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[Crius] Manufacturing and general UI feedback

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babyblue
Solo Sovereignty
#41 - 2014-06-11 07:07:18 UTC  |  Edited by: babyblue
If you're the UI designer and get upset when people criticise your work, it only means you care about it, so it's all good.

Pirate

With that in mind and after playing around with the UI on SiSi a little yesterday, I'd like to offer some criticisms.

One of the principles I use when designing a UI is to try to prevent the user from performing an action I know a priori is an error. With the current UI on Tranquillity for example, I can select a blueprint to build with, choose the installation, enter the number of runs and then click Ok. Only after engaging in this clickery will I be told that I've reached the maximum number of jobs I can perform with my skill level. The situation is worse for invention of course, where decryptors and meta-items also invite the user to click. This is laziness on the part of either the designer or the developer generating the underlying model. If you haven't cached the information required to answer the question before I attempt the job, then you need to. The new UI exhibits this issue in abundance. Specifically:

(1)

I can select a blueprint on my hanger floor and bring up the industry UI for it even when I'm not in a station that has an industry facility. After faffing around with all the various options, I get an error popup when I try to start the job. It would be better to get an error before the industry UI appears. I'm torn between this and just not giving the option to perform that action on the blueprint. The former at least allows the player to understand why it's not allowed.

(2)

On the industry UI, the eye is directed towards a circular widget in the middle of the pane. It's not at all clear what the purpose of this widget is or how it works. Although to an extent it is discoverable, it simply doesn't work from a design point of view. It's quite hard to manipulate a circular widget with a mouse in any case. I would change it for a vertical slider, with scale ticks. If it needs to be a logarithmic scale, that's fine too.

(3)

With respect to (2) I think the eye should be directed towards selecting the job type. The icons at the bottom are too dull and need a glow border or something to direct the user's attention to them. Even a title would help. This is of course from the point of view of someone who encounters the UI for the first time and has bothered to try to "discover" how it works.

(4)

Again another issue with selecting parameters the software knows a priori cannot be performed. I can use the circular widget to try to submit a job that goes over the maximum allowed time, only to be told this isn't possible after I've clicked submit. The underlying model should have all the information needed to restrict and present the available choices here so I never have to see that error message again. If it doesn't, again, lazy programmer.

(5)

It's not clear to me what the purpose of the Big List of Blueprints is. It seems to generate a list containing every single blueprint in my entire inventory. Well, I've got around 1,000 originals and four times that number of copies, organised into neat categories inside small containers. In a lot of UIs a list that large is next to useless without some quite advanced accompanying search and filtering functionality. A tree structure would be better of course.

(6)

From (5) it's clear that the ability to multi-select a set of blueprints, perhaps all the same, and perform the same action on them with the same properties, would be extremely useful. Starting 10 invention jobs, for example, by selecting 10 BPC but only having to input the details once, would massively reduce the T2 building clickfest that is the current system.

Apologies if any of these things have been covered or if they're on the snagging list. I spent literally 10 minutes last night in there and these are my initial observations. More to follow I'm sure.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#42 - 2014-06-11 08:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
babyblue wrote:

(5)

It's not clear to me what the purpose of the Big List of Blueprints is. It seems to generate a list containing every single blueprint in my entire inventory. Well, I've got around 1,000 originals and four times that number of copies, organised into neat categories inside small containers. In a lot of UIs a list that large is next to useless without some quite advanced accompanying search and filtering functionality. A tree structure would be better of course.


This so much. I own a big number of BPC from Data/Relic sites which I will likely not use any time soon and thus put them in a can named "Useless". Now I see all of them in the industry window, cluttering the list and requiring me to scroll through all of them. It even goes so far that it makes the scroll stutter while the game tries to load all the data. This is unacceptable.

Instead of loading all BPC from the entire universe, the list should be empty and you should be prompted to the filter drop down menu at the first visit of the Industry window.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#43 - 2014-06-11 08:55:21 UTC
continuation from this post.

And another thing: What happens with the bids of systems who did not win the auction? Is this money sunk or returned to the respective players? If it is sunk, why should anyone bid for teams and waste money?

And yet another thing: In which wallet and where exactly do I see the money drained for the bid? My personal wallet flashes, but I don't see any money movement neither in the Journal nor in the Transactions tab.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-06-11 12:25:52 UTC
babyblue wrote:
If you're the UI designer and get upset when people criticise your work, it only means you care about it, so it's all good.

Pirate

(1)

I can select a blueprint on my hanger floor and bring up the industry UI for it even when I'm not in a station that has an industry facility. After faffing around with all the various options, I get an error popup when I try to start the job. It would be better to get an error before the industry UI appears. I'm torn between this and just not giving the option to perform that action on the blueprint. The former at least allows the player to understand why it's not allowed.

(4)

Again another issue with selecting parameters the software knows a priori cannot be performed. I can use the circular widget to try to submit a job that goes over the maximum allowed time, only to be told this isn't possible after I've clicked submit. The underlying model should have all the information needed to restrict and present the available choices here so I never have to see that error message again. If it doesn't, again, lazy programmer.

(5)

It's not clear to me what the purpose of the Big List of Blueprints is. It seems to generate a list containing every single blueprint in my entire inventory. Well, I've got around 1,000 originals and four times that number of copies, organised into neat categories inside small containers. In a lot of UIs a list that large is next to useless without some quite advanced accompanying search and filtering functionality. A tree structure would be better of course.

(6)

From (5) it's clear that the ability to multi-select a set of blueprints, perhaps all the same, and perform the same action on them with the same properties, would be extremely useful. Starting 10 invention jobs, for example, by selecting 10 BPC but only having to input the details once, would massively reduce the T2 building clickfest that is the current system.

Apologies if any of these things have been covered or if they're on the snagging list. I spent literally 10 minutes last night in there and these are my initial observations. More to follow I'm sure.


(1)

For this, I think its important that users be able to see what the numbers would be for a blueprint activity even if the facility isn't there. I think it should be clearer immediately what activities are supported, though, once you're in the UI. I do get your point, though.

(4)

Probably not lazy, just it was a lower priority than the other items on the list.

(5)

I agree with the need to organize and disagree with the benefits of a tree view. Other forms of filtering are going to be more critical here as is the ability to reduce the total number of objects you're having to deal with. The change to BPC invention mechanics should help here.

(6)

Multi-select would increase the complexity of this screen quite a bit, probably be computationally expensive and potentially quite confusing to the user. I also think it would be better to wait until after the invention and reverse engineering mechanics switch up to see how it changes. Also I shudder to think about doing multi-select across different input or output locations. From my perspective the solution they came up with for speeding up invention by remembering the last thing you did is better than multi-select.
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#45 - 2014-06-11 12:26:49 UTC
I only had a little time to mess with things, but here are my initial thoughts.

Damn that window is huge. I play on a laptop and it eats up a lot of real estate.

No way to filter copies vs originals. Boo.

Like I can select POS labs.

Teams confused me. Is the solar system listed where they are? How do they come to my system?


Other question :
If you're manufacturing in a POS on TQ, where does the BPO go when mirrored on SISI? I can't find some of my BPOs.
Rust Connor
Industrias PapaCapim
#46 - 2014-06-11 12:33:56 UTC
Amazing interface. I'll list problems i found after reading the whole thread.

Suggestion: now that ME is calculate for the whole batch, couldnt you put the materials unita with and without rounding so we can quickly play with run numbers?
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#47 - 2014-06-11 12:38:59 UTC
Not sure where this goes….

I can't see anywhere how to set tax on production lines in station…

I can't see production lines at all, I mean, I can produce something, but I can't see how many jobs, i can't restrict jobs…

Basically, other than ptting jobs into build, i can't interface with the production lines of the outpost at all
Takumi Kishunuba
Ulrich Cadalene Corp
#48 - 2014-06-11 12:55:56 UTC
Would it be possible to get the invention preview UI to display the number of runs as the resulting bpc as well as the me/pe levels? That will probably be one of the main reasons for decryptors now.
babyblue
Solo Sovereignty
#49 - 2014-06-11 13:26:06 UTC
Quintessen wrote:

(1)

For this, I think its important that users be able to see what the numbers would be for a blueprint activity even if the facility isn't there. I think it should be clearer immediately what activities are supported, though, once you're in the UI. I do get your point, though.


I thought about this and consider the "what if" scenario to be a different thing to actually building it. It's the kind of thing that's taken care of at the moment with out of game tools, such as those Steve Fuzzworks has produced. As far as I'm concerned that's fine. If you want to "what if" something then tell the UI you're "what iffing" it. Just leaving everything totally open with no constraints increases the click-stress. Eve is already horrendously clicky and this has been a forum whining issue since 2003.

Quintessen wrote:

Probably not lazy, just it was a lower priority than the other items on the list.


I hope I took care of that with my disclaimer at the bottom. Lol

Quintessen wrote:

I agree with the need to organize and disagree with the benefits of a tree view. Other forms of filtering are going to be more critical here as is the ability to reduce the total number of objects you're having to deal with. The change to BPC invention mechanics should help here.


It doesn't have to be a tree view of course. Just something other than a massive list containing thousands of entries which is completely useless to any serious industrialist.

Quintessen wrote:

Multi-select would increase the complexity of this screen quite a bit, probably be computationally expensive and potentially quite confusing to the user. I also think it would be better to wait until after the invention and reverse engineering mechanics switch up to see how it changes. Also I shudder to think about doing multi-select across different input or output locations. From my perspective the solution they came up with for speeding up invention by remembering the last thing you did is better than multi-select.


It's actually not all that hard to implement. If I select 10 blueprints and want to do ME research on all 10, up to level 5, the system can auto-fill 10 available slots. If there aren't 10 available slots then it'll tell me. I'll make it easier for the developer: Only do it if all of the blueprints have identical properties. I'm not sure what they're going to do for invention so I'll hold fire on this. All I know is when I'm putting a build on of T2 items, usually a 1,000 module run, running 3 characters with 10 slots each, I have to go through the same sequence of clicks THIRTY TIMES for each run of 300, and do that 3 times to get to 1000. Yes that's something I forgot to add: Remember the previous values. That would reduce clicks by one order of magnitude.

But that gives me a new idea: If you have two or more identical blueprint copies, the ability to merge them into a single copy should be considered. So for example, 2 x 10 run -4 (old stats) Suitcase II blueprints can become 1 x 20 run -4 Suitcase II blueprint.
Qoi
Exert Force
#50 - 2014-06-11 13:29:12 UTC
A single big list of blueprints is pretty useless for anyone having serious amounts of blueprints. It only works for people with a few dozen blueprints, which doesn't include most industrialists.

The icons for Manufacturing, ME Research and TE Research are virtually indistinguishable on the jobs tab until you get out your magnifying glass. Please let them have distinct shapes!

Also why do the Industry and the Reprocessing icon have the same shape? This is just unprofessional.

http://eve-industry.org
CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp
#51 - 2014-06-11 13:50:49 UTC
Question for people who find the blueprint list too inclusive (large as a result), are the filters at the top insufficient? We are exploring ways of filtering down to BPCs vs BPOs, but currently you could filter down to blueprints within a specific container or location quite easily.

Also on a more general note since people are bringing it up, one of the things that should come within the next round of updates is what we are dubbing a visualization mode, which will be indicated much more clearly than it currently is.

The idea is that any element that is just for visualization of a "what if" scenario will be red on the UI and can be reset. For example for:

Quote:
Quintessen wrote:

(1)

I can select a blueprint on my hanger floor and bring up the industry UI for it even when I'm not in a station that has an industry facility. After faffing around with all the various options, I get an error popup when I try to start the job. It would be better to get an error before the industry UI appears. I'm torn between this and just not giving the option to perform that action on the blueprint. The former at least allows the player to understand why it's not allowed.

Feel free to poke me on: Twitter
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#52 - 2014-06-11 13:55:56 UTC
I am also playing with the new industry interface and am loving it.

Two things off the bat:

1) Please allow a drag/drop action so I can place BPs in my hangar directly into the industry window.
When you complete an action or just open the window with nothing selected, you get a very enticing square graphic with nice little inviting blue running lights.

It is practically BEGGING for you to drag and drop a BP into it. Was very sad not to be able to. It seemed like such a natural action, I tired it again a few times in the hope it was just buggy.

2) Industrial sounds based on action. I heard some, but it needs to be taken up a notch.

Other than that, looks awesome! Great work so far guys.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#53 - 2014-06-11 13:58:58 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:


Also on a more general note since people are bringing it up, one of the things that should come within the next round of updates is what we are dubbing a visualization mode, which will be indicated much more clearly than it currently is.

The idea is that any element that is just for visualization of a "what if" scenario will be red on the UI and can be reset.


The 'Visualization Mode' will allow us to change the installation, then?
CCP RubberBAND
CCP Engineering Corp
#54 - 2014-06-11 14:01:33 UTC
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:


Also on a more general note since people are bringing it up, one of the things that should come within the next round of updates is what we are dubbing a visualization mode, which will be indicated much more clearly than it currently is.

The idea is that any element that is just for visualization of a "what if" scenario will be red on the UI and can be reset.


The 'Visualization Mode' will allow us to change the installation, then?


Yes. Current plan is, Facility, Blueprint, Teams, ME and TE.


Feel free to poke me on: Twitter
Chris Thiesere
IonTek LLC
#55 - 2014-06-11 14:09:45 UTC
Is there a possibility to select a separate input source for each input type (items/minerals/etc)?
Noriko Mai
#56 - 2014-06-11 14:18:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Mai
The Confirm Tooltip for stoping manufacturing jobs is a bit inconvenient.
"Canceling a job will not result in input materials being refunded nor job cost being refunded."
Just say: "Materials will be lost and job cost will be retained!"

Edit: And please change the order in the right-click menu on the required items to "Show Info" | "View Market Details" and then "Buy Item". This is the order in every other right-click menu.

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Noriko Mai
#57 - 2014-06-11 14:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Mai
AAAHH. FORUMS!!

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#58 - 2014-06-11 14:22:16 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Question for people who find the blueprint list too inclusive (large as a result), are the filters at the top insufficient? We are exploring ways of filtering down to BPCs vs BPOs, but currently you could filter down to blueprints within a specific container or location quite easily.

Also on a more general note since people are bringing it up, one of the things that should come within the next round of updates is what we are dubbing a visualization mode, which will be indicated much more clearly than it currently is.

The idea is that any element that is just for visualization of a "what if" scenario will be red on the UI and can be reset. For example for:


The filters are no problem and good as they are. What is problematic in my opinion is the massive list upon first opening the Industry window. I don't see any use of the current list. You can only show so many BPC/O before you need to scroll and chances are high that the BPC/O I am looking for is not among the initial 10-15 entries. Instead, the massive list causes delay and stuttering when you scroll. Instead of the list, you should show a hint (similar to other windows where you have to select some option before you see actual content) to select a BPC/O location to view these.
Fortunately, the Industry window remembers which can/hangar you selected last and shows only BPC/O from this one upon opening the window again, so this long list is only a one-time occurrence (unless you actively set the filter to all entries or when patches mess up the game).

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2014-06-11 14:33:51 UTC
The 'Job Duration' indication seems a little weird. From what I can see it's currently counting in

DAYS : HOURS : MINUTES : SECONDS or 113:08:06:48.

Which is really weird to be looking at. Could this be tweaked to read a little clearer, like this:

Job Duration:
113 days + 08:06:48

Or something like that.

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Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#60 - 2014-06-11 14:34:21 UTC
cia informant wrote:
Are these numbers right? http://puu.sh/9o28p/7b8635a83f.jpg

If so I am really sad that a major part of my isk making would be practically killed with the run time being quadrupled. I can't imagine with all the changes that the margin is suddenly going to quadruple as well.


I didn't need to read any further. I also found this exact same issue. Those build quantities are wrong no matter how you do the math. I found this issue all over the place. Wonky and obviously incorrect material requirements are everywhere.

400 isotopes is perfect. 151 LO and HW are not. 9 Coolant is not. Everything else is. This is mathematically impossible if all quantities were modified by the same factor. The way rounding works the largest quantity in the list of materials should be the last to express any wastage.

Currently an ME 15 fuel block blueprint will have all perfect materials except for 1 additional unit of isotopes. This BP converts over to a perfect ME10% BPO. So why am I showing more waste than before on the smaller stacks, and perfect on the largest one?

BP materials quantities need an overall investigation. Almost every BP has incorrect quantities and inconsistent base material conversions. I could forgive if it were simply rounding issues at low quantities. But with large stacks this shouldn't be happening to the tune of 2-3% of base.


Teams:
WRT the teams, I find that the cost modifier being expressed exactly the same as the ME and TE modifiers (integer percentage) to be very confusing. +6% for the team to get a 2% efficiency increase is not intuitive. It makes it look like I'm paying 6% to get 2%, which would make no sense at all.

I know it actually means an additional 6% only on the system index cost (or something to that effect) because I read the devblog. But budding/new player industrialists won't know that and will likely just shake their head and go "wtf is this obviously broken content? Someone's an idiot." and never use teams.

A tooltip or something to clarify would help greatly in this case. (If there already is one, I don't know how I missed it.)


UI
Activity icon order needs a little tweak imo. ME and TE should be swapped. Up until now ME has always been listed before TE. But on the interface TE research comes before ME. Please swap those two around for consistency. It will avoid confusion.

Show info on BPs needs a little love. Finding the relevant info for research is an eye-bending spreadsheet data "Where's Waldo" exercise. Can we put in some sort of horizontal ruling to better separate ME/TE/Invention/etc sections? Big bold section headings or something plainly and visibly different would be awesome. Thx.

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