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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#641 - 2011-12-05 13:24:06 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Onictus wrote:

Dramiel is pirate faction, not matar....and regardless of what the RPers say in this thread matar and amarr and pretty well balanced against each other overall.


Your claim is contradicted by CCP's data. Ships that use projectile weapons dominate in final blow charts. Also, Angel ships are effectively minmatar ships: they use the same weapons, have the same slot layouts and the typical speed, agility, sig radius values etc. Balance discussion isn't about labels, but about concrete measures. Angel ships are minmatar in anything but their label.


Quote:
Yes the Cane is better than a Harbi (barely)


Once again, CCP's own data disagrees. The Cane is far better than the Harbi, and the Drake is somewhat better than the Cane. See the following top 5 final blows chart:

Quote:
Battlecruiser:
Drake 732,236
Hurricane 629,933
Harbinger 236,607
Myrmidon 116,046
Brutix 85,931


Quote:
How many armor canes have you seen lately


Why armor tank and gimp your own speed when you can shield tank instead? Armor mods and rigs need to have their speed penalties removed (replaced by sig radius penalty), then the ships relying on them can finally start competing with shield tankers. Speed makes all the difference.



Yeah armor tank a cane gimgp speed for DOUBLE the tank, Why? It WAS the fastest battlecruiser..not the fastest Tier 2 the fastest overall until last week. Either way, armor Hurricanes are fun as hell to fly.


Killing blows likely also correlates with employment and rate of fire...out of the top two BCs one has a 12 second cycle with HML and the other something like two and a half, so there it gets 4 : 1 odds of landing a killing blow. Note the Myrmidon and Brutix combined don't equal 1/7 of the battlecruisers used.

Gee so you are arguing to nerf an entire race over ONE ship class, and what you are trying to nerf IS NOT THE BEST by your own data set.

Great argument there.

Canes are favored for GTFO, Drakes for their tank.....and I'd wager that 1/2 of those Drakes are nano drakes that sacrifice damage for speed since damn near anything that can catch them (like a shield cane) they destroy and everything else they run from.
whoyoulookingat
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#642 - 2011-12-05 14:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: whoyoulookingat
What an amusing thread.. Minmatar must be nerfed, yada, yada, yada. The Killboards don't lie, ect.

Actually, Killboards only tell you what "most" people are currently flying to kill with or die in & what weapons they prefer using over others.
It DOESN'T actually tell you whether anything is under or over powered.

Why are Minmatar so popular? Look no further than Yourselves.

I suspect (in fact have seen it) that the reason why people fly certain ships & use certain weapons is down to the old "Follow the Masses" route.

Player A tells Player B that Ship 1 is no good and should use Ship 2. Player B then tells players C~Z. Next thing you know, everyone is flying the same ship with near on identical fits.

So masses start to cross train for the new flavour ships that are "a must" just because of what a few people have stated.

Other similar ships are then deemed as "Cr*p" as no-one gets any proper experience flying them.

Fleet setups become predictable, same ships are always used, people start to assume that certain ships are overpowered.

See where this is heading?

Pretty much 99% of Ships & Fits can be countered if you know what you're doing. That's what makes this game fun. You may think you know what fit your victim may have fitted but the more that break the mould & start to think "out of the box", you'll suddenly realise that Minny Ships aren't that great & can be popped with ease (or watch em run with their tails between their legs!)

Same goes for the other Races. Know how to counter a fit & It'll either die, GFTO or you can GTFO when it all goes wrong. This applies to either solo fun or S/M/L Fleet fights (where you have the added bonus of a scout to let you know if your group can counter or not).

Peace out Forum Clickers Cool
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#643 - 2011-12-05 15:31:00 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=postmessage&t=40902&f=247&q=453895

Final blows, weapon type, 2011 only, PVP only:

Group:
Projectile Weapon 1,455,484
Energy Weapon 392,605
Hybrid Weapon 250,858
Combat Drone 221,329
Heavy Missile 203,896

Type:
425mm AutoCannon II 388,602
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II 207,378
200mm AutoCannon II 163,613
150mm Light AutoCannon II 144,349
720mm Howitzer Artillery II 136,879

By ship type scoring the final blow:
Hurricane 378,864
Drake 272,204
Sabre 124,472
Dramiel 118,128
Vagabond 117,136
Cynabal 113,905
Abaddon 80,659
Tengu 79,493
Harbinger 71,286
Rifter 67,721




Gee golly I wonder what this little piece of data can show us? I remember back when Whinematar wasn't an Easy mode race to fly. You really had to have your **** together and you trained into multiple weapons platforms to make them effective. Now it's slap a rack of auto cannons on, an MWD, a couple nano's tracking enhancers and face roll across the keyboard and think your some god of pvp.

The reason I really hate flying Minny is there's no challenge! It's the same bullshit kite fest over and over and over! Same goes for the Drake, and sadly Caldari have been left in the dust for years almost as bad as Gallente when it comes to effective platforms that deliver.

See I've always always flown Blaster boats and always will. Why? Because I love committing to a fight. I love being the one guy with the balls to actually get in there and knock someones teeth out. People are too scared these days! Don't believe me?

Look over in the Dev thread on fixing hybrids and see some of the whacky "solutions" these spineless kids will scream at you for. One even said he wants blasters to be JUST like auto cannons simply because he doesn't want to commit to a fight.


Point being, is people have abused the sweet spot Minny have had for quite some time and I really doubt CCP has the spine to bring them down in line to where they need to be. No they don't need to be gimped to ****, I would just love to see Minny brought back to how it used to be flown.

A very select few of skilled pilots who know what the **** their doing instead of this hit the orbit button and drool that is now eve online : blob edition.

And if you really want my opinion on "fixing" Gallente and Caldari hybrid hulls, just give the damn ships a web range bonus. Very slight, yet something to where they have a chance of catching their target.

Funny how I brought this suggestion up and was shouted down because "it would be too OP hurr durr durr" yet, the same people want blasters hitting out to 30km with VOID. I rest my case..
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#644 - 2011-12-05 15:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
The KB tells you what ships are flying - yes. But the ships people fly DOES tell you which ones are good. People arent stupid. The community, over time, will gravitate to what is good. Its a fact. People will fly what is going to give them the best chance. Argue them how ever much you want, but the KB stats are the only hard evidence we have - they dont lie.

I am suprised about the Brutix being so high on the killing blow list. I knew there was a lot of high-sec ganking, but I didnt know there was that much. ;)

EDIT: This was in response to the post 2 above me, but the post right above me proves the point.
Shazih Omanid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#645 - 2011-12-05 15:49:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Shazih Omanid
Does anyone have a loss count for those ships mentioned?

Ya the drake and hurricane has highest killcounts, but they probably also have alot higher loss count because they are simply more used? I would be interested in seeing a kill/loss ratio between these ships if possible-.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#646 - 2011-12-05 15:53:33 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
The KB tells you what ships are flying - yes. But the ships people fly DOES tell you which ones are good. People arent stupid. The community, over time, will gravitate to what is good. Its a fact. People will fly what is going to give them the best chance. Argue them how ever much you want, but the KB stats are the only hard evidence we have - they dont lie.

I am suprised about the Brutix being so high on the killing blow list. I knew there was a lot of high-sec ganking, but I didnt know there was that much. ;)

EDIT: This was in response to the post 2 above me, but the post right above me proves the point.


You really don't get it do you? It's clearly shows NOT what ships are "good" it shows exactly the evidence people have been ranting and raving about for weeks before Crucible. Which is, that it has come down to nothing more than a giant kite fest in combat.

The Hurricane and Drake are so one dimensional and such a bore to fly..... The "community" (derp) isn't EVERYONE
. instead it becomes well what is most popular? Or well **** I can't fly the ship I want to fly because my FC wants us in "this" ship I've flown so many times it hurts...

There is no skill involved! Gone are the days when you gawked at the inventiveness and the finesse of a few good pilots using Minny the way they were MEANT to be flown. Not this fotm "community" excuse bullshit you see today.

It shouldn't be where the low skilled and to put it flatly, mediocre hop in a ship especially a Minny ship and get the results they do today. If you were to hop in a Minny ship like half the pilots do back in 2005, you'd be the laughing stalk of Eve.

Now it's not only accepted, but encouraged to exploit the imbalance, the EZ mode that is now Minny simply because it's what popular? People rant and rave above how good the Tempest or the Hurricane is. Yet why don't we see people flying Typhoon's?

Probably because the Phoon is the LAST Minny ship that still embodies exactly what Minmatar should and always have been! A very specialized, specific class of ships that can be the swiss army knife of Eve, and yet be the most rewarding and difficult to fly...
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#647 - 2011-12-05 16:03:48 UTC
Tara Read wrote:


You really don't get it do you? It's clearly shows NOT what ships are "good" it shows exactly the evidence people have been ranting and raving about for weeks before Crucible. Which is, that it has come down to nothing more than a giant kite fest in combat.

The Hurricane and Drake are so one dimensional and such a bore to fly..... The "community" (derp) isn't EVERYONE
. instead it becomes well what is most popular? Or well **** I can't fly the ship I want to fly because my FC wants us in "this" ship I've flown so many times it hurts...

There is no skill involved! Gone are the days when you gawked at the inventiveness and the finesse of a few good pilots using Minny the way they were MEANT to be flown. Not this fotm "community" excuse bullshit you see today.

It shouldn't be where the low skilled and to put it flatly, mediocre hop in a ship especially a Minny ship and get the results they do today. If you were to hop in a Minny ship like half the pilots do back in 2005, you'd be the laughing stalk of Eve.

Now it's not only accepted, but encouraged to exploit the imbalance, the EZ mode that is now Minny simply because it's what popular? People rant and rave above how good the Tempest or the Hurricane is. Yet why don't we see people flying Typhoon's?

Probably because the Phoon is the LAST Minny ship that still embodies exactly what Minmatar should and always have been! A very specialized, specific class of ships that can be the swiss army knife of Eve, and yet be the most rewarding and difficult to fly...


+1. So much this.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#648 - 2011-12-05 16:06:18 UTC
I fly typhoons...everyone runs from them
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#649 - 2011-12-05 16:08:50 UTC
Onictus wrote:
I fly typhoons...everyone runs from them




The Faction Typhoon is probably one of the most underrated yet deadly ships out there. And it's CHEAP Twisted
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#650 - 2011-12-05 16:11:31 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
The KB tells you what ships are flying - yes. But the ships people fly DOES tell you which ones are good. People arent stupid. The community, over time, will gravitate to what is good. Its a fact. People will fly what is going to give them the best chance. Argue them how ever much you want, but the KB stats are the only hard evidence we have - they dont lie.

I am suprised about the Brutix being so high on the killing blow list. I knew there was a lot of high-sec ganking, but I didnt know there was that much. ;)

EDIT: This was in response to the post 2 above me, but the post right above me proves the point.


You really don't get it do you? It's clearly shows NOT what ships are "good" it shows exactly the evidence people have been ranting and raving about for weeks before Crucible. Which is, that it has come down to nothing more than a giant kite fest in combat.

The Hurricane and Drake are so one dimensional and such a bore to fly..... The "community" (derp) isn't EVERYONE
. instead it becomes well what is most popular? Or well **** I can't fly the ship I want to fly because my FC wants us in "this" ship I've flown so many times it hurts...

There is no skill involved! Gone are the days when you gawked at the inventiveness and the finesse of a few good pilots using Minny the way they were MEANT to be flown. Not this fotm "community" excuse bullshit you see today.

It shouldn't be where the low skilled and to put it flatly, mediocre hop in a ship especially a Minny ship and get the results they do today. If you were to hop in a Minny ship like half the pilots do back in 2005, you'd be the laughing stalk of Eve.

Now it's not only accepted, but encouraged to exploit the imbalance, the EZ mode that is now Minny simply because it's what popular? People rant and rave above how good the Tempest or the Hurricane is. Yet why don't we see people flying Typhoon's?

Probably because the Phoon is the LAST Minny ship that still embodies exactly what Minmatar should and always have been! A very specialized, specific class of ships that can be the swiss army knife of Eve, and yet be the most rewarding and difficult to fly...


You do realize my post (and previous ones) supported yours, right? ;)
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#651 - 2011-12-05 16:19:27 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
The KB tells you what ships are flying - yes. But the ships people fly DOES tell you which ones are good. People arent stupid. The community, over time, will gravitate to what is good. Its a fact. People will fly what is going to give them the best chance. Argue them how ever much you want, but the KB stats are the only hard evidence we have - they dont lie.

I am suprised about the Brutix being so high on the killing blow list. I knew there was a lot of high-sec ganking, but I didnt know there was that much. ;)

EDIT: This was in response to the post 2 above me, but the post right above me proves the point.


You really don't get it do you? It's clearly shows NOT what ships are "good" it shows exactly the evidence people have been ranting and raving about for weeks before Crucible. Which is, that it has come down to nothing more than a giant kite fest in combat.

The Hurricane and Drake are so one dimensional and such a bore to fly..... The "community" (derp) isn't EVERYONE
. instead it becomes well what is most popular? Or well **** I can't fly the ship I want to fly because my FC wants us in "this" ship I've flown so many times it hurts...

There is no skill involved! Gone are the days when you gawked at the inventiveness and the finesse of a few good pilots using Minny the way they were MEANT to be flown. Not this fotm "community" excuse bullshit you see today.

It shouldn't be where the low skilled and to put it flatly, mediocre hop in a ship especially a Minny ship and get the results they do today. If you were to hop in a Minny ship like half the pilots do back in 2005, you'd be the laughing stalk of Eve.

Now it's not only accepted, but encouraged to exploit the imbalance, the EZ mode that is now Minny simply because it's what popular? People rant and rave above how good the Tempest or the Hurricane is. Yet why don't we see people flying Typhoon's?

Probably because the Phoon is the LAST Minny ship that still embodies exactly what Minmatar should and always have been! A very specialized, specific class of ships that can be the swiss army knife of Eve, and yet be the most rewarding and difficult to fly...


You do realize my post (and previous ones) supported yours, right? ;)


I do now. Huzzah.
Vrykolakasis
Sparrowhawks Corp
#652 - 2011-12-05 16:26:20 UTC
I had a long response but I'll simplify it to this:

AC have great ROF and Arties have great alpha, as such they get final strikes a lot. They don't necessarily do more damage than anything else - read more of the stats page to see that.

Fly a Maelstrom in PvP and you'll win a lot of fights. Fly a Typhoon PROPERLY and you'll win a lot of fights. Fly a Tempest and you'll win some fights. Alternatively, fly a Raven and you'll win a lot of fights. Fly a Scorpion PROPERLY and you'll win a lot of fights - although that's a niche role where you should have some skills in ewar. Fly a Rokh... and you might get some frigate killmails, but that's pre-crucible, you might do OK now.

For Amarr, if you fly the ship properly you are likely to win a lot of fights - that goes for all battleships and most of everything else. For Gallente... you should probably see how crucible has done. The main issue is not that Minmatar was OP it's that Gallente/hybrids were UP, there aren't many Amarr pilots, and Caldari pilots shoot missiles and therefore don't get many final blows - and if you've ever flown fleet warfare you'll see exactly why missiles have so few final blows.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#653 - 2011-12-05 16:31:23 UTC
Yep long gone are the days when matar required skill to fly , now it is just dumbproof.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#654 - 2011-12-05 16:41:18 UTC
Vrykolakasis wrote:
I had a long response but I'll simplify it to this:

AC have great ROF and Arties have great alpha, as such they get final strikes a lot. They don't necessarily do more damage than anything else - read more of the stats page to see that.

Fly a Maelstrom in PvP and you'll win a lot of fights. Fly a Typhoon PROPERLY and you'll win a lot of fights. Fly a Tempest and you'll win some fights. Alternatively, fly a Raven and you'll win a lot of fights. Fly a Scorpion PROPERLY and you'll win a lot of fights - although that's a niche role where you should have some skills in ewar. Fly a Rokh... and you might get some frigate killmails, but that's pre-crucible, you might do OK now.

For Amarr, if you fly the ship properly you are likely to win a lot of fights - that goes for all battleships and most of everything else. For Gallente... you should probably see how crucible has done. The main issue is not that Minmatar was OP it's that Gallente/hybrids were UP, there aren't many Amarr pilots, and Caldari pilots shoot missiles and therefore don't get many final blows - and if you've ever flown fleet warfare you'll see exactly why missiles have so few final blows.

omg

Rof and alpha is completly the opposite , saying that both favours final strikes is false. Go consult your math teacher.
Fly raven in pvp ... omg thats where failing starts. Rokh and frigate killmails ...

The main issue is still that matar is way too good in way too many situations-->OP
Kingwood
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#655 - 2011-12-05 16:46:28 UTC
This thread is getting dumber every passing day.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#656 - 2011-12-05 16:51:32 UTC
Kingwood wrote:
This thread is getting dumber every passing day.


Just like you slave jockey's. FACE
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#657 - 2011-12-05 16:52:36 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Yep long gone are the days when matar required skill to fly , now it is just dumbproof.


+1 for Truth. SPEAK IT REVEREND!!!!
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#658 - 2011-12-05 17:25:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Quote:
The main issue is still that matar is way too good in way too many situations


What exactly creates the overpoweredness?

1) Tracking Enhancers / Computers: falloff bonus is too high. AC ships can stay far out of web and neut range while still doing significant damage. These modules are effectively a second type of damage increasing module for ships that will be fighting in falloff.

2) High tracking + high falloff is a very serious threat for ships that are smaller and FASTER. To counter a skirmish ship, you would normally use a smaller and faster ship to pin it down - however autocannons are also great at killing that exact type of ship.

3) In addition to the above, almost every Minmatar ship has spare high slots for neutralizers and ample cpu and grid as well as enough cap to use them. This further helps them to break tanks, control range and kill tacklers without any significant drawbacks.

4) The trademark speed agility works a bit too well with high falloff. It's only both together that are problematic.

5) Shield tanking mods and rigs don't slow them down. The choice durable or fast doesn't have to be made.

6) Freebies like selectable damage types, Hail being plain better than other close range ammo, and surprisingly good damage/ehp ratios for skirmisher ships are unnecessary but exist anyway.


To sum it up in one sentence, autocannon ships are overpowered because they are damn hard to counter. They can deal with almost anything and don't have to take the same risks as other ships do (or suffer from the same drawbacks). They need to have a specific weakness that can be exploited. How that is done is up to CCP.
Maroxus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#659 - 2011-12-05 19:05:19 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

Why armor tank and gimp your own speed when you can shield tank instead? Armor mods and rigs need to have their speed penalties removed (replaced by sig radius penalty), then the ships relying on them can finally start competing with shield tankers. Speed makes all the difference.


If they remove the speed penalty, then add an x-large shield extender because 1600s > LSE in HP gains.

The Abbadon can easily get a bigger EHP over the Rokh. Another nail in the coffin for the Rokh.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#660 - 2011-12-05 19:18:00 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Quote:
The main issue is still that matar is way too good in way too many situations


What exactly creates the overpoweredness?

1) Tracking Enhancers / Computers: falloff bonus is too high. AC ships can stay far out of web and neut range while still doing significant damage. These modules are effectively a second type of damage increasing module for ships that will be fighting in falloff.

2) High tracking + high falloff is a very serious threat for ships that are smaller and FASTER. To counter a skirmish ship, you would normally use a smaller and faster ship to pin it down - however autocannons are also great at killing that exact type of ship.

3) In addition to the above, almost every Minmatar ship has spare high slots for neutralizers and ample cpu and grid as well as enough cap to use them. This further helps them to break tanks, control range and kill tacklers without any significant drawbacks.

4) The trademark speed agility works a bit too well with high falloff. It's only both together that are problematic.

5) Shield tanking mods and rigs don't slow them down. The choice durable or fast doesn't have to be made.

6) Freebies like selectable damage types, Hail being plain better than other close range ammo, and surprisingly good damage/ehp ratios for skirmisher ships are unnecessary but exist anyway.


To sum it up in one sentence, autocannon ships are overpowered because they are damn hard to counter. They can deal with almost anything and don't have to take the same risks as other ships do (or suffer from the same drawbacks). They need to have a specific weakness that can be exploited. How that is done is up to CCP.



Christ

Confirming Amarr fanbois are too scared to step up to hell cats and to ******* stupid to WARP AWAY.

I thought this **** was PvP 101 if you don't outrun it out gun it.