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[Crius] Starbase feedback

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Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2014-06-13 22:02:33 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
0.5 or higher as of Crius. We changed a >= to a > so the code does what the authoring was always assuming it did. I just fixed the display text for the attributes this afternoon to reflect this, but the code should already be in place.


I'm being stupid for asking this since I think you pretty clearly articulated it above, but are you saying you can run moon mining arrays in 0.4 space? Are other modules (hello reactors) that are currently restricted to 0.3 or lower space also getting the make-over?

(As an aside, I've never put up a POS in 0.4 but seem to remember some game guides indicating charters were required for them. That always seemed weird to me and I wondered if that was actually the case).


Yes and yes. Nothing has changed on the structures themselves, we've just changed the code so "0.4" means "up to 0.4" rather than "below 0.4".

Actually, I hope you changed the code to be " less than 0.45 " IIRC truesec less than 0.45 is rounded down to 0.4 in the game. Correct?

MDD


This particular bit of code converts the real security value to a single-place decimal (actually, to a integer representation between -1000 and +1000, but whatever) prior to doing the comparison, rounding the same way that we do for ingame sec display.


Do you plan on then going back to 50% to keep the current supply/demand ratios the same then?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#102 - 2014-06-13 22:06:56 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Blue Harrier wrote:
Thanks for the earlier reply to my other post.

Now a question;
We now have the facility to anchor a POS in high sector space but do I take it we will not be able to harvest moons?

I did try and set up a Moon Harvesting Array but got a long winded message about it had to be in 0.4 or less (I think). The message vanishes far too quickly to read it all and because it has multiple lines it’s very difficult to read all of it in one go.


The tl;dr: You cannot do moon mining in .4 or higher.

That is it. I hope that one day that changes. I've never been a fan of artificial and/or arbitrary limitations. Then again, it would probably completely crash the moongoo market.


0.5 or higher as of Crius. We changed a >= to a > so the code does what the authoring was always assuming it did. I just fixed the display text for the attributes this afternoon to reflect this, but the code should already be in place.

This change stands to add 11243 moons to the available mining pool. This is roughly 175 r64s, assuming constant distribution. Is it your intention to decrease the value of moon minerals in this fashion?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Maratega
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2014-06-14 01:33:54 UTC
I know this is not related to industry so close, but
one of the most bad thing with the pos system for me now, onlineing many defensive modules like 20-30 modules with 2 min timer, is serious pain.

Need reduced online time for those, or need a queue for pos module actions like online offline unanchor ..
Queue system like skill training, when i can set all the actions i want, and come back after 2 hour, to check te status.

This is something its possible in the future or you guys want rework the whole pos system so wedont expect better handling for the old system?
Dr Cow
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2014-06-14 01:37:37 UTC
So does this allow fighter assignment in .4 systems as well?
Sales Alt negrodamus
Sanctuary of Shadows
#105 - 2014-06-14 01:45:16 UTC
Maratega wrote:
I know this is not related to industry so close, but
one of the most bad thing with the pos system for me now, onlineing many defensive modules like 20-30 modules with 2 min timer, is serious pain.

Need reduced online time for those, or need a queue for pos module actions like online offline unanchor ..
Queue system like skill training, when i can set all the actions i want, and come back after 2 hour, to check te status.

This is something its possible in the future or you guys want rework the whole pos system so wedont expect better handling for the old system?


the odds of anything nontrivial happening with the pos code is zero within margin of error.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#106 - 2014-06-14 01:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenneth Feld
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
0.4 does not require charters.

Thanks for answering that, I've never tried to put a POS in 0.4 because some of the guides mention that starbase charters were required. There seemed to be little reason to put up a POS in a 0.4 given it seemed to have drawbacks of not doing everything a low-sec POS could do (reactions) while simultaneously requiring annoying Hi-Sec widgets to run.



They *USED* to be required. CCP removed that restriction several years ago

Tyrannis
Release date: May 26, 2010
Laendra
Universalis Imperium
Goonswarm Federation
#107 - 2014-06-14 03:40:28 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
0.4 does not require charters.

Thanks for answering that, I've never tried to put a POS in 0.4 because some of the guides mention that starbase charters were required. There seemed to be little reason to put up a POS in a 0.4 given it seemed to have drawbacks of not doing everything a low-sec POS could do (reactions) while simultaneously requiring annoying Hi-Sec widgets to run.



They *USED* to be required. CCP removed that restriction several years ago

Tyrannis
Release date: May 26, 2010


As you can surmise, it's been a long time since I put a POS up in empire ;)
Alain Kinsella
#108 - 2014-06-14 06:17:03 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Careby wrote:
I may have missed a detail or two, but isn't there going to be a problem with the number of available office slots at stations with research?

Currently a small corp uses a POS for research because of limited station research slots, and can locate their office at any station in the system. If those corps move their research from POS to station post-Crius, it seems to me they will have to locate their office at a station that has research. And because of system-wide cost scaling, there seems to be little incentive to manufacture at stations without research. Which would seem to lead everyone to congregate at the research stations, which would then lead to high office rent at those stations. This might make it very expensive to run corporation research jobs.

A large corporation doing research may have no problem with high office rent. An individual doing research doesn't need to rent an office. But a small corporation which does need a corporation hangar for blueprint research may find the office cost difficult to bear. Are there any planned changes to the number of available offices and/or the rent structure? And if office rent will not be an issue, why will anyone use a non-research station for industry?



This is a very valid concern and something we will keep a close eye on.


Have you considered merging the Research station service with the Industry one? With this update, the two feel a bit more disconnected than necessary.

One upside of a change like that would be an 'opening up' of more systems to work from. My 'home' region of Derelik, for example, could use a nice shaking up like this (though with the moon bombshell that region and others like it may go a bit nuts for the next few months). Blink

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).
Adrian Dixon
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction
-affliction-
#109 - 2014-06-14 12:15:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrian Dixon
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello people,
  • New corporations have to wait 7 days before anchoring Control Towers


    • What is the intended purpose for this?


    It's to provide a waiting time when receiving a war declaration before forming a new corporation and moving all the Starbase assets there.



    To build on this when a certain percentage of players from a corporation under a wardec move to the same corporation the aggressor should get a free war against that corporation with the sorter 4 hour start timer. Mass corp jumpers are one of the bigger and more obvious problems with highsec wars.
    BigWolfUK
    Sons-of-Liberty
    #110 - 2014-06-14 14:04:03 UTC
    Adrian Dixon wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Valterra Craven wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello people,
  • New corporations have to wait 7 days before anchoring Control Towers


    • What is the intended purpose for this?


    It's to provide a waiting time when receiving a war declaration before forming a new corporation and moving all the Starbase assets there.



    To build on this when a certain percentage of players from a corporation under a wardec move to the same corporation the aggressor should get a free war against that corporation with the sorter 4 hour start timer. Mass corp jumpers are one of the bigger and more obvious problems with highsec wars.


    And if you force them to be dec'd regardless, they'll simply stay logged off Roll
    CynoNet Two
    GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
    Goonswarm Federation
    #111 - 2014-06-14 14:38:06 UTC  |  Edited by: CynoNet Two
    Maratega wrote:
    I know this is not related to industry so close, but
    one of the most bad thing with the pos system for me now, onlineing many defensive modules like 20-30 modules with 2 min timer, is serious pain.

    Need reduced online time for those, or need a queue for pos module actions like online offline unanchor ..
    Queue system like skill training, when i can set all the actions i want, and come back after 2 hour, to check te status.

    This is something its possible in the future or you guys want rework the whole pos system so wedont expect better handling for the old system?


    Dude you should have played a few years ago. Five minutes to anchor, five minutes to online. Minimum. Unanchoring was even worse, with like 10-20mins times for stuff like manufacturing arrays or labs.
    An overhauled POS system might get some kind of queue, but I can't ever see it happening for the current system.

    The main thing we need for starbases right now is a balancing pass on the weapons. Most of their stats are identical to the original release in the 2004 Exodus expansion - which pre-dates capital ships of any kind. Since then there have been huge increases in general ship hitpoints, including ten-fold increases for capitals, and cruisers able to pack more hitpoints than some actual POS guns.
    We've seen a rebalance of speed, with many ships easily able to beat the tracking of even the fastest weapons. Revisited ship ewar never made it through to starbases, where POS scrams don't shutdown MWD or MJDs, and modules like damps and ECM take over a minute to lock their natural target of logistics cruisers. Energy neuts have long been rendered useless by 5 minute siege cycles, and by fighter-bombers able to incapacitate modules in seconds.

    This doesn't have be a major project, and it serves as an excellent way to tide us over with starbases until a full overhaul is in sight. A balancing pass on starbase weapon stats is no different from the recent reviews of Hybrid weapons, Citadel torps or Interdictors. But it needs to be done, because right now our Deathstars have the firepower of an X-Wing.
    Lanek Thall
    Doomheim
    #112 - 2014-06-14 15:18:21 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Velicitia wrote:
    Looks like the (hisec) Repro Array is misbehaving.


    Skills --> 5/5/5 Refining, Refinery Efficiency, Veldspar Processing
    Batch --> 1 x veldspar (100 units)
    Edit -- oh, have the 4% implant too.

    POS Result -- 215
    Raw Spreadsheet Result (POS) -- 311.25

    For reference, stations seem to be OK:
    Tax --> 5% (as listed in game -- standings actually bring this down to approximately 3% based on real losses)
    Overall -> "70% yield" in station, according to ingame repro window

    Station Result -- 289
    Raw Spreadsheet Result (Station) -- 289.67


    Yes indeed, Reprocessing Arrays aren't taking skills into account yet.



    will they take them into account on release?
    Kenneth Feld
    Habitual Euthanasia
    Pandemic Legion
    #113 - 2014-06-14 18:44:48 UTC
    Lanek Thall wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Velicitia wrote:
    Looks like the (hisec) Repro Array is misbehaving.


    Skills --> 5/5/5 Refining, Refinery Efficiency, Veldspar Processing
    Batch --> 1 x veldspar (100 units)
    Edit -- oh, have the 4% implant too.

    POS Result -- 215
    Raw Spreadsheet Result (POS) -- 311.25

    For reference, stations seem to be OK:
    Tax --> 5% (as listed in game -- standings actually bring this down to approximately 3% based on real losses)
    Overall -> "70% yield" in station, according to ingame repro window

    Station Result -- 289
    Raw Spreadsheet Result (Station) -- 289.67


    Yes indeed, Reprocessing Arrays aren't taking skills into account yet.



    will they take them into account on release?


    They said several weeks ago, they have the technology and they plan to do it, just isn't on sisi yet
    Dirk MacGirk
    Specter Syndicate
    #114 - 2014-06-14 19:29:20 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Bridgette d'Iberville wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    0.5 or higher as of Crius. We changed a >= to a > so the code does what the authoring was always assuming it did. I just fixed the display text for the attributes this afternoon to reflect this, but the code should already be in place.


    I'm being stupid for asking this since I think you pretty clearly articulated it above, but are you saying you can run moon mining arrays in 0.4 space? Are other modules (hello reactors) that are currently restricted to 0.3 or lower space also getting the make-over?

    (As an aside, I've never put up a POS in 0.4 but seem to remember some game guides indicating charters were required for them. That always seemed weird to me and I wondered if that was actually the case).


    Yes and yes. Nothing has changed on the structures themselves, we've just changed the code so "0.4" means "up to 0.4" rather than "below 0.4".


    Greyscale - What does CCP's economics group have to say about this? I'd imagine its been cleared as a good thing for the markets or that the "gameplay" associated with it has an overwhelming benefit.
    DoToo Foo
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #115 - 2014-06-15 02:59:01 UTC
    CCP Nullarbor wrote:


    Tax rate at a POS makes no sense, since you can only install corporation jobs that get paid from the corporation wallet, you would only be taxing yourself.



    There exist small to medium corps that get together for industry. The game mechanics so far have restricted the number of corps doing this; but they do exist.

    We charge pilots using other divisions to do their research/industry, with the tax being paid into the master wallet. We use this to subsidize POS fuel;

    Eve University apparently does the same.

    We were hoping that while industry and corporations were being re-worked; we would get more control.

    I understand corp roles are being re-worked next round, but please don't reduce the limited options for tax that I already have.

    http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/
    Swidgen
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #116 - 2014-06-15 05:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Swidgen
    delete
    BigWolfUK
    Sons-of-Liberty
    #117 - 2014-06-15 12:20:04 UTC
    DoToo Foo wrote:
    CCP Nullarbor wrote:


    Tax rate at a POS makes no sense, since you can only install corporation jobs that get paid from the corporation wallet, you would only be taxing yourself.



    There exist small to medium corps that get together for industry. The game mechanics so far have restricted the number of corps doing this; but they do exist.

    We charge pilots using other divisions to do their research/industry, with the tax being paid into the master wallet. We use this to subsidize POS fuel;

    Eve University apparently does the same.

    We were hoping that while industry and corporations were being re-worked; we would get more control.

    I understand corp roles are being re-worked next round, but please don't reduce the limited options for tax that I already have.


    This...
    I would of thought CCP would have known it was used in this method already...
    Alain Kinsella
    #118 - 2014-06-15 13:12:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Alain Kinsella
    After finally having some time, I anchored my first ever POS and brought online a few modules I wanted to test with.

    Thankfully I've had experience watching others do the online/offline thing, so I knew what to expect there (plus I helped with PI requirement planning for the last one, when fuel blocks got introduced). My questions/feedback are regarding the modules.

    -> As I mentioned in the Research thread, my Research V skill is not being taken into account. Though some are saying its a UI bug, the timer appeared off as well by the end. I appear to have confirmed this, as the research POS lab is being accounted for both in UI and timer.

    I do like the risk/reward thing here for research. Research V and a decent lab can cut research times by over half, which should certainly help when dealing with larger PBOs than the ones I'm playing with (biggest ones are Thrasher and one of the new mobile things).

    -> What is the background / codebase behind the Compression Array? Its insane. 20 Mil m3 capacity, compresses 10:1 by volume instantly. This basically turns every moon into a potential Rorqual, minus the boosts. I certainly hope there are discussions underway for the Rorqual's future - it was, honestly, the only capital ship I had any interest to fly...

    "The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

    Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).
    Teddyboom
    NRDS Anonyme
    We're all going to die.
    #119 - 2014-06-15 14:16:01 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Valterra Craven wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Hello people,
  • New corporations have to wait 7 days before anchoring Control Towers


    • What is the intended purpose for this?


    It's to provide a waiting time when receiving a war declaration before forming a new corporation and moving all the Starbase assets there.


    Corps who are not in high-sec shouldn't be impact by this change.
    It would be good that the restriction of 7 day is active only for high sec anchoring.
    Dirk MacGirk
    Specter Syndicate
    #120 - 2014-06-15 18:48:22 UTC
    Reshuffle all the moons in 0.4 as of the Crius release

    A land rush by those most connected with the community, those most informed, has already begun. As with the last major moon change, where moon deposits were changed, nobody should know until the change actually hits the server.