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[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

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Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#921 - 2014-06-14 10:08:32 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Smugest Sniper wrote:
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
If however u wanted to make the information of who mined how much of which rocks easier to digest, then sure id be up for that.
^^This. Either via fleet mining history via scanner/booster/other modules and/or a player's journal, showing player and fleet mining totals, sortable by session and day/week/month/year. I know this maybe a stretch, but simple and easy to use would be nice. Or maybe that would be OP?


When I can see who is ninja looting wrecks in missions and fleet engagements during combat this is in no way OP, it's a necessary function of group dynamics and should definitely be implemented. Make things easy for people to do things together; Core of sandbox elements.

What would be nice is having some kind of Deployable structure that you can sell ore to.

So like you can program it to pay an amount of isk per each type of ore per unit or maybe volume and draw the isk from your wallet or one of your corp's wallet. And it should have it's own fairly large ore bay.

That way you could just set it and for get it. The miners make their profits immediately and the organizer can profit a bit too and it benefits being a cohesive group....

Or maybe they can add these features to the orca/rorqual and give them some utility greater than just afk boosting.

oooooo maybe the tractor beam could initiate the swap so you don't have to be on top of them too! That would be awesome just to tractor from their ore bay straight to your ship.


That's going to far, all we really need is a M3 tracking metric, and it would not be so hard. You can easily reward members in a fleet by M3 mined and of what. The rest makes it far too risk averse and not what eve is more or less about.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#922 - 2014-06-14 10:21:40 UTC
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:


First of all, if I'm mining and a ganker shows, I want to shoot back. Why is that so cotton-picking hard to understand?



We have said over and over and over again, the drone bonuses are enough that in a skiff you can fight a cruiser even with moderate effectiveness. I've KILLED PEOPLE in my Battle Procurer, I have LINKED MANY KILL MAILS where I have dealt with gankers alone.

Drones are an actual weapon system, they are useful, I get a bit over 150 dps in a Procurer with Light Drones, Light drones!

54kehp 151+dps and a point & Web more than sufficient for popping baddies trying to mess with you while mining provided it's not a BC Gang.

Or hell Get a Covy or Retriever and slap on a neutralizer if you are so determined to have high-slot weaponry. Though a Procurer/Skiff is now the Battle Barge of Choice.

https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23969194

https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23850423

https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23784622

https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23712184 (Not even into my armor as primary target as Point)

https://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23844000 (point's get you shiny Kills.)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#923 - 2014-06-14 10:22:37 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
First of all, if I'm mining and a ganker shows, I want to shoot back. Why is that so cotton-picking hard to understand?

Why is it so hard to understand that the Skiff's drone bonus makes it ideal for shooting back?

I feel the following to be the best response here:

This dynamic mechanic needs to operate in three different environments, before perception can change the game play habits of a more than significant group of those who mine effectively solo.

That is a mouthful, for it needs to work in most cases first before anyone trusts it.

In high, this skiff must be able to use a fairly obvious fitting style, (PvP expecting), and show it can survive against a SOLO attacker. And it must do so in the majority of reported events.

The same applies to the second area group, Low and NPC Null. These two areas are effectively similar enough to have the same play impact.

And lastly, that solo skiff needs to survive against the probable single cloaked attacker, which right now is a contradiction in terms, within sov null space.
I say contradiction in terms, because another mechanic is skewing this confidence by making any belief of a solo encounter a bad risk. Cyno use poisons this area for solo play, and should be addressed for greater balance along with it's balancing factors.

We simply cannot trust a solo vs solo encounter when hot dropping is on the table.
And we need to be able to trust this, for perception to carry the weight needed.

Combat mining is already a reality for a more than significant amount of solo players.
Why should EVE continue to incentivize encounter avoidance for them, when it could make fighting back the best response?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#924 - 2014-06-14 11:31:00 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Cyno use poisons this area for solo play, and should be addressed for greater balance along with it's balancing factors.

We simply cannot trust a solo vs solo encounter when hot dropping is on the table.
And we need to be able to trust this, for perception to carry the weight needed.

Combat mining is already a reality for a more than significant amount of solo players.
Why should EVE continue to incentivize encounter avoidance for them, when it could make fighting back the best response?


There already is a moderately reasonable countermeasure for things like this, However I wish Mobile Cyno jammers stopped Black-ops cyno's. Also we've used a tactic of Canned Drag bubbles on a belt, with safe perches for us to enter the belt without being trapped in a bubble, this stopped cloaky hot droppers unless they are flying something really shiney like a T3, and even then those we catch on gates, as they are required to shuffle systems every so often or get in trouble for harassment.

Hot droppers will pretty much ignore mining barges, as long as you aren't in a Hulk or Skinned mackinaw you are usually fine, Skiffs also get dropped once in a while by someone desperate for a kill, but as long as you are paying attention to local a nuet shouldn't be able to sneak up on you and light up. It's simply not worth the Jump fuel to drop on a T1 barge.

I will quote to you something poignant about flying expensive **** like Exhumers in Null. Flying in null-sec is like being in a room, surrounded by other rooms full of pedophiles, if you are not paying attention, you will have a fat one shoved up your noob backside. Being an unattractive target, is one of many safety mechanisms in null-sec.

There are only 3 types of ships that can fit a Cov-ops cyno, and as long as you watch for them, all you need to do to mine safely is put up a normal Cyno jammer off grid a ways from where you operate. Or work in a system with the cyno jammer upgrade installed.

I live in a pocket system where cloaky campers are common, we still mine, we still rat, albeit in less shiny **** and always in a group in hopes that one man can alpha the cyno ship if we get caught.

Operating under the rules of Null-sec, and flying safely is the only reasonably security you can have to not lose your ****.

1 hour of operation in null should get you the minerals to replace a t1 barge, fully fit no problem. You can operate safely and without hassle maybe 6-8 hours a day in some systems, some are abandoned enough in null-sec that you could run a 23/7 operation with very little fear of being caught(dronelands, parts of the north, minor pipe systems, Impass, or unused renter space.)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#925 - 2014-06-14 13:30:51 UTC
Your explanation needs to address perception, in order to affect change of habits from evasion to playing.

It doesn't matter if the solution exists, if it is not used.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#926 - 2014-06-14 14:29:53 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:

... Killmails...

.... (point's get you shiny Kills.)


Forum Rules

34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
More often than not, posts of this nature are made with inflammatory intent and are designed to promote trolling and flaming. Therefore, the posting of links to kill reports from any third party site, or the direct copy-pasting of kill reports from in game is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online Forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel. Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#927 - 2014-06-14 15:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Erutpar Ambient wrote:

Like i keep saying over and over. I know that there is some reward to trusting others and working together. But what I'm saying is that the work involved in getting that benefit is magnitudes greater than the reward. That's why "Grouping play" (or what i define it as) needs to have better reward vs work ratio. So either reward needs to increase or work needs to decrease.

So by calling miners notorious for being etc etc, i guess this means you're not a miner. However you obviously feel you're entitled to comment on how their game mechanics should/could work and blame the climate of the profession on the mindset of the players instead of failing to realize that the mechanics are what drive people to give off those perceptions.


there is no sense in this statement.

why cant i be a miner and say miners are notorious for being lazy? have u never heard of a generalised statement?
Improving the layout of who's mined what would increase the reward/work ratio. And do it without adding rewards where none are warranted.

Dont blame the mechanics for ur lack of trust. Dont blame the mechanics for u short sighted greed.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#928 - 2014-06-14 22:15:15 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Smugest Sniper wrote:

... Killmails...

.... (point's get you shiny Kills.)


Forum Rules

34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
More often than not, posts of this nature are made with inflammatory intent and are designed to promote trolling and flaming. Therefore, the posting of links to kill reports from any third party site, or the direct copy-pasting of kill reports from in game is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online Forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel. Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel.


If any GM has a problem with posting proof of deeds completed showing what can be done with a relevant topic in discussion in this thread, namely that these changes are indeed a step in the right direction and that you can win against garden variety gankers and harassment, then they should be the ones to point the finger, not you.

Rule lawyering aside,

@Nikk Narrel: Me shitposting in a thread long since it needed to end, and a new thread born from it's ashes, brings me to this conclusion. Innovation of technique is something sorely lacking in the mining community.

Three techniques I have discovered for mining in any dangerous space are so wonderfully hilarious.

-Mining in cosmic signatures like relic sites that MUST be scanned down
-Using empty combat sites or decayed but not exploded sites that need combat probes to find you
-using scattered belt configurations to stay out of harms way and warp out quickly if someone does come to a belt you are in, also using 'bounce rocks' to quickly reposition in a non uniform belt

Mining in high-sec is the least creative environment to develop new and interesting techniques by which to do the same activity as the general perception to most people is you do not want to expend effort. You cuddle into a nice U shape belt and eat rocks as long as you want then pack up go home or move to a new belt. This is not the practice in more dangerous parts of space save SOV null.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#929 - 2014-06-14 23:19:37 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:

Drones are an actual weapon system, they are useful, I get a bit over 150 dps in a Procurer with Light Drones, Light drones!

Of course Procurers/Skiffs are the barge of choice for shooting back. However, they're also the only choice in surviving an encounter. And that's the problem i have.

Yes they're the only barge that can effectively return fire, by why are they the only barges with survivability?

As a multi account user I would love to have the option of saving one of my ships that gets tackled. But as of now unless it's a procurer or skiff they're not going to last long enough for anyone to even warp to them.

Or in a fleet with a mix of Skiffs/Hulks, all that is going to happen is the hulks will be targeted first and the skiffs will be ignored. There is a very narrow margin for them to be able to destroy the attacker(s) before the hulks themselves get destroyed. And that's the whole point. Even if they took away drones from Hulks so they Must be supported, Hulks would be in a much better place with better EHP. Also their name would make sense again.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Your explanation needs to address perception, in order to affect change of habits from evasion to playing.

It doesn't matter if the solution exists, if it is not used.

Actually, if mobile cyno jammers could jam Covert Cynos, it would go a long way to enhancing mining security. They'd be more apt to mine in a camped system. However, it wouldn't entice them to engage any more than what happens now.

Also relying on pvp ships to guard mining ops is pretty much unrealistic. So i wouldn't call a solution at all.

All barges need to be on the same level of survivability. Only then will a Skiff be able to successfully defend any other barges.
Like my idea i made about half this thread ago, i think that each barge should have some group beneficial mechanic instead of just being what they are now. A Hulk would add yield to the group, a Skiff would add defense to the group, and a Mackinaw could add support via a logistic drone bonus. The only changes needed would be adjust their EHP and give the Mackinaw logistic drone bonus. The only things this would effect are suicide ganking in high sec and allow barges to be able to stay on field during a fight elsewhere. Mackinaws would not be any better for solo with that kind of change.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#930 - 2014-06-15 00:51:21 UTC
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
There are players in the game that have learned to avoid 'group play' due to bad experiences. I am one of those.Sad

Don't worry about the dedicated solo miners.
CCP doesn't.
CCP thinks there are so few of us, our absence from the game wouldn't even be noticed.Roll
I hope they're right, but I doubt it.Blink

I will be mining in high sec until one of three things happens:
a> my account runs out (in November) and I decide I no longer need to play this game.
b> CCP makes solo mining in high sec so unprofitable, it simply isn't done anymore.
c> CCP enacts a means for miners to fight back (not playing 'turtle', but actually shooting back)

I believe "A" will occur
"B" looks like a good chance after "A" happens (which could of kill the game)
"C" doesn't look to be even an outside chance (at least, not soon enough to save the game if "B" happens).

In answer to C I'll point at the skiff. You don't need gun slots to defend yourself.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that a single character will perform all the different roles less effectively than a group that specializes.


First of all, if I'm mining and a ganker shows, I want to shoot back. Why is that so cotton-picking hard to understand?

Second, I do not have the funds or the computer to run multiple characters at a time, so I am doing what I like with the one (which does NOT include hunting for PvP).
I am aware I can have 3 on one account and see no reason to go thru the hassel of turning off the training for one just to train another when the first can have the training of both. and I do not have the funds to do that 'two-character' training BS.

Sweet drunken Jesus, for the last time DRONES. They let you shoot back at the enemy. What are you not connecting here?

Secondly, you're still not answering why a single person should be able to perform as well as a group. There's no argument about having multiple accounts. Whether those accounts are yours or controlled by a real person is irrelevant. Why should one person be able to do all the jobs of a group? And what's to stop the group from doing the same thing?
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#931 - 2014-06-15 01:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aalysia Valkeiper
I never said a solo should mine as well as a group (that's silly).

And I do use drones for my miners' defense. I use drones against the rats with no trouble, but when a ganker shows up, he is ALWAYS prepared for anything I can do to him. His scout has told him what type of drones I have deployed and what type of ship I have.

And why is that? the ganker has no trouble knowing exactly what defenses the particular miners have. He chooses what type of miner he wants to get, equips for it, and finds it.

if he wants a heavily-tanked target, he equips with high dps. if he doesn't want to risk a lot of isk (particularly in high sec, where he KNOWS the ship will be lost), he equips lower dps and maybe equip to tackle.

whatever he chooses, he then sends 'scouts' to discover when those nice, juicy targets are, the scout gives him a nice point, and the ganker pops right on target to drop a unarmed and helpless miner.

Having ships which appear to be those nice, helpless miners, but are in truth hell-in-space DPS would certainly add some uncertainty to that formula. You should notice I said nothing about that fake miner actually being able to mine. Its entire point is to pull the cowardly, let's-kill-easy-targets ganker in and turns the table on him.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#932 - 2014-06-16 02:11:34 UTC
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
I never said a solo should mine as well as a group (that's silly).

And I do use drones for my miners' defense. I use drones against the rats with no trouble, but when a ganker shows up, he is ALWAYS prepared for anything I can do to him. His scout has told him what type of drones I have deployed and what type of ship I have.

And why is that? the ganker has no trouble knowing exactly what defenses the particular miners have. He chooses what type of miner he wants to get, equips for it, and finds it.

if he wants a heavily-tanked target, he equips with high dps. if he doesn't want to risk a lot of isk (particularly in high sec, where he KNOWS the ship will be lost), he equips lower dps and maybe equip to tackle.

whatever he chooses, he then sends 'scouts' to discover when those nice, juicy targets are, the scout gives him a nice point, and the ganker pops right on target to drop a unarmed and helpless miner.

Having ships which appear to be those nice, helpless miners, but are in truth hell-in-space DPS would certainly add some uncertainty to that formula. You should notice I said nothing about that fake miner actually being able to mine. Its entire point is to pull the cowardly, let's-kill-easy-targets ganker in and turns the table on him.


You have a big enough drone bay now to equip two different drone sets. that point is moot.

If you pay attention you'll know you are being scouted. You'll know if you are being scanned for your fit or not. this is again why it's also bad to be in high-sec as you get too comfortable with the illusion of safety and don't realize what people are doing around you.

The purpose of our advice is to make you not look like easy meat, which most players do in high-sec, if you become a hard target you survive better overall.

Proc-skiff's are hell DPS, but in high-sec when they can bring an Alpha nado etc fleet to bear on you, your only real protection is warning systems, watching local(and flagging ganking organizations with standings), and being ready to leave should a fleet big enough appear to smack you. This is not a problem with low or null as any big fleet like that usually gets the attention of bigger fish and dies or otherwise get's engaged.

The Aggressor in any engagement holds the advantage in that he decides when to strike, the defense while usually able to hold on for certain periods must be ready for when the attack comes. Surprise elements kill more people in high-sec than most activities, save perhaps retardation.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#933 - 2014-06-16 05:38:59 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:
Three techniques I have discovered for mining in any dangerous space are so wonderfully hilarious.

-Mining in cosmic signatures like relic sites that MUST be scanned down
-Using empty combat sites or decayed but not exploded sites that need combat probes to find you
-using scattered belt configurations to stay out of harms way and warp out quickly if someone does come to a belt you are in, also using 'bounce rocks' to quickly reposition in a non uniform belt
Another nice addition would be: Mining Signatures that are on the move. You'll have to be on the move to keep yourself in range of the resources, which, as a side effect, requires hostiles to consider you being at a (slightly) position once they combat probed you. Just like CCP wanted from the beginning.

NPE – ISD – RIP
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#934 - 2014-06-16 07:21:09 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
Smugest Sniper wrote:
Three techniques I have discovered for mining in any dangerous space are so wonderfully hilarious.

-Mining in cosmic signatures like relic sites that MUST be scanned down
-Using empty combat sites or decayed but not exploded sites that need combat probes to find you
-using scattered belt configurations to stay out of harms way and warp out quickly if someone does come to a belt you are in, also using 'bounce rocks' to quickly reposition in a non uniform belt
Another nice addition would be: Mining Signatures that are on the move. You'll have to be on the move to keep yourself in range of the resources, which, as a side effect, requires hostiles to consider you being at a (slightly) position once they combat probed you. Just like CCP wanted from the beginning.


Hell just requiring ore sites to be scanned down again would be more practical then the shenanigans now.

Shotgunning your fleet's tackle into a system looking for easy kills makes it far to easy to catch people again.
ELWhappo Sanchez
#935 - 2014-06-16 07:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: ELWhappo Sanchez
what I would like to see is mining fleets that the orca pilot can set the ore type and price.
then when a fleet member puts the ore into the orca it pays them on the spot.
that would make mining fleets work so much better than they do now.
you could even have it set the ore prices from eve central data automatically base on av buy orders in that region or the closest trade hub.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#936 - 2014-06-16 09:40:41 UTC
ELWhappo Sanchez wrote:
what I would like to see is mining fleets that the orca pilot can set the ore type and price.
then when a fleet member puts the ore into the orca it pays them on the spot.
that would make mining fleets work so much better than they do now.
you could even have it set the ore prices from eve central data automatically base on av buy orders in that region or the closest trade hub.


In theory you could already do this with a bot mechanism to track user input, However I do not think that you will ever get a mechanic to purchase items in space, as they are never secure.

We've discussed this previously, paying for things that are not in station will almost never occur.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#937 - 2014-06-16 20:03:00 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:
ELWhappo Sanchez wrote:
what I would like to see is mining fleets that the orca pilot can set the ore type and price.
then when a fleet member puts the ore into the orca it pays them on the spot.
that would make mining fleets work so much better than they do now.
you could even have it set the ore prices from eve central data automatically base on av buy orders in that region or the closest trade hub.


In theory you could already do this with a bot mechanism to track user input, However I do not think that you will ever get a mechanic to purchase items in space, as they are never secure.

We've discussed this previously, paying for things that are not in station will almost never occur.


especially with the possibility of gankers coming around and taking it (or someone saying they did)
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#938 - 2014-06-17 02:08:15 UTC
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:
Smugest Sniper wrote:
ELWhappo Sanchez wrote:
what I would like to see is mining fleets that the orca pilot can set the ore type and price.
then when a fleet member puts the ore into the orca it pays them on the spot.
that would make mining fleets work so much better than they do now.
you could even have it set the ore prices from eve central data automatically base on av buy orders in that region or the closest trade hub.


In theory you could already do this with a bot mechanism to track user input, However I do not think that you will ever get a mechanic to purchase items in space, as they are never secure.

We've discussed this previously, paying for things that are not in station will almost never occur.


especially with the possibility of gankers coming around and taking it (or someone saying they did)


Exactly why.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#939 - 2014-06-17 02:30:10 UTC
Smugest Sniper wrote:
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:


especially with the possibility of gankers coming around and taking it (or someone saying they did)


Exactly why.

What does this even mean?

In general if there was something, maybe a pos module or even just corp only buy orders, it would help a lot with the work load of the industrial side of corps. I mean you can set sov bills to pay automatically allowing for limitless holdings with no effort, why can't you set up ore buyout programs that pay pilots automatically limited to the size of your corp's industrial membership.
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#940 - 2014-06-17 02:43:18 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Smugest Sniper wrote:
Aalysia Valkeiper wrote:


especially with the possibility of gankers coming around and taking it (or someone saying they did)


Exactly why.

What does this even mean?

In general if there was something, maybe a pos module or even just corp only buy orders, it would help a lot with the work load of the industrial side of corps. I mean you can set sov bills to pay automatically allowing for limitless holdings with no effort, why can't you set up ore buyout programs that pay pilots automatically limited to the size of your corp's industrial membership.


Not in space, you can do this type of thing in a station, but you never pay for things in space unless you have no choice or will risk losing it.

Most corps have a mineral or Ore Buyback program, but transactions for mined ore while still in space tends to hold a lot of folly. Atleast until the POS modules come out for insta refine and compression at the POS.