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For the love of god fix RR agression CCP!
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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2011-12-05 17:23:02 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?


normal warfare.. sure

carebear vs. mercenaries... comon .. they dont have resources nor experience nor competent commander to maintain such strategy.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#22 - 2011-12-05 17:26:06 UTC
The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.
Demarcus
Killjoy.
#23 - 2011-12-05 17:27:00 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?


If it is a neutral doing the RR you have no way of identifying it as an enemy asset until it is too late.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2011-12-05 17:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.


game mechanics.. hmm

ok .. so lets start

group A fighting group B
both got aggresion timer and consequently they cant dock/jump whatever
group C come along start repping group A
the got aggression timer but no consequences / except you can shot at them which is quite pointless...

So i really wont call it game mechanics more like bug...

Anyway not that i care...
If its not an alt army.. but a real people behind those RR ships... It required effort, willingness and time..
Other group have to get some friends too or pay mercenaries
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#25 - 2011-12-05 17:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Lori Dyth wrote:
Thorn Galen wrote:
Shocked

I thought they had made the RR-aggression update with the release of Crucible.

I quote from the Crucible patch notes :

"*You will now be warned before assisting someone at war when in high security space."
"*If someone you’re assisting in high security space gets an unexpected aggression flag, your assistance module will deactivate and require manual reactivation to avoid unintentional flagging towards the assister."

Is that not what the RR aggressor does now, Lori Dyth ?



Yes they inherit the agression, but not the timer.

So i could neut RR a friend ( accept agression ) but still be able to dock/jump as i have no timer, but those who are now my enemy have, so cant follow me :)


as much as nuetral rr'ing is ******, there shouldnt be a timer for rr'ing anyone. you are not aggressing and shouldnt be aggressed


You are entering combat and should be treated as such.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#26 - 2011-12-05 17:31:32 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.


So stop being an RR carebear and suggest something useful.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#27 - 2011-12-05 17:34:46 UTC
Demarcus wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?


If it is a neutral doing the RR you have no way of identifying it as an enemy asset until it is too late.

The fact that it's a logistics ship that is fleet warping with your war targets might be a giveaway.

I mean really, even if you have to use an in corp character with a covops ship it isn't difficult to find and look at people you're at war with.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#28 - 2011-12-05 17:43:33 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.


game mechanics.. hmm

ok .. so lets start

group A fighting group B
both got aggresion timer and consequently they cant dock/jump whatever
group C come along start repping group A
the got aggression timer but no consequences / except you can shot at them which is quite pointless...

So i really wont call it game mechanics more like bug...

Anyway not that i care...
If its not an alt army.. but a real people behind those RR ships... It required effort, willingness and time..
Other group have to get some friends too or pay mercenaries


I'd just like to point out that shooting at RR ships isn't pointless even if you can't kill them, forcing them to dock or jump completely removes their ability to impact the outcome of a fight. Shooting them is only pointless if you think that them being present and RRing people you are shooting at has no effect on the fight.

Sometimes that is actually the case, it is possible to have so much DPS present that the other side having RR is irrelevant and you can kill the other guy anyway.
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Doomheim
#29 - 2011-12-05 17:43:55 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Demarcus wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Did you know that not everybody in your fleet should aggress if you are expecting enemy assets to jump?


If it is a neutral doing the RR you have no way of identifying it as an enemy asset until it is too late.

The fact that it's a logistics ship that is fleet warping with your war targets might be a giveaway.

I mean really, even if you have to use an in corp character with a covops ship it isn't difficult to find and look at people you're at war with.


What´s the matter, afraid you´ll have wasted all that time training up an RR alt?
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#30 - 2011-12-05 17:46:37 UTC
I actually don't have an RR alt.

Everyone I know laughs at me because of it.
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Doomheim
#31 - 2011-12-05 17:55:26 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
I actually don't have an RR alt.

Everyone I know laughs at me because of it.


My apolagies then. Rare these days to find a fellow capsuleer who prefers pvp the old fashioned way.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#32 - 2011-12-05 18:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.


game mechanics.. hmm

ok .. so lets start

group A fighting group B
both got aggresion timer and consequently they cant dock/jump whatever
group C come along start repping group A
the got aggression timer but no consequences / except you can shot at them which is quite pointless...

So i really wont call it game mechanics more like bug...

Anyway not that i care...
If its not an alt army.. but a real people behind those RR ships... It required effort, willingness and time..
Other group have to get some friends too or pay mercenaries


I'd just like to point out that shooting at RR ships isn't pointless even if you can't kill them, forcing them to dock or jump completely removes their ability to impact the outcome of a fight. Shooting them is only pointless if you think that them being present and RRing people you are shooting at has no effect on the fight.

Sometimes that is actually the case, it is possible to have so much DPS present that the other side having RR is irrelevant and you can kill the other guy anyway.


But you see shooting them IS pointless, and you cannot stop them from affecting the combat for more than a few seconds.

If you shoot them and they jump through a gate, or dock, they only need be gone long enough to get back though the gate or get undocked again. They immediately pick up right where they left off.

No risk, no way to do more than make them pause for a few seconds.

Somehow, I don't think that is the role that CCP really intended for these ships to play in Empire warfare.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2011-12-05 18:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Vimsy Vortis wrote:

I'd just like to point out that shooting at RR ships isn't pointless even if you can't kill them, forcing them to dock or jump completely removes their ability to impact the outcome of a fight. Shooting them is only pointless if you think that them being present and RRing people you are shooting at has no effect on the fight.

Sometimes that is actually the case, it is possible to have so much DPS present that the other side having RR is irrelevant and you can kill the other guy anyway.


Well you shot them, they dock. Undock with torp raven warp to you and add a bit dps since you become valid target.. Thats for the trying..

In the end its all in the game. Get friend form up become an threat and most importantly have fun..

There is not a thing better for an "carebear" then utterly destroy the aggressors and their friends Big smile
And crying out because your opponent is stronger, better organized well become stronger thats the answer which works most of the time.

In real world there are plenty of stronger people. Socialism is great, but human nature does not allow it. You want to be recognized for your hard work thats why you do it.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#34 - 2011-12-05 19:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
Ranger 1 wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.


game mechanics.. hmm

ok .. so lets start

group A fighting group B
both got aggresion timer and consequently they cant dock/jump whatever
group C come along start repping group A
the got aggression timer but no consequences / except you can shot at them which is quite pointless...

So i really wont call it game mechanics more like bug...

Anyway not that i care...
If its not an alt army.. but a real people behind those RR ships... It required effort, willingness and time..
Other group have to get some friends too or pay mercenaries


I'd just like to point out that shooting at RR ships isn't pointless even if you can't kill them, forcing them to dock or jump completely removes their ability to impact the outcome of a fight. Shooting them is only pointless if you think that them being present and RRing people you are shooting at has no effect on the fight.

Sometimes that is actually the case, it is possible to have so much DPS present that the other side having RR is irrelevant and you can kill the other guy anyway.


But you see shooting them IS pointless, and you cannot stop them from affecting the combat for more than a few seconds.

If you shoot them and they jump through a gate, or dock, they only need be gone long enough to get back though the gate or get undocked again. They immediately pick up right where they left off.

No risk, no way to do more than make them pause for a few seconds.

Somehow, I don't think that is the role that CCP really intended for these ships to play in Empire warfare.


I'm going to make a guess and say that you don't actually have any experience with logistics in empire at all. Because literally all you have to do to destroy a logistics ship that has jumped through a gate is have a T1 frigate sitting on the other side. And if you had the DPS to force a logistics ship to dock in the first instance you'll be able to force it to dock again before it can do anything.

The gentleman with the poor english skills seems to know quite alot more about empire logistics than you, it's much more likely that the logistics pilot will undock in a machariel or vindicator and start raping faces than to undock in a logistics ship and start repping again.

Also typically in any given war in empire only one side will be fielding logistics or one side will have vastly superior logistics to the other and they won't have to dock or jump their logistics to begin with so the whole issue of logistics and docking timers is not even an issue. The exception being when highsec merc corps are fighting eachother and both sides are just groups of armor battleships and guardians that can barely kill eachother.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#35 - 2011-12-05 19:37:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The best strategy the carebear has is to whine on the forums and hope that CCP changes game mechanics. Shame they don't know enough about game mechanics to actually suggest things that benefit them.


game mechanics.. hmm

ok .. so lets start

group A fighting group B
both got aggresion timer and consequently they cant dock/jump whatever
group C come along start repping group A
the got aggression timer but no consequences / except you can shot at them which is quite pointless...

So i really wont call it game mechanics more like bug...

Anyway not that i care...
If its not an alt army.. but a real people behind those RR ships... It required effort, willingness and time..
Other group have to get some friends too or pay mercenaries


I'd just like to point out that shooting at RR ships isn't pointless even if you can't kill them, forcing them to dock or jump completely removes their ability to impact the outcome of a fight. Shooting them is only pointless if you think that them being present and RRing people you are shooting at has no effect on the fight.

Sometimes that is actually the case, it is possible to have so much DPS present that the other side having RR is irrelevant and you can kill the other guy anyway.


But you see shooting them IS pointless, and you cannot stop them from affecting the combat for more than a few seconds.

If you shoot them and they jump through a gate, or dock, they only need be gone long enough to get back though the gate or get undocked again. They immediately pick up right where they left off.

No risk, no way to do more than make them pause for a few seconds.

Somehow, I don't think that is the role that CCP really intended for these ships to play in Empire warfare.


I'm going to make a guess and say that you don't actually have any experience with logistics in empire at all. Because literally all you have to do to destroy a logistics ship that has jumped through a gate is have a T1 frigate sitting on the other side. And if you had the DPS to force a logistics ship to dock in the first instance you'll be able to force it to dock again before it can do anything.

The gentleman with the poor english skills seems to know quite alot more about empire logistics than you, it's much more likely that the logistics pilot will undock in a machariel or vindicator and start raping faces than to undock in a logistics ship and start repping again.

Also typically in any given war in empire only one side will be fielding logistics or one side will have vastly superior logistics to the other and they won't have to dock or jump their logistics to begin with so the whole issue of logistics and docking timers is not even an issue. The exception being when highsec merc corps are fighting eachother and both sides are just groups of armor battleships and guardians that can barely kill eachother.


In any of the scenario's listed, whether occuring in Empire (which merely magnifies the issue) or in Null, currently assisting a ship in combat does not cause an aggression timer.

This is the basic mechanic that is in question, not the details of the docking games you prefer.

That being:

Is it a good idea to consider helping ships that have an aggression timer an aggressive act in and of itself, and therefore worthy of a timer.

I'm not taking either side in the argument. I'm merely pointing out the central issue.

Leaving things as they are allows for a bit sneakier game play, which is in itself not a bad thing.

Changing aggression rules to include assisting ships that have an aggression timer will make "boosting" ships play by the same rules as the rest of the ships engaged in a combat... which would not necessariy be a bad thing either.

As I said before, it's a tricky call.

Edit: In hindsight, I suppose I am taking a side actually. I feel that combat would be a more likely event in Empire if both sides had to commit all of their forces (both combat and "boosting") at least for the duration of an aggression timer. And it would cause some tactics in Null to be rethought as well. I'm not a big fan of ships contributing to a fight without taking the same risks as everyone else.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#36 - 2011-12-05 21:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
You don't want boosting to be considered an act of aggression, that might not cause problems in nullsec but the problems it would cause in highsec are immense. Just being in fleet with someone would allow you to make the Fleet, Wing and squad commands as well as the fleet booster turn red just by taking a cargo container or shooting at someone, I could go and canflip a mining op and when someone comes to shoot at me the fleet boosting orca would turn red. Or in an incursion fleet I could take a cargo container and the logistics would not only cease to rep me, but also cease to rep the entire command chain.

That kind of thing would be great for griefing, but I don't think that's what you were after.

As someone who lives in highsec, is constantly at war and having been on both sides of the war equation I think your last point is completely wrong and backwards. In highsec you have no space, territory or POS towers that you need to defend so you only fight people you are at war with when you want to fight them or they catch you with your pants down doing something stupid. Making people who are already extremely risk averse more vulnerable to loss won't make them fight more, it will make them less willing to dedicate assets to a fight. People who declare wars will just mitigate the risk by bringing even more logistics and the defenders who are usually poor in isk and inexperience will be even more reluctant to field their own approximate assets.

EDIT: Actually we need to do the booster thing I support it 100% there is a particular person I can use this to kill over and over
Russell Casey
Doomheim
#37 - 2011-12-05 22:29:53 UTC
Fight in a belt or at a planet. Nowhere to dock/jump.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#38 - 2011-12-05 22:34:44 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
You don't want boosting to be considered an act of aggression, that might not cause problems in nullsec but the problems it would cause in highsec are immense. Just being in fleet with someone would allow you to make the Fleet, Wing and squad commands as well as the fleet booster turn red just by taking a cargo container or shooting at someone, I could go and canflip a mining op and when someone comes to shoot at me the fleet boosting orca would turn red. Or in an incursion fleet I could take a cargo container and the logistics would not only cease to rep me, but also cease to rep the entire command chain.

That kind of thing would be great for griefing, but I don't think that's what you were after.

As someone who lives in highsec, is constantly at war and having been on both sides of the war equation I think your last point is completely wrong and backwards. In highsec you have no space, territory or POS towers that you need to defend so you only fight people you are at war with when you want to fight them or they catch you with your pants down doing something stupid. Making people who are already extremely risk averse more vulnerable to loss won't make them fight more, it will make them less willing to dedicate assets to a fight. People who declare wars will just mitigate the risk by bringing even more logistics and the defenders who are usually poor in isk and inexperience will be even more reluctant to field their own approximate assets.

EDIT: Actually we need to do the booster thing I support it 100% there is a particular person I can use this to kill over and over


The only change being discussed it whether an aggression timer should apply.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#39 - 2011-12-05 22:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Russell Casey wrote:
Fight in a belt or at a planet. Nowhere to dock/jump.


Smile Somehow I don't think the folks using neutral reppers will agree to that.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2011-12-05 22:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rellik B00n
Lori Dyth wrote:


Same goes for neutral SB'ing Blackbirds camping on undock ( im looking at you Orphanage ), if **** gets real, off they fly wit not a care in the world.



firstly I used to just let my SB blackbird blow up quite often, i mean who gives a crap its a blackbrid right? Smile

secondly I agree, RR should count as proper agro.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)