These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

ANP for shields?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Camper101
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-06-12 12:44:47 UTC
Jean deVallette wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Why would you shield or armor tank a ship that has most hitpoints in structure?


You can only add bulkheads to freighter, no DC. Using Pyfa 1.2.1

For the Providence, max EHP:
3x Coreli ANP, Slave Set, Boosted all V Armour Passive
EHP: 500k
Cargo: 544k
Aligns: 35.5s

For Charon, max EHP:
3x Bulkhead, No shield set equivalent, Boosted All V Shield Passive
EHP: 348K
Cargo: 410k
Aligns: 38.8s

Provi vs Charon (tank fit):
43% more EHP
32% more cargo
9% better align


There is not way to boost hull. The Provi above suffers none of the penalties of bulkheads, gets more EHP by a long margin over bulkheads. Its more agile, and has a lot more cargo.

I dont necessarily want homgenized freighters. Not tank for all, but make the Charon align in 25 secs with bulkheads would make it worthwhile? Thats only one possible idea, at the moment its just crap compared to the armour variants. The jump freighters reflect the same issue.

How can the devs be blind to this?


Buy a Provi then, if that's too much effort ask other people that retrained 1-5 toons for shield supers/caps and had to buy the ships as well - and train for them all over again.

Tho the point is good, make the ones that can't get really high hitpoints at least more agile or something like that. (on the other hand, it does not really matter if you have 300 or 600k EHP, if your cargo is worth more than the needed gankfleet, you are dead ;) )

2013.03.01 13:30:58 notify For participating in the General Discussion Forum Section your trustworthiness has been adjusted by -2.5000.

My name is Hans. The "L" stands for danger.
Jean deVallette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-06-12 12:50:02 UTC
Camper101 wrote:


.. my stuf ..

Buy a Provi then, if that's too much effort ask other people that retrained 1-5 toons for shield supers/caps and had to buy the ships as well - and train for them all over again.

Tho the point is good, make the ones that can't get really high hitpoints at least more agile or something like that. (on the other hand, it does not really matter if you have 300 or 600k EHP, if your cargo is worth more than the needed gankfleet, you are dead ;) )



Yes - am now training my Provi, sadly, and watching Eve Devs make the same stupid mistake over and over with armour vs shield proliferation. Only in WHs can you use any shield capitals effectively, looks like this is now the case for hauling.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-06-12 13:19:43 UTC
Jean deVallette wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Why would you shield or armor tank a ship that has most hitpoints in structure?


You can only add bulkheads to freighter, no DC. Using Pyfa 1.2.1

For the Providence, max EHP:
3x Coreli ANP, Slave Set, Boosted all V Armour Passive
EHP: 500k
Cargo: 544k
Aligns: 35.5s

For Charon, max EHP:
3x Bulkhead, No shield set equivalent, Boosted All V Shield Passive
EHP: 348K
Cargo: 410k
Aligns: 38.8s

Provi vs Charon (tank fit):
43% more EHP
32% more cargo
9% better align


There is not way to boost hull. The Provi above suffers none of the penalties of bulkheads, gets more EHP by a long margin over bulkheads. Its more agile, and has a lot more cargo.

I dont necessarily want homgenized freighters. Not tank for all, but make the Charon align in 25 secs with bulkheads would make it worthwhile? Thats only one possible idea, at the moment its just crap compared to the armour variants. The jump freighters reflect the same issue.

How can the devs be blind to this?

Please remove the slaves and then compare.
Jean deVallette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-06-12 13:28:54 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Jean deVallette wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Why would you shield or armor tank a ship that has most hitpoints in structure?


You can only add bulkheads to freighter, no DC. Using Pyfa 1.2.1

For the Providence, max EHP:
3x Coreli ANP, Slave Set, Boosted all V Armour Passive
EHP: 500k
Cargo: 544k
Aligns: 35.5s

For Charon, max EHP:
3x Bulkhead, No shield set equivalent, Boosted All V Shield Passive
EHP: 348K
Cargo: 410k
Aligns: 38.8s

Provi vs Charon (tank fit):
43% more EHP
32% more cargo
9% better align


There is not way to boost hull. The Provi above suffers none of the penalties of bulkheads, gets more EHP by a long margin over bulkheads. Its more agile, and has a lot more cargo.

I dont necessarily want homgenized freighters. Not tank for all, but make the Charon align in 25 secs with bulkheads would make it worthwhile? Thats only one possible idea, at the moment its just crap compared to the armour variants. The jump freighters reflect the same issue.

How can the devs be blind to this?

Please remove the slaves and then compare.


No Implants Provi:
377k ANP
385k Bulkhead
Cheaper implants:
455k Mid grade slaves



Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2014-06-12 13:37:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Jean deVallette wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Why would you shield or armor tank a ship that has most hitpoints in structure?


You can only add bulkheads to freighter, no DC. Using Pyfa 1.2.1

For the Providence, max EHP:
3x Coreli ANP, Slave Set, Boosted all V Armour Passive
EHP: 500k
Cargo: 544k
Aligns: 35.5s

For Charon, max EHP:
3x Bulkhead, No shield set equivalent, Boosted All V Shield Passive
EHP: 348K
Cargo: 410k
Aligns: 38.8s

Provi vs Charon (tank fit):
43% more EHP
32% more cargo
9% better align


There is not way to boost hull. The Provi above suffers none of the penalties of bulkheads, gets more EHP by a long margin over bulkheads. Its more agile, and has a lot more cargo.

I dont necessarily want homgenized freighters. Not tank for all, but make the Charon align in 25 secs with bulkheads would make it worthwhile? Thats only one possible idea, at the moment its just crap compared to the armour variants. The jump freighters reflect the same issue.

How can the devs be blind to this?

Please remove the slaves and then compare.


the issue is that u can use slaves in armor freighters.
and small stat on all l5 no implants.
charon with 3 bulkheads 272k eve ehp (lowest resist per tank group) or 303k omni ehp and 410k cargo
Providence with 3 anpII 257k eve ehp or 284 omni ehp and 544k cargo
Obelisk with 3 anp II 248264 eve ehp or 285 omni ehp and 550k cargo

the last 2 can effectively use slave set to get better stats charon cant

Jean deVallette wrote:


No Implants Provi:
377k ANP
385k Bulkhead
Cheaper implants:
455k Mid grade slaves



why do i have different pyfa stats then u
Jean deVallette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-06-12 14:05:44 UTC


the issue is that u can use slaves in armor freighters.
and small stat on all l5 no implants.
charon with 3 bulkheads 272k eve ehp (lowest resist per tank group) or 303k omni ehp and 410k cargo
Providence with 3 anpII 257k eve ehp or 284 omni ehp and 544k cargo
Obelisk with 3 anp II 248264 eve ehp or 285 omni ehp and 550k cargo

the last 2 can effectively use slave set to get better stats charon cant

Jean deVallette wrote:


No Implants Provi:
377k ANP
385k Bulkhead
Cheaper implants:
455k Mid grade slaves



why do i have different pyfa stats then u[/quote]

A nice webbing booster perhaps? Pick CS of choice.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-06-12 15:34:18 UTC
Your biggest mistake is in thinking tank matters. Gankers gonna gank. If they need a couple extra ships or less will not matter significantly.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#28 - 2014-06-12 16:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Your biggest mistake is in thinking tank matters. Gankers gonna gank. If they need a couple extra ships or less will not matter significantly.


which you think get ganked more often, Skiff or Hulk?

same idea for Freighter. as long as there are lazy afk pilot who put 3 cargo, I am sure ganker would ignore those Freighter with tank mods.

Providence get 166k EHP if go with triple Cargo expand mod. (since they are lazy, I doubt they would bother to pick up Slave implant as well)

Providence with Mid-grade Slave set, 5% Hull/armour implant and Corpii A ANP get around 426k EHP, aka more than twice of triple cargo mod EHP.

So, Ganker would have to bring about 2.6 time more ships than if they go for triple Cargo.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-06-12 16:22:00 UTC
unidenify wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Your biggest mistake is in thinking tank matters. Gankers gonna gank. If they need a couple extra ships or less will not matter significantly.


which you think get ganked more often, Skiff or Hulk?

same idea for Freighter. as long as there are lazy afk pilot who put 3 cargo, I am sure ganker would ignore those Freighter with tank mods.



Within reason. When the difference becomes do I need 15 catalysts vs 12, no they won't care so much. The point being (unlike your example) is that all of the freighters are close enough in EHP the small differences won't make that much difference if you get targetted for a gank.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#30 - 2014-06-12 16:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
Derath Ellecon wrote:
unidenify wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Your biggest mistake is in thinking tank matters. Gankers gonna gank. If they need a couple extra ships or less will not matter significantly.


which you think get ganked more often, Skiff or Hulk?

same idea for Freighter. as long as there are lazy afk pilot who put 3 cargo, I am sure ganker would ignore those Freighter with tank mods.



Within reason. When the difference becomes do I need 15 catalysts vs 12, no they won't care so much. The point being (unlike your example) is that all of the freighters are close enough in EHP the small differences won't make that much difference if you get targetted for a gank.


except as other explain, armour Freighter get benefit of EHP plus Cargo/Agility, where Shield Freighter get have to sacrifice Cargo/Agility to get EHP (even do, won't be close to what Armour will have).
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-06-12 16:32:51 UTC
unidenify wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
unidenify wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Your biggest mistake is in thinking tank matters. Gankers gonna gank. If they need a couple extra ships or less will not matter significantly.


which you think get ganked more often, Skiff or Hulk?

same idea for Freighter. as long as there are lazy afk pilot who put 3 cargo, I am sure ganker would ignore those Freighter with tank mods.



Within reason. When the difference becomes do I need 15 catalysts vs 12, no they won't care so much. The point being (unlike your example) is that all of the freighters are close enough in EHP the small differences won't make that much difference if you get targetted for a gank.


except as other explain, armour Freighter get benefit of EHP plus Cargo/Agility, where Shield Freighter get have to sacrifice Cargo/Agility to get EHP (even do, won't be close to what Armour will have).



And as I said, from being a career freighter pilot for years now, a swing at these levels of EHP won't make much difference.

One of the biggest groups ganking these days is CODE. They are basically perpetually funded, gank for fun, not profit. If they decide you are their target do you really think it will matter if 5 extra of their buddies gets to join in on the gank?
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#32 - 2014-06-12 16:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
you ignore ganker who do it for profit because there are gankers who do it for fun?

Whatever reason ganker gank you is not my issue

do I care if someone bling their ship with false illusion that it make them immortal? Not really, but I do care when there is unfair advantage to one side like this freighter tanking issue.

my issue is opinion for shield freighter is limited when compare to armour freighter since armour version can have best of 3 (EHP, Cargo, Mobility) when Shield version must sacrifice 2 of 3 to improve third.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#33 - 2014-06-12 17:40:29 UTC
I love it when people post stats with links. Cause I know I never ever fly my freighters with out a damnation and claymore following me to give me boosts. Also all ships can use slaves some just have more benefit from it then others so if you used slaves in one set of stats use it on all please.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#34 - 2014-06-12 18:51:37 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Jean deVallette wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Why would you shield or armor tank a ship that has most hitpoints in structure?


You can only add bulkheads to freighter, no DC. Using Pyfa 1.2.1

For the Providence, max EHP:
3x Coreli ANP, Slave Set, Boosted all V Armour Passive
EHP: 500k
Cargo: 544k
Aligns: 35.5s

For Charon, max EHP:
3x Bulkhead, No shield set equivalent, Boosted All V Shield Passive
EHP: 348K
Cargo: 410k
Aligns: 38.8s

Provi vs Charon (tank fit):
43% more EHP
32% more cargo
9% better align


There is not way to boost hull. The Provi above suffers none of the penalties of bulkheads, gets more EHP by a long margin over bulkheads. Its more agile, and has a lot more cargo.

I dont necessarily want homgenized freighters. Not tank for all, but make the Charon align in 25 secs with bulkheads would make it worthwhile? Thats only one possible idea, at the moment its just crap compared to the armour variants. The jump freighters reflect the same issue.

How can the devs be blind to this?

Please remove the slaves and then compare.


the issue is that u can use slaves in armor freighters.
and small stat on all l5 no implants.
charon with 3 bulkheads 272k eve ehp (lowest resist per tank group) or 303k omni ehp and 410k cargo
Providence with 3 anpII 257k eve ehp or 284 omni ehp and 544k cargo
Obelisk with 3 anp II 248264 eve ehp or 285 omni ehp and 550k cargo

the last 2 can effectively use slave set to get better stats charon cant

Jean deVallette wrote:


No Implants Provi:
377k ANP
385k Bulkhead
Cheaper implants:
455k Mid grade slaves



why do i have different pyfa stats then u

What is Provi at with 3x bulkheads? Doesn't that give more EHP than 3xANPII?
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-06-13 01:00:54 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:

What is Provi at with 3x bulkheads? Doesn't that give more EHP than 3xANPII?


with my calculation 256.5k eve ehp and 347k omni ehp and 383k cargohold
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-06-13 21:22:08 UTC
Jean deVallette wrote:
Camper101 wrote:
Why would you shield or armor tank a ship that has most hitpoints in structure?


You can only add bulkheads to freighter, no DC. Using Pyfa 1.2.1

For the Providence, max EHP:
3x Coreli ANP, Slave Set, Boosted all V Armour Passive
EHP: 500k
Cargo: 544k
Aligns: 35.5s

For Charon, max EHP:
3x Bulkhead, No shield set equivalent, Boosted All V Shield Passive
EHP: 348K
Cargo: 410k
Aligns: 38.8s

Provi vs Charon (tank fit):
43% more EHP
32% more cargo
9% better align


There is not way to boost hull. The Provi above suffers none of the penalties of bulkheads, gets more EHP by a long margin over bulkheads. Its more agile, and has a lot more cargo.

I dont necessarily want homgenized freighters. Not tank for all, but make the Charon align in 25 secs with bulkheads would make it worthwhile? Thats only one possible idea, at the moment its just crap compared to the armour variants. The jump freighters reflect the same issue.

How can the devs be blind to this?
How did you wind up with more cargo in the Providence?
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2014-06-14 17:48:45 UTC
Don't EFT warrior with Slaves. Nomad or Ascension are way better implants for a freigther.
Jazlyn
OMG PWNAGE
#38 - 2014-06-19 13:13:49 UTC
Jean deVallette wrote:
This isn't an attempt to get 'shield plating' for all, just a desire to get some balance with freighters.

The two shield freighters cannot match the armour ones for tank because ANP (deadspace especially) distorts the issue.

3x ANP is more tank, is boostable tank, and slaveable tank. It has no drawbacks for a freighter (bulkheads have penalties). but major benefits for armour oriented ones.

The is absolutely no point flying a shield tanked freigher at the moment. Significant changes, maybe to align time, or speed would be nice .. or even a simple ANPs have a cargo penalty.

Any reason why you would use a shield tanked one? AFK in any Freighter with moderate value cargo is ....



Well, they all seem to have variation, which I see as a good thing. The problem I am noticing is the tentative addition of slots to a freighter being over/under-balanced compared to most other ship schemes. While cal/min ships tend to have shield tanking slots in excess (arguably... these are also used for pvp slots due to layout) gal/ama ships offer the converse. With this weird slot issue for freighters, the balance is thrown off and CCP is indubitably watching the situation with an eagle eye.

The solution, then?

We've seen suggestions for a low-slot (freighter-only?) passive resistance shield module....

We've seen suggestions for simply tweaking armor/shield values to maintain a closer mean

We've seen talks about discrepancy with implants (namely, slave set granting passive bonus, no equivalent for shield)

We've heard an argument that shield and armor tanks should be different (a standpoint which I absolutely agree with... I hail diversity as the one facet of this game that I consistently love, including new rapid missile launchers ;)


We don't know if midslots will be introduced to freighters, but my guess is that they will not be, so unfortunately I feel that the best suggestion so far is to tweak the values to reflect a more gradual mean between the racial freighters. I absolutely like what I think CCP has been trying to do, to maintain the "balance" between speed, tank, cargo, etc with them - but there has definitely been a small gap left by the changes and at this time it may be the best solution.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#39 - 2014-06-23 10:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
The fun fact is that once you have ANPs fitted, gankers will have to take into account that you could be flying with slave implants and link, even if you don't :).
Marc Durant
#40 - 2014-06-23 12:32:35 UTC
Gank weapon of choice is blasters, Charon gets better resists against them compared to the Provi so against blasters they have just about the same EHP. Whiles slaves would help the Provi more they're not the right implants one should use, as is explained above. That leaves the only differences being speed vs cargo, which makes perfect sense.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Previous page123Next page