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Pos Market Hangar
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Virgil Armstrong
Sunrise Services
#21 - 2014-06-07 09:46:18 UTC
I very much like this idea within an industrial context.

For instance, there are corp members making drones and want to sell them on the public market, but also to corp members.

Another example are gas miners wanting to sell gas to the members that run refineries.

Right now this can of course be facilitated with containers, eve mails, forum buy/sell orders etc. but this is not ideal. Maybe you want to sell 100 drones, but members wants to buy only 10. This requires 10 separate elements of communication and transaction with members who might not be on at the same time.

PopeUrban wrote:
CCP doesn't WANT wspace living to be convenient or easy because it's overall intent is and always has been space that's phenomenally hard or impossible to "own" or "fortify" Current wspace residents are anomalies the system was never designed for and should not be catered to as the choice to take up residence in wspace should always be undertaken with the assumption that it is a place you were never meant to live, that it's going to be a pain to do, and that you aren't going to enjoy even a slice of the infrastructure of k-space. That's an intentional and necessary part of wormhole play. The more infrastructure you add to wspace, the more it just becomes kspace 2.0

I've said this before, but a better option would be the removal of all identity information about wormholes entirely, including mass limits, lifetime, etc. and a matching increase in payouts for blue stuff. Wormhole collapse should be a constant fear, not an easily mitigated and knowable factor that I can map for my whole corp with a little extra software and web browsing.


Sure, wormhole space should be hard, but I hear PopeUrban talking mostly about the intel side. If you want the infrastructure side also hard, where would you draw the line? Why even be able to manufacture stuff in a WH POS? CCP didn't design the current POS mechanics for it to be harder in wormhole space. There simply is no market pos module because k-space already had markets.

I do not mind for the intel gathering side being harder, but I would like to see more industrials moving to WH space, and being able to setup larger industrial chains and have some infrastructure support for that, and not being totally dependent on meta-mechanics.

In my opinion the design for POS market modules should be fairly simple, especially in the light of CCP's 6 week agile release cycle. There is no need to connect to the public market, just an extension of a standard POS array.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#22 - 2014-06-07 10:13:50 UTC
This is redundant. All items a corporation might need for its members can be distributed through the ship and corp hanger arrays.

The closest you could get would them opening up wh to sov and building outposts or something there, along with mebe those cool player-built gates they keep taunting us with to link up with other wormholes.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#23 - 2014-06-09 23:42:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Trinkets friend
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Not only that, but having hulls+fittings in your market will also allow you to react accordingly to - for example- a T1 cruiser-gang running into your door.


"Why we do what we do every night pinky! We drop 4 Prot's and 6 Guardians on it like always! Muahahaha!"

regarding the OP,


  • how many market slots do you think this needs?
    • I mean, a decent market in hisec has the capability to hold all 8-9000 or whatever (nerds, find the number) of possible items on the market. In w-space you may not need Yan-Jung Relic items and the like, but even setting up markets with slots sufficient for ammunition alone would have about 300 different types. Even if you just consider popular ammunition types, you're well over 120 different types of ammo.
  • Who is going to use it?
    • As pointed out before, a lot of corporations have a public hangar bay, usually slot 1, where the corporation places items (such as ammo) for general usage. This doesn't break anything, it may cost your corp some cash, and probably ends up stolen or lost if the CHA is blown up, but so what? It obviates the need to install a market facility which is on a per system (in fact, per POS) basis.
  • On that note, think about the programming needed.
    • The market function in EVE is simply a database functionality similar in operation to a publicly viewable webshop which allows the users to browse all available instances of market calls and puts. This is in essence similar to a stock market, restricted region by region. To create a new market for one POS would require CCP to create a functional database FROM SCRATCH whenever you anchor a POS Market Array, and then uninstall the database structure LIVE and in REAL TIME whenever you unachor it and decide to move it away from your SMA because your mother loving Naglfar bumps off it.
    Nope. Nope, nope, nope, nope.
    Outposts, you will say, are similar. No. outposts are large, hard to manufacture, one per system instances which are added to an existing database (one per k-space region) with plenty of advanced warning to CCP to prepare the database to handle the incoming instance. They also cannot be uninstalled.
  • Who's going to sell that much anyway?
    • I am one of the very, very few toons in EVE with Tycoon trained to level 4. At level 4 i have 329 maximum open market orders. If we had a POS Market Array I would, personally, not even be able to fill all ammo orders on market myself. The majority of toons have less than 100K skill points in Trade. How functional would a wormhole market be? Especially considering it will likely be available to corporation only. Even in nullsec, you can conduct economic warfare via remote buy and sell orders in regions where you cannot dock due to standings.
  • Will such markets be available on the market browser?
    • In nullsec, as said above, you can jump into eg; Curse or Deklein, and open your market tab and prior to an invasion, drop 200M ISK to buy up all the cynosural field generator modules on market, and 500M to clear out the stocks of Liquid Ozone, and re-seed them onto market at astronomical prices.
    how will this work in wormholes? Is the market only visible to members of a corporation? is it only visisble to those within 3km of the POS Market Array? if not, someone can drop into system and clean you out and flip your goods.
  • What happens to the goods on market when the array is unanchored or destroyed?
    • Thanks, CEO dude, for letting eg; Blood union vape our POS. i just lost 30 fitted Guardian hulls i was sure you'dd buy for an exhoorbitant markup but never did, so they sat around on market for months and everyone just went to jjita to buy and fit new ones themselves. But now they're all gone into the aether or dropped out of the POS Market Array (damn you loot fairy) and i got no insurance on them.


QED, this idea is impractical, stupid, and sucks the donkey.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Virgil Armstrong
Sunrise Services
#24 - 2014-06-10 19:19:13 UTC
I answered the questions as to how I see it. OP, what do you think?


  • Who is going to use it?

It's not going to be used for public goods, like corp ammo. It might be used by individual industrialists to keep their production processes separate. For instance, one member mines gas, another one buys the gas from the market module. Another example, one user explores and gets salvage materials which is bought by another player that produces rigs.


  • Who's going to sell that much anyway?
  • On that note, think about the programming needed.

It will not be a public market, so no connection needed to the regional/universal market system. It's a market in the sense that it will facilitate trading within a POS. Think of it as a personal hangar array but added to your personal storage there is a hangar bay for sell orders and a hangar bay of buy orders. These can be flat lists with a filter option or a market tree, showing only the parts of the tree that are actually in the list.


  • How many market slots do you think this needs?

Don't know for sure yet, but feeling says it should be limited to volume, let's say 50.000 m3 per player, buy and sell orders put together. The number of orders a player can have is determined by the trading skills.


  • Will such markets be available on the market browser?

No, the orders will only be viewable when inside the POS by corp members, and you "Access Market POS". Basically just like the current material access behaviour for other hangars.


  • What happens to the goods on market when the array is unanchored or destroyed?

They disappear, just like behaviour for the current hangars (I think). The point is, if you're not selling your 30 Guardian hulls, bring them to Jita yourself. Next, take down the Market module because people are not using it, and fit some more guns to defend against Blood Union P
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#25 - 2014-06-13 07:41:23 UTC
I have no input, other than to say I still think this idea has a positive direction to go for Eve. As to what direction that ends up being, I am not the one to say. Other players or more likely CCP would likely decide what the direction this idea takes. As far as any responsibility to other players for answering their questions about how a pos market hangar would work, I think I have already voiced my opinions and thoughts on the subject. Beyond that, I leave it to other players to either support this idea or not.

If anyone wants any specific statements/thoughts/etc added to OP, please say so. Otherwise, I will observe only.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-06-13 10:40:53 UTC
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Anyone in the pos shield can make purchases;


I see s slight hiccup in that plan. Lol

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Joraa Starkmanir
Station Spinners United
#27 - 2014-06-13 13:02:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Joraa Starkmanir
Debora Tsung wrote:
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Anyone in the pos shield can make purchases;


I see s slight hiccup in that plan. Lol


Whats wrong with that? You can password protect the pos shield, and you would get payed for anything they buy.

Its basicly a take what you want as long as you pay for it, system.

Set up sell orders for ammo/drones/modules/ship that is used, and make buy orders for loot/salvage. It takes out the biggest issue with wh corp recruitment, 100% trust. If you dont have to trust everyone with access to ALL the ammo/drones/whatever you can take in more people, this means more people may get to try WH and more people may find something they like instead of leaving the game again.

Since corp roles/management is already on the roadmap, its natural to atleast bring this up before everything is set in stone
Pearl Canopus
#28 - 2014-07-10 14:40:16 UTC
I see the "black market" idea needs to be discussed beside the view at the new profession "smuggler".

You need to trade from ship to ship.
You need to trade from hangar to ship.
You need white- and blacklists for hangar and forcefield access but no need for password for tradepoint forcefields. All players on whitelists or not on blacklist have access to the forcefield granted by default.

You only need to keep out surprises... (WTF?)
in example
- "Thukker Tribe Shield Hardener" for shutting down all modules (setting offline) within the force field (no weapons, no cargo scanners...)
- "Intaki Syndicate Shield Hardener" for lowering down scannability of the "hidden outpost" - no invisibility but harder to locate!
- maybe further systems like that

Taking down the shield would disable the special features too. The "hardener" won't increase shields healthpoints.


All other idea to make the smuggling profession possible would be off-topic here.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#29 - 2014-09-02 17:48:31 UTC
Pearl Canopus wrote:
I see the "black market" idea needs to be discussed beside the view at the new profession "smuggler".

You need to trade from ship to ship.
You need to trade from hangar to ship.
You need white- and blacklists for hangar and forcefield access but no need for password for tradepoint forcefields. All players on whitelists or not on blacklist have access to the forcefield granted by default.

You only need to keep out surprises... (WTF?)
in example
- "Thukker Tribe Shield Hardener" for shutting down all modules (setting offline) within the force field (no weapons, no cargo scanners...)
- "Intaki Syndicate Shield Hardener" for lowering down scannability of the "hidden outpost" - no invisibility but harder to locate!
- maybe further systems like that

Taking down the shield would disable the special features too. The "hardener" won't increase shields healthpoints.


All other idea to make the smuggling profession possible would be off-topic here.
I can see a need for some type of access list versus users typing in passwords, but how much of a need is the question in my mind.

Usually, an access list might be for access to a 'common' pos i.e. a pos set up solely for trading or central meetups, etc. Though, I do not see where those access lists would be necessary in order to or prior to implementation of a pos market hangar. Deciding if a new feature such as white/black access lists is up to ccp, though the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Make w-space too simple/easy to deal with and everybody would live there, which may partly why ccp has ignored the problem for this long.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#30 - 2014-09-02 17:56:25 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
This is redundant. All items a corporation might need for its members can be distributed through the ship and corp hanger arrays.

The closest you could get would them opening up wh to sov and building outposts or something there, along with mebe those cool player-built gates they keep taunting us with to link up with other wormholes.
Not precisely redundant. Similar to in highsec market window, a pos market hangar (at least I intended to present the idea this way) would essentially allow transfer of goods for payment and/or payment for goods i.e. buy & sell orders at a pos while the owner of said goods/isk is not currently online. If it were actually redundant, the ship and corp hangar arrays would allow purchases from those locations without using roles to view or remove items from those locations.

Please explain.
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