you need to be in a station to bid on a "team" if so how does this work with WH space

Should not need to be in a station, WH folks get to bid on them too. Its system wide, not station.


Workforce cost is one of many taxes that will be applied . Best to reread the applicable dev blogs. I think the charges or taxes you refer to ie POS owner charging for use of POS arrays are being stopped. I might be wrong on that point.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Christopher Tsutola
State Navy
#765 - 2014-06-16 16:31:58 UTC
Christopher Tsutola wrote:
Not sure if this is the right place to ask this (or if it has already been asked) but do you need to be in a station to bid on a "team" if so how does this work with WH space

Should not need to be in a station, WH folks get to bid on them too. Its system wide, not station.[/quote]

Thx I knew it was system wide i was just worried the interface to bid on them may have only been put into the station. I was also would like to know what happens if no one bids on a team are there just teams with default stats placed there?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#766 - 2014-06-16 16:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
You do not need to be in station to bid on a team. I've done it on Sisi. The bidding interface is a part of the new S&I interface.

Job costs are determined by the local system tax rate, less your POS bonuses. Stacking POS arrays will give greater bonuses. Exactly what the cost reduction is depends on the array type and number of arrays online.

The POS array slot configuration menu has been removed pending a POS revamp, since you can only tax your own corp from the corp wallet.

There is a default team in every system.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#767 - 2014-06-17 07:05:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Seith Kali
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If you need more info or other numbers, ask and I'll see if I can find answers.


Thanks very much for this. I *think* the main thing we are still missing is the detail of how the ME skill caps the multi-run bonus, so far we just know that it does, somehow.

If this has been mentioned anywhere, sorry, I missed it!

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Rust Connor
Industrias PapaCapim
#768 - 2014-06-17 13:47:24 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


You can do it, I believe in you.


2536236015 total manufacturing job minutes over 28 days, assuming we've extracted the correct numbers, and with caveats that jobs starting either side of the period can spill in/out in somewhat unintuitive ways. If you need more info or other numbers, ask and I'll see if I can find answers.



Hmmmmmmm...
Thats 63000 lines running 24h/day.....that's right?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#769 - 2014-06-17 14:50:25 UTC
Rust Connor wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


You can do it, I believe in you.


2536236015 total manufacturing job minutes over 28 days, assuming we've extracted the correct numbers, and with caveats that jobs starting either side of the period can spill in/out in somewhat unintuitive ways. If you need more info or other numbers, ask and I'll see if I can find answers.



Hmmmmmmm...
Thats 63000 lines running 24h/day.....that's right?



That's only 6300 characters running jobs all the time. Or 2100 accounts. It's far from impossible.

2.5 billion minutes a month. Says something about the scale of industry.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#770 - 2014-06-17 20:44:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:

Structure Type || Percentage Bonus Per Structure || Current Max Bonus
Advanced Small Ship Assembly, Small Ship Assembly 1% 27%
Capital Ship Assembly 5% 15%
Drug Lab, Ammunition Assembly, Drone Assembly, Component Assembly, Equipment Assembly, Rapid Equipment Assembly 0.5% 25%
Laboratory 1.5% 22.5%
Large Ship Assembly, Advanced Large Ship Assembly, X-Large Ship Assembly 3% 21%
Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Ship Assembly, Subsystem Assembly 2% 26%

Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


Wait, Did you say that anchoring multiple of the same POS module will add no additional fuel load? What do you mean by that? just that POS fuel does not change, as it is now, or that having multiple arrays, you will only have to cover the CPU/PWG for one?
If you can anchor and online 10 arrays for the fuel cost of one, then yes it is not game breaking to have them affect the reduction regardless of if they are online. You can anchor unlimited amount of arrays at even a small POS, but onlining them is a different story, each needs power, and CPU only when online. Can we anchor multiple arrays without the CPU, power grid load? Or were you just referring to the fuel block consumption not changing regardless of how many POS modules are online?

For it to not be game breaking having arrays that are anchored, but not online, affect the bonuses, it would have to not cost anything to online those exrta modules. otherwise you could just anchor a small tower, and anchor 50 arrays around it, with only one online, and get max bonuses, without any extra POS load, and the fuel cost of a small tower, rather than a large that can actually support the extra modules.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#771 - 2014-06-18 08:40:49 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:

Structure Type || Percentage Bonus Per Structure || Current Max Bonus
Advanced Small Ship Assembly, Small Ship Assembly 1% 27%
Capital Ship Assembly 5% 15%
Drug Lab, Ammunition Assembly, Drone Assembly, Component Assembly, Equipment Assembly, Rapid Equipment Assembly 0.5% 25%
Laboratory 1.5% 22.5%
Large Ship Assembly, Advanced Large Ship Assembly, X-Large Ship Assembly 3% 21%
Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Ship Assembly, Subsystem Assembly 2% 26%

Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


Wait, Did you say that anchoring multiple of the same POS module will add no additional fuel load? What do you mean by that? just that POS fuel does not change, as it is now, or that having multiple arrays, you will only have to cover the CPU/PWG for one?
If you can anchor and online 10 arrays for the fuel cost of one, then yes it is not game breaking to have them affect the reduction regardless of if they are online. You can anchor unlimited amount of arrays at even a small POS, but onlining them is a different story, each needs power, and CPU only when online. Can we anchor multiple arrays without the CPU, power grid load? Or were you just referring to the fuel block consumption not changing regardless of how many POS modules are online?

For it to not be game breaking having arrays that are anchored, but not online, affect the bonuses, it would have to not cost anything to online those exrta modules. otherwise you could just anchor a small tower, and anchor 50 arrays around it, with only one online, and get max bonuses, without any extra POS load, and the fuel cost of a small tower, rather than a large that can actually support the extra modules.


I think it's just another case of poor wording and that the towers are fuelled at maximum capacity and that it is a matter for you to decide how much of the CPU & PG generated you consume.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Sienna Toth
Pulsar Phisics Shipyards
#772 - 2014-06-18 12:26:34 UTC
Back to "INSTALL COSTS"

Now that I've run the math I think I see a fundamental problem with this approach. Unpredictable !!

I'll explain. Lets assume I'm going to build a tech 2 hull and that I'm building everything from minerals and Goo.

I factor for all the minerals for the T1 hull and the time to manufacture. Lets say that's 5 days. So I'll plan to start my T2 hull in 5 days. How do I factor the install cost of a job 5 days in the future into my margin calculation?

Related to this, what will be the periodic recalculation rate for install costs?
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#773 - 2014-06-18 14:10:13 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:

Structure Type || Percentage Bonus Per Structure || Current Max Bonus
Advanced Small Ship Assembly, Small Ship Assembly 1% 27%
Capital Ship Assembly 5% 15%
Drug Lab, Ammunition Assembly, Drone Assembly, Component Assembly, Equipment Assembly, Rapid Equipment Assembly 0.5% 25%
Laboratory 1.5% 22.5%
Large Ship Assembly, Advanced Large Ship Assembly, X-Large Ship Assembly 3% 21%
Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Ship Assembly, Subsystem Assembly 2% 26%

Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


Wait, Did you say that anchoring multiple of the same POS module will add no additional fuel load? What do you mean by that? just that POS fuel does not change, as it is now, or that having multiple arrays, you will only have to cover the CPU/PWG for one?
If you can anchor and online 10 arrays for the fuel cost of one, then yes it is not game breaking to have them affect the reduction regardless of if they are online. You can anchor unlimited amount of arrays at even a small POS, but onlining them is a different story, each needs power, and CPU only when online. Can we anchor multiple arrays without the CPU, power grid load? Or were you just referring to the fuel block consumption not changing regardless of how many POS modules are online?

For it to not be game breaking having arrays that are anchored, but not online, affect the bonuses, it would have to not cost anything to online those exrta modules. otherwise you could just anchor a small tower, and anchor 50 arrays around it, with only one online, and get max bonuses, without any extra POS load, and the fuel cost of a small tower, rather than a large that can actually support the extra modules.


I think it's just another case of poor wording and that the towers are fuelled at maximum capacity and that it is a matter for you to decide how much of the CPU & PG generated you consume.

Thats what I am afraid of. it seems that the arrays will stack and affect the bonus even if they are offline. if that is true, you can anchor enough labs or assembly arrays to get max bonus, while only having one online. That is the clarification I am looking for. he did say;

"We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures."

That sounds to me like they are affecting the bonus even when offline, as long as they are anchored at the POS. There actually is an additional fuel load for having them online. You do not have the CPU/power grid to online that many at a small POS, you would need a large, which means 4 times the fuel.There is no limit to what you can anchor at a POS, only what can be online based on the CPU/power grid capacity.

So if they affect the bonuses when anchored but offline, I can have a small POS with a sinlge lab and assembly array online, and have 20 of each anchored but offline, and get the bonuses for all of them, at the fuel cost of a small POS.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#774 - 2014-06-18 14:16:08 UTC
Sienna Toth wrote:
Back to "INSTALL COSTS"

Now that I've run the math I think I see a fundamental problem with this approach. Unpredictable !!

I'll explain. Lets assume I'm going to build a tech 2 hull and that I'm building everything from minerals and Goo.

I factor for all the minerals for the T1 hull and the time to manufacture. Lets say that's 5 days. So I'll plan to start my T2 hull in 5 days. How do I factor the install cost of a job 5 days in the future into my margin calculation?

Related to this, what will be the periodic recalculation rate for install costs?

based on the testing I have done on SiSi, there is a huge spread for install costs.

For example, a 1000 run of fuel blocks, at a station with a index of 0 install costs were under 2000 isk, the same job at a facility with the index bar at about 20% was over 4,000,000 isk. I would hate to see what it would be at a facility with a maxed index bar.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#775 - 2014-06-18 17:59:01 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Thats what I am afraid of. it seems that the arrays will stack and affect the bonus even if they are offline. if that is true, you can anchor enough labs or assembly arrays to get max bonus, while only having one online. That is the clarification I am looking for. he did say;

"We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures."

That sounds to me like they are affecting the bonus even when offline, as long as they are anchored at the POS. There actually is an additional fuel load for having them online. You do not have the CPU/power grid to online that many at a small POS, you would need a large, which means 4 times the fuel.There is no limit to what you can anchor at a POS, only what can be online based on the CPU/power grid capacity.

So if they affect the bonuses when anchored but offline, I can have a small POS with a sinlge lab and assembly array online, and have 20 of each anchored but offline, and get the bonuses for all of them, at the fuel cost of a small POS.


This is not in reference to what you are thinking Bugsy. Also the conclusions that you are drawing are not valid in that they do not correspond to the game or the rest of this thread.

1. Everything in the quote from Grayscale implies Online assembly arrays. (at the point of the job creation and start) for array bonuses. the "online/offline shenanigans" reference turning off arrays after job creation which is not the same as offline arrays giving bonuses as every array has to be online at one point simultaneously to give the bonus it gives.
Anchoring, as always, has no fuel burden cost, and does not take cpu/pg to do.

2 Arrays currently do not have "Fuel Cost" separate from the tower's base fuel cost.
" Can we anchor multiple arrays without the CPU, power grid load? " yes you can always anchor pos mods without cpu/pg costs. this has always been true.
Putting them online is a different matter.

3 everything so far seems to have been balanced around large towers as they are the ones that can online multiple arrays in such numbers as is listed for maximum bonuses.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#776 - 2014-06-18 20:29:00 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Yup :) Structures get a build cost bonus for each structure of the exact same type also online at the starbase, according to the following table:

Structure Type || Percentage Bonus Per Structure || Current Max Bonus
Advanced Small Ship Assembly, Small Ship Assembly 1% 27%
Capital Ship Assembly 5% 15%
Drug Lab, Ammunition Assembly, Drone Assembly, Component Assembly, Equipment Assembly, Rapid Equipment Assembly 0.5% 25%
Laboratory 1.5% 22.5%
Large Ship Assembly, Advanced Large Ship Assembly, X-Large Ship Assembly 3% 21%
Medium Ship Assembly, Advanced Medium Ship Assembly, Subsystem Assembly 2% 26%

Max numbers are just the max number of each that can be anchored at the optimal starbase tower. Numbers add together and then multiply in, so 10 small ship assembly arrays would give a 10% reduction to install costs for all jobs installed in a small ship assembly array at that tower. This is all per-tower, not per-system. We're still looking at online/offline shenanigans, but they're not considered game-breaking given that the major investment is in the structures themselves and there's no additional fuel load for additional structures.

Still trying to get hold of the the global usage numbers :)


Wait, Did you say that anchoring multiple of the same POS module will add no additional fuel load? What do you mean by that? just that POS fuel does not change, as it is now, or that having multiple arrays, you will only have to cover the CPU/PWG for one?
If you can anchor and online 10 arrays for the fuel cost of one, then yes it is not game breaking to have them affect the reduction regardless of if they are online. You can anchor unlimited amount of arrays at even a small POS, but onlining them is a different story, each needs power, and CPU only when online. Can we anchor multiple arrays without the CPU, power grid load? Or were you just referring to the fuel block consumption not changing regardless of how many POS modules are online?

For it to not be game breaking having arrays that are anchored, but not online, affect the bonuses, it would have to not cost anything to online those exrta modules. otherwise you could just anchor a small tower, and anchor 50 arrays around it, with only one online, and get max bonuses, without any extra POS load, and the fuel cost of a small tower, rather than a large that can actually support the extra modules.


This harkens to the days prior to fuel blocks where cpu and PG used various amounts of LO and HW that had to placed in a tower and changing modules resulting in different CPU or PG loads totally messed up your fuel loading and could run a tower out of fuel quickly.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#777 - 2014-06-19 13:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Kusum Fawn wrote:

This is not in reference to what you are thinking Bugsy. Also the conclusions that you are drawing are not valid in that they do not correspond to the game or the rest of this thread.

1. Everything in the quote from Grayscale implies Online assembly arrays. (at the point of the job creation and start) for array bonuses. the "online/offline shenanigans" reference turning off arrays after job creation which is not the same as offline arrays giving bonuses as every array has to be online at one point simultaneously to give the bonus it gives.
Anchoring, as always, has no fuel burden cost, and does not take cpu/pg to do.

2 Arrays currently do not have "Fuel Cost" separate from the tower's base fuel cost.
" Can we anchor multiple arrays without the CPU, power grid load? " yes you can always anchor pos mods without cpu/pg costs. this has always been true.
Putting them online is a different matter.

3 everything so far seems to have been balanced around large towers as they are the ones that can online multiple arrays in such numbers as is listed for maximum bonuses.

Except that I tested it on SiSi, the offline arrays are giving the bonuses, they only need to be anchored. I tested, with research labs. 10 labs anchored and offline, with 2 online (12 total) I was getting a -30% bonus, Same with the assembly arrays.

I will do more testing today, with more anchored offline structures, see how high the bonus goes. But a 30% material reduction for manufacturing at a POS is definitely game breaking if the arrays do not even have to be online to apply the bonuses.

235 MB of changes on SiSi, updating now, will test more this morning.

only reason I am posting this here is I feel it is something others should know about, and not many bother with the test server feed back forums. or testing for that matter.

Edit,
It seems fixed now. The bonus has gone from -30% to -1.5% However, it does not go up when I online the extra labs.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#778 - 2014-06-19 19:00:18 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Kusum Fawn wrote:

This is not in reference to what you are thinking Bugsy. Also the conclusions that you are drawing are not valid in that they do not correspond to the game or the rest of this thread.

1. Everything in the quote from Grayscale implies Online assembly arrays. (at the point of the job creation and start) for array bonuses. the "online/offline shenanigans" reference turning off arrays after job creation which is not the same as offline arrays giving bonuses as every array has to be online at one point simultaneously to give the bonus it gives.
Anchoring, as always, has no fuel burden cost, and does not take cpu/pg to do.

2 Arrays currently do not have "Fuel Cost" separate from the tower's base fuel cost.
" Can we anchor multiple arrays without the CPU, power grid load? " yes you can always anchor pos mods without cpu/pg costs. this has always been true.
Putting them online is a different matter.

3 everything so far seems to have been balanced around large towers as they are the ones that can online multiple arrays in such numbers as is listed for maximum bonuses.

Except that I tested it on SiSi, the offline arrays are giving the bonuses, they only need to be anchored. I tested, with research labs. 10 labs anchored and offline, with 2 online (12 total) I was getting a -30% bonus, Same with the assembly arrays.

I will do more testing today, with more anchored offline structures, see how high the bonus goes. But a 30% material reduction for manufacturing at a POS is definitely game breaking if the arrays do not even have to be online to apply the bonuses.

235 MB of changes on SiSi, updating now, will test more this morning.

only reason I am posting this here is I feel it is something others should know about, and not many bother with the test server feed back forums. or testing for that matter.

Edit,
It seems fixed now. The bonus has gone from -30% to -1.5% However, it does not go up when I online the extra labs.

What CCP Intends
What CCP does
What happens
if only were they ever the same thing.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#779 - 2014-06-22 12:04:21 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
If you need more info or other numbers, ask and I'll see if I can find answers.


Thanks very much for this. I *think* the main thing we are still missing is the detail of how the ME skill caps the multi-run bonus, so far we just know that it does, somehow.

If this has been mentioned anywhere, sorry, I missed it!


I know it has been less than a page but I asked this a week ago and no sign of any response. Is this still being decided?

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Red Bluesteel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#780 - 2014-07-03 01:41:02 UTC
Sorry, but the thread is to long to read it all....

But did i get it right, that Build / Research in an Empty System is Expensive and in an Heavy Loaded System its Cheap What?

Or it is the Reverse Way ... QuestionQuestionQuestion

Max Confused What?What?