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Allow building Outposts in NPC sov and multiple Outposts in sov.

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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2014-06-16 12:49:18 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.



Pretty big '**** you' to anyone living there, isn't it?
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#22 - 2014-06-16 13:06:29 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.



Well - until that happens people are building that exactly one allowed indestructible outpost per system (instead of putting one up where there is already one) whenever they are needing additional facility and just link them with a jump bridge. So this proposal would potentially lower the rate at which new systems gain outposts by some small margin. Until you get the outposts destructible which does not sound something that is too easy or too soon implemented.

The simplest solution, if it is technically feasible to implement outpost destruction in near future would be some-kind of destructive charge with a timer which you can initiate in an outpost you own. Sort of like an Outpost self destruct. Just push a button and away it goes in some time - the time, obviously - should be longer than the time it takes to conquer the outpost so it would not become a standard move when station hits the final timer. everyone who has stuff in it would get a mail about it and so on.

If anything the station self destruct / destroying is more important if you are limited to one outpost per system than when you would be allowed to build multiple.


Ofc that would not address the issue of NPC sov outposts, presuming these would not be conquerable.

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Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-06-16 13:18:09 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.



Pretty big '**** you' to anyone living there, isn't it?



Ppl living in WH doesnt have indestructable base as well and do they cry? no ...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#24 - 2014-06-16 13:31:55 UTC
Zmikund wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.



Pretty big '**** you' to anyone living there, isn't it?



Ppl living in WH doesnt have indestructable base as well and do they cry? no ...
True, but I'm pretty sure they were aware of that when they went there. People who have items and ships in an outpost, were lead to believe they would be safe.

That's not to say I do not like the idea, I love it. But I do think there should be a start point for this and any existing outposts, should be changed to a permanent type and any after that that start date, designed to be destructible.
That way means there are outposts that are more valuable than others and the new type should be laid with the expectation of destruction at some point.

They could also allow a short time for people to move their stuff. But this then screws over those not playing at the time and is a poor idea. Or they could simply move all their items to a high sec station and make each and everyone destructible from day one. But then this could play havoc with the current owners and their logistics.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#25 - 2014-06-16 13:43:40 UTC
Mag's wrote:
True, but I'm pretty sure they were aware of that when they went there. People who have items and ships in an outpost, were lead to believe they would be safe.

That's not to say I do not like the idea, I love it. But I do think there should be a start point for this and any existing outposts, should be changed to a permanent type and any after that that start date, designed to be destructible.
That way means there are outposts that are more valuable than others and the new type should be laid with the expectation of destruction at some point.

They could also allow a short time for people to move their stuff. But this then screws over those not playing at the time and is a poor idea. Or they could simply move all their items to a high sec station and make each and everyone destructible from day one. But then this could play havoc with the current owners and their logistics.

People can start to adapt right now to the outpost they have their stuff in becoming destructible eventually. It was also a topic on fanfest where it was said everything put up in space by players will become destructible. I think there is ample time from now until whenever it will happen. Can't get any more clear than a devpost.

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Anthar Thebess
#26 - 2014-06-16 13:46:21 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.


Agree - as long as you fix current state of eve.
After this change only CFC and NC+PL will have outposts ... as they destroy other ones.

Additionally all assets from those stations , for all the people who will not say "NO" should be moved to the nearest NPC station - as this mechanic will change something that was not possible for years.

Can you before this add some new NPC nullspace - im not talking about big regions , but small pockets of space containing 1-2 stations using general rule.

Each SOV region is connected to some NPC space


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Mag's
Azn Empire
#27 - 2014-06-16 13:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Abrazzar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
True, but I'm pretty sure they were aware of that when they went there. People who have items and ships in an outpost, were lead to believe they would be safe.

That's not to say I do not like the idea, I love it. But I do think there should be a start point for this and any existing outposts, should be changed to a permanent type and any after that that start date, designed to be destructible.
That way means there are outposts that are more valuable than others and the new type should be laid with the expectation of destruction at some point.

They could also allow a short time for people to move their stuff. But this then screws over those not playing at the time and is a poor idea. Or they could simply move all their items to a high sec station and make each and everyone destructible from day one. But then this could play havoc with the current owners and their logistics.

People can start to adapt right now to the outpost they have their stuff in becoming destructible eventually. It was also a topic on fanfest where it was said everything put up in space by players will become destructible. I think there is ample time from now until whenever it will happen. Can't get any more clear than a devpost.
Yes I touched on that. But as I said, there are many players not playing right now with items in those outposts. They don't deserve to have their stuff outright removed.

CCP should look at ways to either move or make provision for those players. It's not a black and white situation.
Plus it simply does not make financial sense, to p*ss off potential returning customers.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2014-06-16 13:58:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Mag's wrote:
Zmikund wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.



Pretty big '**** you' to anyone living there, isn't it?



Ppl living in WH doesnt have indestructable base as well and do they cry? no ...
True, but I'm pretty sure they were aware of that when they went there. People who have items and ships in an outpost, were lead to believe they would be safe.

That's not to say I do not like the idea, I love it. But I do think there should be a start point for this and any existing outposts, should be changed to a permanent type and any after that that start date, designed to be destructible.
That way means there are outposts that are more valuable than others and the new type should be laid with the expectation of destruction at some point.

They could also allow a short time for people to move their stuff. But this then screws over those not playing at the time and is a poor idea. Or they could simply move all their items to a high sec station and make each and everyone destructible from day one. But then this could play havoc with the current owners and their logistics.


Well, what was CCP Hilmar screaming and demanding from the audience at Fanfest to scream 3 times? Roll (Though I remember the slight reluctance before the audience actually started chiming in. Big smile)

What do players demand from anybody all the time? Roll

And now, where a CCP employee actually said that it is going to happen to stations in an area of space where absolute destruction is the order of the day, it should not happen to them all of a sudden? Roll

If you leave all current outposts indestructible, this change to the mechanics would be a complete waste of time and would not change a thing. Instead, maybe only the standard station outposts* (Like VFK or NOL) should remain indestructible as sort of a Regional Capital system structure, but all regular outposts should be destructible without any remorse. This way, people have some save havens (and thus cannot complain that everything is in danger and everyone is going to move to NPC space and that NPC space is so much overpowered because of indestructible stations there) but the vast majority of their assets is at risk.

In this manner, the players would get what they always wanted to have: 99% of what they achieve is destroyable and yet they still have their safe places. Blink

*And of course limit the construction of these stations to max 2 per Region. Naturally. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#29 - 2014-06-16 14:02:52 UTC
better get all the crap i have lying around the eve universe now. Anyone want to buy 11 Abaddons in Fountain?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2014-06-16 14:10:51 UTC
Btw. When will we be able to build other standard stations than the ugly Gallente ones? If I held sov, I wanted to live in an Amarr Military Station, for instance, and have this as my region's capital system's station. This station radiates might and power... Blink

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2014-06-16 14:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Makari Aeron
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.


By making 0.0 have destructinle stations you essentially make it impossible for smaller alliances to play any part in nullsec life without being a power bloc's [female dog]. I am wholeheartedly against this idea. In addition, it means that a POS is more valuable than a station in null because it costs the owner less if it is lost. You essentially take away any and all incentive to improve your nullsec system because in eve sov warfare the attacker has such an outlandish advantage. Sov would need to be drastically changed to compensate for destructible stations. I wouldn't even know where to begin.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#32 - 2014-06-16 14:15:58 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.


Knowing how Risk Adverse Eve players can be. if you make outposts destructable then people are never going to hold thier stuff in them and just keep thier stuff in the closest NPC station.

I am going to put this out there but the only way i would ever support destructable anything when comming to outposts... is make them semi destructable.

Once an outpost is wreked then the invader has the option to send in a team to try and hack the defences of corp and personal hangars... like the protype game seen here.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#33 - 2014-06-16 14:24:55 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Mag's wrote:
True, but I'm pretty sure they were aware of that when they went there. People who have items and ships in an outpost, were lead to believe they would be safe.

That's not to say I do not like the idea, I love it. But I do think there should be a start point for this and any existing outposts, should be changed to a permanent type and any after that that start date, designed to be destructible.
That way means there are outposts that are more valuable than others and the new type should be laid with the expectation of destruction at some point.

They could also allow a short time for people to move their stuff. But this then screws over those not playing at the time and is a poor idea. Or they could simply move all their items to a high sec station and make each and everyone destructible from day one. But then this could play havoc with the current owners and their logistics.


Well, what was CCP Hilmar screaming and demanding from the audience at Fanfest to scream 3 times? Roll (Though I remember the slight reluctance before the audience actually started chiming in. Big smile)

What do players demand from anybody all the time? Roll

And now, where a CCP employee actually said that it is going to happen to stations in an area of space where absolute destruction is the order of the day, it should not happen to them all of a sudden? Roll

If you leave all current outposts indestructible, this change to the mechanics would be a complete waste of time and would not change a thing. Instead, maybe only the standard station outposts* (Like VFK or NOL) should remain indestructible as sort of a Regional Capital system structure, but all regular outposts should be destructible without any remorse. This way, people have some save havens (and thus cannot complain that everything is in danger and everyone is going to move to NPC space and that NPC space is so much overpowered because of indestructible stations there) but the vast majority of their assets is at risk.

In this manner, the players would get what they always wanted to have: 99% of what they achieve is destroyable and yet they still have their safe places. Blink

*And of course limit the construction of these stations to max 2 per Region. Naturally. Roll
I said, I love the idea.

But it's not a black and white situation. Many players left the game quite some time ago, with absolutely no idea CCP intended on this course. It would be a financial mistake, to not consider those players and how to save their items.

But I see you are looking at this, with the help of hindsight and monochrome glasses.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2014-06-16 14:25:55 UTC
Makari Aeron wrote:

By making 0.0 have destructinle stations you essentially make it impossible for smaller alliances to play any part in nullsec life without being a power bloc's [female dog]. I am wholeheartedly against this idea. In addition, it means that a POS is more valuable than a station in null because it costs the owner less if it is lost. You essentially take away any and all incentive to improve your nullsec system because in eve sov warfare the attacker has such an outlandish advantage. Sov would need to be drastically changed to compensate for destructible stations. I wouldn't even know where to begin.


That is the case due to the currently prevalent idiotic, simple-minded and daft attitude of the players, who like to shout "Destroy, destroy, destroy!" like apes. This mindset might change after all stations are destroyed and no one lives in 00 sec anymore and we all returned to High sec or Low sec (for the hardest of the hard).

Besides, if you are a small alliance, you have no business in Sov 00 anyways, because you don't provide the content that CCP needs so much to drag more people into the game. (semi-Roll, because it's the truth). Currently, you cannot do a lot in Sov 00 as a small entity either: if you try something, your POS will be shot down very soon, your station RF'd and taken over, your Sov structures destroyed and your ships for ratting, mining, using your home destroyed - unless you succumb and submit yourself to the bigger fish. The only thing that is added to this is the station, which you might lose - unless you succumb and submit yourself to the bigger fish. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Sales Alt negrodamus
Sanctuary of Shadows
#35 - 2014-06-16 14:26:04 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
You are right, null-sec is a bit static, but adding more outposts on its own won't solve the issue. If anything null-security space is already over-saturated with them right now.

What needs to be done first is to make Outposts destructible. Destroy one and all the stuff inside goes kaboom, and is dropped with regular loot mechanics. When that is in place and running, then we can think about ways to have more than one outpost per system.


well, you have our attention and interest.

when can we expect to start exploding stations? :)
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#36 - 2014-06-16 14:26:24 UTC
The issue of "being fair" to players who have items in 0.0 player outposts when they become destructible is an easy one to resolve.

Closer to the time, plastic wrap all assets in these soon-to-be-destructible outposts and transfer them to their owners redeeming system and give them the option to redeem them wherever they like.

They can move them to a non-destructible station or they can just redeem them in the same place or in a different 0.0 outpost, etc...

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#37 - 2014-06-16 14:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
The issue of "being fair" to players who have items in 0.0 player outposts when they become destructible is an easy one to resolve.

Closer to the time, plastic wrap all assets in these soon-to-be-destructible outposts and transfer them to their owners redeeming system and give them the option to redeem them wherever they like.

They can move them to a non-destructible station or they can just redeem them in the same place or in a different 0.0 outpost, etc...
Great idea. Simple and effective. That's if CCP is able to do this of course. Lol

Thank you.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#38 - 2014-06-16 14:36:21 UTC
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
The issue of "being fair" to players who have items in 0.0 player outposts when they become destructible is an easy one to resolve.

Closer to the time, plastic wrap all assets in these soon-to-be-destructible outposts and transfer them to their owners redeeming system and give them the option to redeem them wherever they like.

They can move them to a non-destructible station or they can just redeem them in the same place or in a different 0.0 outpost, etc...


I might be wrong, but to me it sounded for a second as if you suggested safe transfer of assets out of dangerous territory, because you cannot cope with the impending doom. Must be a mistake on my end.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-06-16 14:49:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Makari Aeron
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Makari Aeron wrote:

By making 0.0 have destructinle stations you essentially make it impossible for smaller alliances to play any part in nullsec life without being a power bloc's [female dog]. I am wholeheartedly against this idea. In addition, it means that a POS is more valuable than a station in null because it costs the owner less if it is lost. You essentially take away any and all incentive to improve your nullsec system because in eve sov warfare the attacker has such an outlandish advantage. Sov would need to be drastically changed to compensate for destructible stations. I wouldn't even know where to begin.


That is the case due to the currently prevalent idiotic, simple-minded and daft attitude of the players, who like to shout "Destroy, destroy, destroy!" like apes. This mindset might change after all stations are destroyed and no one lives in 00 sec anymore and we all returned to High sec or Low sec (for the hardest of the hard).

Besides, if you are a small alliance, you have no business in Sov 00 anyways, because you don't provide the content that CCP needs so much to drag more people into the game. (semi-Roll, because it's the truth). Currently, you cannot do a lot in Sov 00 as a small entity either: if you try something, your POS will be shot down very soon, your station RF'd and taken over, your Sov structures destroyed and your ships for ratting, mining, using your home destroyed - unless you succumb and submit yourself to the bigger fish. The only thing that is added to this is the station, which you might lose - unless you succumb and submit yourself to the bigger fish. Roll


My point exactly.

Pros to destruction of stations:
--More PvP opportunities
--More dynamic sov
--More risk
--more assets being risked

Cons of destruction to stations:
--Reduction of industry in 0.0 (mining, manufacturing, etc)
--Less insentive for smaller alliances to be independent of large power blocs
--Stations become even more worthless than POSes (with Crius, they already become somewhat irrelevant due to being on par with POS bonuses)
--Large powerblocs can simply roll through an area and wipe out stations without repercussions


It's good to note here that one of the main reasons that Provibloc hasn't been invaded is because of the numerous ouposts we have in our space. It is our only defense against large power blocs since CCP decided the sov mechanics would favor the attacker to such a high degree in Dominion. At this point in time without the knowledge of how CCP plans to change Sov, I view any and all devs who exclaim that we need destructible stations in nullsec to be individuals who have no knowledge of nullsec life and are disillusioned at best. Again, I have limited dataset. Maybe what they claim needs to happen, but until I understand how Sov mechanics will change I stand by my statement.

Now, could there be a way to make stations destructible and remove the cons I listed above? Yes, most definitely. However, the structure of Sov Warfare would have to change.

As for the folks crying "HTFU" and deal with having more assets risked, I return the "HTFU" back to you. If you're too lazy to reinforce and take down a station/outpost, then you have no place in nullsec.

EDIT: All this said, I am more than happy to debate this topic with the devs. In fact, I would very much like to do that.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
Rittel
Band of Valence
#40 - 2014-06-16 15:13:10 UTC
Pros to destruction of stations:
--More PvP opportunities - well not exactly, more structure grinding and blob warfare
--More dynamic sov - doubtful, sov was more dynamic years ago and the mechanics have barely changed
--More risk - in the grand scheme of things its a minor increase in risk, randomly spawning concord into one system a week would have more effect.
--more assets being risked - not really, most people will only move the essentials everything else will stay in empire

the whole of Null sec needs to be revamped - Id rather see the pirate factions take over all of current null sec and then a load of new regions open up beyond that to replace current Null. But either way the entire Sov mechanic needs to be completely changed to make holding huge chunks of space hugely painful on your wallet - well into the 100s of billions of isk a month for the monster alliances we have today.