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L4 mission ships, Navy Raven vs Golem

Author
Adamus Kane
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-06-12 15:41:45 UTC
Hello all,
I am looking to get into L4 missions soon.
I am a longtime caldari pilot so i have nearly all the skills i need to fit L4 capable ships.
So here we get to my question. I am looking at a pair of fits that i would run for L4 missions. It would either be a Caldari navy raven or a golem
I have a Navy raven sitting in a hangar from a while ago (totally unfit). I am willing to drop the needed cash to get either of these fits obviously. I ran the numbers and the raven fit is costing 1.7B while the Golem fit is a touch cheaper at around 1.6B

I would love some advice on which of these fits would be better to run, or at least what the benefits of each fit.

Also, I have never run a L4 mission. The highest I have run thus far is L3s. The L3s were fairly easy for me as I have a well fit Drake. However I have heard that L4s are a whole different animal. Any general words of wisdom or advice for running L4s?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

-Kane
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2014-06-12 15:52:55 UTC
Marauders tend to own level IVs these days.

I doubt you need to spend 1.6 Bill on a Golem to make it capable of smashing most if not all IVs.
Unter Daem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-06-12 16:07:20 UTC
My advice:
In general, the opinion seems to be that if you're just blitzing missions, the RNI is the better choice, because of more dps. If you're salvaging and looting, the golem is the better choice.

my take is that if you're running missions in caldari space (which is pretty much what i'd expect), you'll be facing the guristas a good chunk of the time. They jam pretty heavily in most l4's. Bastion moded Marauders are immune to projected effects, including ewar (excluding neuts and nos). for this (and some extra effects, like a beefier tank and more range), you trade mobility (you don't really move too much in a bs as it is...just take a gate in, and mjd away from the gate once, so you can see a catalyst swarm coming), and a little bit of dps (assuming you use cruise RNI vs cruise Golem. if you go cruise RNI vs torp golem (because of the extra range in bastion) it's pretty even).

my verdict is golem. oh, and the golem model is way cooler than the basic raven model. and the bastion transformation is sweet.
Adamus Kane
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2014-06-12 16:18:30 UTC
Thanks for the advice Unter. I do plan on salvaging, however I have a dedicated alt for salvaging. Would you recommend torps on the golem then? At the moment i am looking at cruise missiles on it.

Also the golem is so expensive because the hull is 1B alone. It is actually a vastly cheaper fit than the CNR, as the raven fit does not even account for the hull (I did not factor the hull in as I already own a CNR hull)

Thanks again lads, keep the thoughts rolling

-Kane
Unter Daem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-06-12 16:49:33 UTC
personally, yes. i use my golem with torps. all the range issues i've been confronted with have been solvable with two mjd jumps. THE ONLY PROBLEM with this is that even with rigor rigs, it's still crap at hitting frigs. because of this, i use my second account as a frig-shredder in a t3 (your ship of choice may vary), and don't use the golem to carry combat drones, and instead pop a MTU and let salvage drones take care of a good chunk of the salvage while i shoot stuff. just keep an eye on the drones: because of the aggro-switch mechanics, sometimes a rat will decide that they're more of a threat than your ship.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-06-12 20:07:51 UTC
Please go with that Raven fit. Then let me know where you will be running your missions so I can send some buddies of mine to assist you in managing all that shiny gear.
Ion Kirst
KIRSTONE ALLIANCE
#7 - 2014-06-12 20:26:50 UTC
The CNR and Golem, if fitted the same, have both the same dps and volley. (984dps and 8080volley for me)

I don't use torps or a MJD. With the cruise, I'd just head into a mission and sit still, if I could. For me, there is no reason to jump around. And now since we have "bastion" sitting still works very well for me. ( of course there are the missions with gates that you have to get to, but eh.)

I used the CNR for a long time, then I finally broke down and got the Golem. I now use the Golem only, whether I salvage or not. Didn't need the bastion module before, and still don't need it now, but I love kicking it in.

I can see where the MJD helps the guys with torps, and the bastion will really help the pilots with lower sp.

-Kirst

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#8 - 2014-06-12 21:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Golem, because ECM immunity. That's what makes marauders great. I don't even use em to maraud anymore. Noctis is what I prefer for salvaging.

[Golem, Cruise Golem]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist B-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Large Micro Jump Drive
Dread Guristas Stasis Webifier
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Cruise Missile
Bastion Module I
Small Tractor Beam II
E500 Prototype Energy Vampire
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Bay Loading Accelerator I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hornet II x5
Warrior II x5

Http://eve-survival.org

Edit:

You need the CA-1 implant to run the vamp. Its not necessary, I just don't maraud much.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#9 - 2014-06-12 21:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ireland VonVicious
The question is do you own a Noctis?

If you do run the CNR.

If you don't Golem can be the better choice.

Rattlesnake gets big fat DPS now missions feel instant.
It might be of interest to you. I'm pulling 1733 DPS with implants.
You will want a Noctis if you go this route as well.

For someone who has never run L4's the SNI can be a good first ship as well.
Mainly due to the cost and tank that are more forgiving if you mess up.
Adamus Kane
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-06-12 22:59:37 UTC
I do have a noctis, however i am liking the look of the golem. The bastion looks amazing.
Thanks all for the advice.

Time to go grind reputation and money

-Kane
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-06-13 13:46:10 UTC
Adamus Kane wrote:
I do have a noctis, however i am liking the look of the golem. The bastion looks amazing.
Thanks all for the advice.

Time to go grind reputation and money

-Kane


if u have a raven navy already u can use it to great effect with only t2 mods till u get your Golem.

4 bcu
1 signal amp
2 mission spec amps
1 meta 3 shield boost
1 heavy cap injector
2 meta 4 tp
1 mjd
8 t2 cruise launchers with fury and precision
2 rigors
1 flare

its ultra tight on cpu but doable
Gulch P13
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-06-13 16:01:42 UTC
Don't rule out the Rattlesnake!
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-06-13 16:07:54 UTC
Gulch P13 wrote:
Don't rule out the Rattlesnake!

I'm with you. Bastion golem risks losing your 1B hull if a tree comes down on a cable or something in your area when you have bastion up. Rattlesnake is just as good if not better and also no risk.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#14 - 2014-06-13 22:13:55 UTC
Adamus Kane wrote:
Also, I have never run a L4 mission. The highest I have run thus far is L3s. The L3s were fairly easy for me as I have a well fit Drake. However I have heard that L4s are a whole different animal. Any general words of wisdom or advice for running L4s?

Drake can do it, if you have enough skill, and selective missions especially other than "-extravaganza" for one. I run some in an AF, it's doable. But probably not a good idea unless you already have a BS or cruiser that can already complete any lvl4 mission, so you don't get stuck with a mission you can't complete with a frig or battle cruiser.

Why the bling battleclinic fittings? Don't you know that most there that post those up probably don't even fly them? hehe. Well not for long anyway, it's just ganker bait. It's not going to help you with your lack of skills. With skills, you will have 0 problems running a basic T2 fit CNR though any lvl4 missions. In fact you should just jump into a t1 raven normally fit and just get used to lvl4's even if doing them more slowly. But for CNR, this makes more sense, at least the V2 one there, something more based on that anyway. I tend to run more tankier than that, but that is still a more reasonable fit.

Golem is good, but imo not just for lvl4 missions. Better for incursions. Then I can see a little bling actually being more useful there, though not so much on lvl4's. Then for lvl4's as others have said, rattlesnake, even a navy scorp will do fine in lvl4's. Cant sell me on torps though, cruisies are ideal, torps better for bombers.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12

stoicfaux
#15 - 2014-06-14 01:39:14 UTC
I prefer a 4 TP Golem over a 3 TP CNR. The Golem is a tad more expensive to fit, but has easier fitting requirements, is easier to tank, can loot/salvage and doesn't require expensive rigs/modules.

fittings here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4450779

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#16 - 2014-06-14 14:17:56 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
The question is do you own a Noctis?

If you do run the CNR.

If you don't Golem can be the better choice.

Rattlesnake gets big fat DPS now missions feel instant.
It might be of interest to you. I'm pulling 1733 DPS with implants.
You will want a Noctis if you go this route as well.

For someone who has never run L4's the SNI can be a good first ship as well.
Mainly due to the cost and tank that are more forgiving if you mess up.


a noctics is cheap, in cost and sp requirements. where it isn't cheap is in the time required to go back and actually do the looting and salvaging. Salvage prices are in the toilet, and I imagine most meta loot will be falling in price too with the reprocessing changes coming soon™. That said the meta rebalancing just might help out (although I have my doubts on that for most items, if and when it ever happens). where it just might be worth using is if you can run 5+ good missions and set up bookmarks. Hell at this point the only things I even bother to loot are what my mobile tractor unit brings in, and maybe I'll use a tractor beam on a few other things if I'm feeling like it.

as for CNR vs Golem I don't really have a preference. I have both and perfect skills and implants for both. I find missile boats absolutely boring and usually just switch to auto-targeting missiles and semi afk everything in them. My golem is rigged for torps so it has 2 missile velocity rigs and this makes cruise missiles very fast and pretty much eliminates volley counting. With the target painter bonus I don't really even worry about fitting rigors or not. My CNR has 2x rigor 1x flare, and has pretty damn good damage application.

I'd probably suggest a Bhargest instead. mostly just for the missile velocity bonus. It only helps that it is also faster and more agile. although it just might be shiny and new enough it makes you a gank target.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Taegessia
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-06-15 10:05:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Taegessia
With a ship that has 7 meds you really don't need so much expensive modules for tanking. Since you never run L4s before my recommendation is go relatively cheap & always use a bit more tank than the one you think is enough, till you get a feeling for each L4 mission. After that you can make proper adjustments and optimize your tank to possibly gain in other areas (dps,drones,utility). Keep the Pith A's though, make tasks easier and are not expensive.

Also if you are using that afterburner to gain speed (due to mission requirments) & not for tanking (I don't see why would you in an RNI or any other BS for that matter) then on at least half the missions you really don't need a propulsion mod. To the ones you do need one you will gain more & finish faster with a Microwarpdrive by pulsing it at the right time. Now here is a module worth going expensive. Go for a Domination\Republic Fleet 100mn MWD, best value for money IMO. Use a Tech II Invulnerability Field and a Pithum B or C type Medium Shield Booster instead. As for Ballistic Controls, if you are using 3 go all Faction, if 4 then use 2 Faction & 2 Tech IIs.

I don't know your play style and how you like to micromanage\apply your dps but here are some things I honestly believe after years of blitzing\running L4s make PvE more efficient. By efficient I don't mean isk\per hour only but also isk\effort.

- Use Cruise and not Torpedos. Range is King.
- Use light drones for all frigate size ships. Your main weapon (missiles) should never have to be forced to fire on a frigate.

This way you limit the use of Target painters. That's a good thing. Having to make 2-4 clicks for each valid target adds too much hassle to your experience. I am really not a fan of the one-shot Fury mission ship. I prefer to change to precisions and use only 1 target painter (if needed) to take out cruisers.

Some will argue the extra loading time but it really depends on the situation. If your tank is adequate you can make that extra reload time meaningless. Focus your Furys to the Battleships & after you take them all out switch to precisions and take out the cruisers. Besides that at least 40% of the pitate cruisers are getting one-shotted with precision + 1 target painter, the ones that do not, while it would take more shots (1-2 more shots max) than with a multiple Target Painted Fury setup you gain in other areas like more free med slots (since you are not wasting them for multiple target painters) to use for other modules like a sensor booster with locking time script, more tank if you need one, drone navigations for your heavy drones or omnis for your sentries.

At the same time your light drones are taking care of the frigates. If you happen to finish frigates faster than the other hulls you can then launch your heavies and assist in taking out the cruisers & battleships (heavies really make a difference here) seriously with the new changes I don't use medium drones to any mission. At the end you will get the feeling that more or less you finish the same mission with both ways at the same time but with less effort in the case of the precision + 1 target painter setup. Unless you consider drone management a hassle (personally i find their use quite effortless while offering so much)

As for ships my humble opinion is that the indeed amazing Marauders are for ppl that only have one account & still want to salvage. I can justify the cost in this case. If you have 2 accounts you will have a noticeable peace of mind running missions with a Noctis & cheaper Faction BS like the RNI & even better my favourite Fleet Typhoon (love on first sight). The Performance\Price ratio of this ship is unbeatable.

But if you decide to run missions on an expensive ship\setup, do youself a favor and go to a 0.8 and above security system. That doesn't mean you will be immune to ganking, but the likeliness of one happening is greatly reduced.

"Please add an option to automatically repackage & stack our currently unpackaged items in our item hangar".

Boomhaur
#18 - 2014-06-16 00:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Boomhaur
If you never ran a lv4 before just T2 fit a Raven and run it, with insurance. Expect to make some noobish mistakes and eventually lose your ship to stupidity, and if you learn from that than you can go with your CNR or Golem once you get some experience.

And by stupid mistakes I mean something a long the lines of "Opps I just triggered full room aggro, huh why can't I warp. What do you mean I am being warp scrambled! What the !%)!, when did that happen!!"

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.

Topher Basquette Dusch-shur
Montana Freedom Fighters
#19 - 2014-06-16 23:28:34 UTC
I went from the Navy Raven to the Rattlesnake about a year and a half ago and never looked back. I went from the Rattlesnake to the Golem right before Bastion came out. I fly them both now, depending on if I want to loot and salvage the mission or not. So Gurista's Extravaganza/Recon 1 I just bomb thought in the Rattle for bounties and LP, but Gone Berserk/Damsel I do in the Golem because the loot and salvage is both good, and not inconvenient.

Feel free to message me in game and I will share a couple different fits with you.

I know you asked about the Navy Raven, but post Kronos you are mush better off putting your Isk elsewhere if you don't mind the training.
Anabaric
The Grumpy Bastards
#20 - 2014-06-17 18:37:27 UTC
Webvan wrote:

With skills, you will have 0 problems running a basic T2 fit CNR though any lvl4 missions. In fact you should just jump into a t1 raven normally fit and just get used to lvl4's even if doing them more slowly.

This is solid advice, raw skills are very important to running level 4 missions. If you can't use T2 tanking modules you really shouldn't be running level 4's, adding expensive modules will likely end in a painful explosion either to the NPC's or gankers.

Webvan wrote:

Why the bling battleclinic fittings? Don't you know that most there that post those up probably don't even fly them? hehe. Well not for long anyway, it's just ganker bait. It's not going to help you with your lack of skills.


There is a certain culture of min/max fittings on BC, feel free to post cheaper fits that work. Both the fits listed work well with lower meta level items.

As for a general level 4 fit to start with I would look at MJD sniper range fits, 100km is a lot of breathing room for your tank.

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