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[Crius] Reprocessing feedback

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Darkblad
Doomheim
#81 - 2014-06-13 21:53:34 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
TBH, I'm still a bit on the fence that you can be "perfect" in NPC stations at all...

Why so? You get more than perfect in POS and even more than that perfect in player outposts.
This and who knows what future exploration will add to the game in terms of further improvements to the Crius maximum yield close to what's referred to as 100 % of an ore's content from then onwards.

Current 100 % will be achievable from day 1 of Crius.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Alain Colcer
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#82 - 2014-06-13 22:16:03 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Alain Colcer wrote:
I would like to raise what i consider an important point here, and has to do with current TQ "usability" of refining, vs singularity values.

On this character (my main), i have enough refining skills to have perfect refine for loot (scrapmetal) and all high-sec ores (from veld up to jaspet). This include extensive work on standings for several NPC corporations. Trained such skills on a PvP oriented character to support past corp activities.

I just connected to SISI and reviewed by how much i will be affected, it turns out i only get 65% for the ores in the same NPC stations......which is a drastic drop. I don't mind lossing the yield from NPC loot, because that required nerfing to boost mining as a profession....but i can no longer buy ore from the market and refine it myself.....without incurring in a heavy economic loss.

Would it be possible to consider refunding refining skills? i will train an alt to serve the same function, but it has no purpose to be trained to the new required levels on my main which is not an industrialist (albeit it has basic skills to work with tech1 refining and ammo production).

Its not a whine about the whole change, since i really like the new balance towards miners and ore extraction acquiring importance.....but my abilities are moving from "useful" towards the "not bother" category...and albeit there has been past rebalances with skills....this is the first one that actually hurts not specialized choices....


Perfect refine in hisec was trivial to obtain. Soon, in order to get the same amount of minerals as "perfect" one has to actually train perfect skills, get perfect standings, and use the best implant.

In other words, perfect refine now actually requires perfection instead of mediocrity.



hence my point to ask for considering refunding skills ....since mediocrity is no longer a possibility ....you need perfect skills to obtain the same results as before....
SalvorHardin
Komintern.
#83 - 2014-06-14 01:24:38 UTC
When you reprocessing from corp hangar, is there a way to choose where the output result will be transfered?
Right now Iam only able to transfer it to my personnal hangar.
Sales Alt negrodamus
Sanctuary of Shadows
#84 - 2014-06-14 01:46:05 UTC
Alain Colcer wrote:


hence my point to ask for considering refunding skills ....since mediocrity is no longer a possibility ....you need perfect skills to obtain the same results as before....


do you have a reading disability?
Darkblad
Doomheim
#85 - 2014-06-14 07:17:20 UTC
Sales Alt negrodamus wrote:
[quote=Alain Colcer]do you have a reading disability?
His complaint is that he no longer can achieve what's 100 % reprocessing yield now with mediocre skills.
As he'd rather choose to train skills for maximum Ore reprrocessing on an alt, he wants to have the option to get the SP refunded on his more combat oriented main character, as he will not train the missing skill levels on that one. No reading comprehension here.
Currently Ref 5, RefEff 4 and Processing 1 are enough to achieve 100 % on a 50 % base station. Training Processing for all Highsec Ores, Jaspet results in a total of 394.265 SP.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2014-06-15 10:08:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
see below

hit quote not edit, genius i know

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-06-15 10:09:17 UTC
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Personally i would like to see every station with a Base 33% Efficiency with character standings with the relevant NPC corp raising the efficiency level at 2% per level of standing.

((33% Base Station Equipment) + (Standings x 0.02 )) x (1 + Refining skill x 0.03) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.02) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.02) )

This would stop finding the right station picked based on crude base efficiency and make other less used stations and systems be used, no more everyone in one 50% station and zero in another 33% of the same corp in the same system.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....
Velicitia
XS Tech
#88 - 2014-06-15 11:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
TBH, I'm still a bit on the fence that you can be "perfect" in NPC stations at all...


Why so? You get more than perfect in POS and even more than that perfect in player outposts.


Because there are currently bots and super-multiboxers who are competing with me from the near complete safety of NPC corps. They shouldn't be able to do this.

Edit --> yeah, I can gank them, or inform CODE about them ... but "wardec his refining corp, and nuke the POS" should also be a valid option.

Furthermore, without any implants or re-mapped attributes ... it takes a grand total of 60 days to get L5 ore processing skills (bit longer if they need Cybernetics 5). While there will be many people who are taken by surprise, the "big players" (if you will) will have already fixed their skills, or are nearly done doing so.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Darkblad
Doomheim
#89 - 2014-06-15 11:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
Velicitia wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
TBH, I'm still a bit on the fence that you can be "perfect" in NPC stations at all...


Why so? You get more than perfect in POS and even more than that perfect in player outposts.


Because there are currently bots and super-multiboxers who are competing with me from the near complete safety of NPC corps. They shouldn't be able to do this.

Edit --> yeah, I can gank them, or inform CODE about them ... but "wardec his refining corp, and nuke the POS" should also be a valid option.

Furthermore, without any implants or re-mapped attributes ... it takes a grand total of 60 days to get L5 ore processing skills (bit longer if they need Cybernetics 5). While there will be many people who are taken by surprise, the "big players" (if you will) will have already fixed their skills, or are nearly done doing so.
Taking the risk of wardecs by creating a player corporation provides the advantage to anchor a POS in Highsec. There you can achieve around 104% of what those NPC corporation players can achieve.
And I still can't see a disadvantage in raising the bar to gain maximum results when it comes to the character's part of reprocessing. Striving for perfection by training skills plays a major role in other parts of the game already.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Darkblad
Doomheim
#90 - 2014-06-15 13:11:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
Darkblad wrote:
Edit, while I'm at it: Two compressed variants contain raw ore quantities that are no multiple of 100 pre Crius - Crokite (1250 units) and Pyroxeres (49.950 units). I didn't get to spare some on Sisi before deployment and can't test. However, adjusting the quantities of compressed variants results in values a basic ore batch contains. This would mean the loss of half a batch for each block when Crius goes live - if there's no other adjustment, which I can't check myself.
Still wondering about this. I've created a sheet to show the impact of the "half future batch" within currently existing blocks.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#91 - 2014-06-15 13:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Velicitia wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
TBH, I'm still a bit on the fence that you can be "perfect" in NPC stations at all...


Why so? You get more than perfect in POS and even more than that perfect in player outposts.


Because there are currently bots and super-multiboxers who are competing with me from the near complete safety of NPC corps. They shouldn't be able to do this.

Edit --> yeah, I can gank them, or inform CODE about them ... but "wardec his refining corp, and nuke the POS" should also be a valid option.


Why should they not be allowed to use game mechanics? Where's the problem? They cannot use POS, or use POS on an unrelated alt. You can do all that too.

Velicitia wrote:
Furthermore, without any implants or re-mapped attributes ... it takes a grand total of 60 days to get L5 ore processing skills (bit longer if they need Cybernetics 5). While there will be many people who are taken by surprise, the "big players" (if you will) will have already fixed their skills, or are nearly done doing so.


That problem will always arise with change. Be happy that you learned of the change with ample warning and had the chance to do necessary changes to your brain mapping before the changes hit. Why care about someone who's your competition?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lanek Thall
Doomheim
#92 - 2014-06-15 17:30:55 UTC
Ok, I have read a lot of stuff about this, tried it on sisi and just need a simple answer....

In null sec, will I get more minerals refining at an outpost than I would at a POS regardless of any skills I may have?

cheers
Darkblad
Doomheim
#93 - 2014-06-15 17:37:02 UTC
Lanek Thall wrote:
Ok, I have read a lot of stuff about this, tried it on sisi and just need a simple answer....

In null sec, will I get more minerals refining at an outpost than I would at a POS regardless of any skills I may have?

cheers
Depends on the Outpost/Upgrade Level. Use this overview. Intensive Array is the one you can only use in Lowsec/Nullsec. Skills have influence on the yield for Arrays, Outposts and Stations.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Jimtom
Fancypants Inc
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2014-06-15 19:30:15 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Jinn Aideron wrote:
  • There is no multi-selection in reprocessing window. -- You are presented with very nice visual clues, warning signs, etc. When you then want to ACT on these, you have so select,right-click,remove every single element on its own!
  • Allow us to DRAG things out of the window for 'remove', just as we now drag them in to 'add'.

When I picture this window in its finished state: awesome! Big smile Can't wait.


unfortunately dragging items out of the window and dropping them somewhere in the void doesn't work very well in EVE so we couldn't make that happen this time

multiselect is something we might look into



Shame you couldnt make dragging it out of the window happen Sad it seemed to be a intuitive way of removing things :P
Velicitia
XS Tech
#95 - 2014-06-15 23:23:11 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
Taking the risk of wardecs by creating a player corporation provides the advantage to anchor a POS in Highsec. There you can achieve around 104% of what those NPC corporation players can achieve.
And I still can't see a disadvantage in raising the bar to gain maximum results when it comes to the character's part of reprocessing. Striving for perfection by training skills plays a major role in other parts of the game already.


I'm saying that a 4% boost isn't really that much of a carrot, and you should (probably) NOT be able to get "perfect" refining at all whatsoever while using NPC Refineries.

Why should someone who chooses to play "alone" in a NPC corp be able to refine anywhere near as well as someone taking the risk of a POS?

Let's be honest here ... with only 4% difference, we're talking about 42k trit from a Mackinaw's ore hold (37,500 M3 --- 1.05 vs 1.09m units). At current local (buy order) prices, that's 213k ISK ... or about 11 fuel blocks...

Rivr Luzade wrote:
Why should they not be allowed to use game mechanics? Where's the problem? They cannot use POS, or use POS on an unrelated alt. You can do all that too.


Why should they be allowed to achieve the equivalent of "100% refine" in an NPC station?

Rivr Luzade wrote:

That problem will always arise with change. Be happy that you learned of the change with ample warning and had the chance to do necessary changes to your brain mapping before the changes hit. Why care about someone who's your competition?


I've had 5/5/5 skills since 2008. This change affects my training plan in no way whatsoever, for the people whose plans have to change ... meh.

I'm arguing that "oh, another 60 days to perfect" is really nothing, as it will only change the playing field for a few months (or less!) until people wise up and train the skills.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Laendra
Universalis Imperium
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2014-06-16 05:36:11 UTC
Laendra wrote:
Having problems figuring out how to reprocess in an outpost. IIRC, ALL outposts are supposed to allow that now???

Devblog wrote:

Little outpost on the prairie

Player-built outposts are currently very biased regarding reprocessing. Minmatar outposts have a default 35% output and all others have none. Currently there is not much of a choice on that regard.

In the same vein, there is not so much of an incentive to upgrade an outpost for better reprocessing yields, since perfect reprocessing rates are so easily achieved.

After the summer expansion, all outposts will now have a default 50% reprocessing rate (on all items, including ore, ices, ships, ammunition etc…). However:

Amarr, Caldari and Gallente outposts can be upgraded to further increase ore and ice reprocessing by 2%, 4% and 7% (for a total of 52%, 54% and 57%)
Minmatar outposts can be upgraded to add further 3%, 7% and 10% on ore and ice reprocessing rates (for a total of 53%, 57% and 60%)

In practice, that means that someone with perfect skills, implant and standings refining at a fully upgraded Minmatar outpost will receive 14.4% more reprocessed minerals than currently.

However, it is true not everyone has the resources or organization to own outposts, which brings us to the next point.


Verified that only the Minmatar outposts have refining capability from scratch, contrary to the quoted devblog.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#97 - 2014-06-16 08:30:16 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

I've had 5/5/5 skills since 2008. This change affects my training plan in no way whatsoever, for the people whose plans have to change ... meh.

I'm arguing that "oh, another 60 days to perfect" is really nothing, as it will only change the playing field for a few months (or less!) until people wise up and train the skills.



Well, that can't be helped, skill-Training is not an endless process. Though, 60 days is only for the High sec ores (if at all); if you want all Ore Processing skills at V, it's going to take a lot longer. But even then, it's only a couple of months and you are done, which is intended. There are only so many ores for which you can train processing skills. If you compare that to Gunnery or Ships, it's only natural that it takes not as much time as these 2 categories have a lot more things to consider and train for.

Velicitia wrote:
I'm saying that a 4% boost isn't really that much of a carrot, and you should (probably) NOT be able to get "perfect" refining at all whatsoever while using NPC Refineries.


This argument is flawed, because it depends on what you take as perfect. You obviously take the NPC-Station result as perfect, which, for my understanding, is not the case. Perfect is the Sov-00-Minmatar outpost and compared to that, NPC stations are utterly inferior. They certainly give almost the same reprocessing yield as they do now, but in the new scheme of things, they are very far from perfect.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#98 - 2014-06-16 09:30:52 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

I've had 5/5/5 skills since 2008. This change affects my training plan in no way whatsoever, for the people whose plans have to change ... meh.

I'm arguing that "oh, another 60 days to perfect" is really nothing, as it will only change the playing field for a few months (or less!) until people wise up and train the skills.



Well, that can't be helped, skill-Training is not an endless process. Though, 60 days is only for the High sec ores (if at all); if you want all Ore Processing skills at V, it's going to take a lot longer. But even then, it's only a couple of months and you are done, which is intended. There are only so many ores for which you can train processing skills. If you compare that to Gunnery or Ships, it's only natural that it takes not as much time as these 2 categories have a lot more things to consider and train for.


Velicitia wrote:
I'm saying that a 4% boost isn't really that much of a carrot, and you should (probably) NOT be able to get "perfect" refining at all whatsoever while using NPC Refineries.


This argument is flawed, because it depends on what you take as perfect. You obviously take the NPC-Station result as perfect, which, for my understanding, is not the case. Perfect is the Sov-00-Minmatar outpost and compared to that, NPC stations are utterly inferior. They certainly give almost the same reprocessing yield as they do now, but in the new scheme of things, they are very far from perfect.


You should really train reading comprehension to Level 1.


I KNOW it doesn't take that long to train the 5/5/5 skills up. I KNOW that I'm limiting myself to hisec. Where do you think that there are people hiding in NPC corps for "safety" so they can mine with limited outside interference?

As we are talking specifically about hisec carebears who currently hide in NPC corps, and not sov null outposts -- why is my argument of "4% boost, which barely covers the cost of a small tower (given current mineral prices) is not enough of a carrot for people to start risking POS" flawed?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#99 - 2014-06-16 09:54:52 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

I KNOW it doesn't take that long to train the 5/5/5 skills up. I KNOW that I'm limiting myself to hisec. Where do you think that there are people hiding in NPC corps for "safety" so they can mine with limited outside interference?

As we are talking specifically about hisec carebears who currently hide in NPC corps, and not sov null outposts -- why is my argument of "4% boost, which barely covers the cost of a small tower (given current mineral prices) is not enough of a carrot for people to start risking POS" flawed?


I don't have problems with limited outside interference. A PC can simply be dissolved and reformed, if a wardec hits and no interference happens either. Besides, miners "hiding" in NPC are not the biggest problem in my opinion. Gank pilots hiding in NPC corps are.

It is flawed in the way that you think these players only should do reprocessing in these POSes. That's not how CCP seems to have intended their use; instead you should move all your industry activities there. Blink

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#100 - 2014-06-16 15:34:47 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

I KNOW it doesn't take that long to train the 5/5/5 skills up. I KNOW that I'm limiting myself to hisec. Where do you think that there are people hiding in NPC corps for "safety" so they can mine with limited outside interference?

As we are talking specifically about hisec carebears who currently hide in NPC corps, and not sov null outposts -- why is my argument of "4% boost, which barely covers the cost of a small tower (given current mineral prices) is not enough of a carrot for people to start risking POS" flawed?


I don't have problems with limited outside interference. A PC can simply be dissolved and reformed, if a wardec hits and no interference happens either. Besides, miners "hiding" in NPC are not the biggest problem in my opinion. Gank pilots hiding in NPC corps are.


But that's against the spirit of EVE (both cases, actually).

Quote:
It is flawed in the way that you think these players only should do reprocessing in these POSes. That's not how CCP seems to have intended their use; instead you should move all your industry activities there. Blink


Well, this is the "Reprocessing" sticky ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia