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Cloak mechanics need an overhaul

First post
Author
Burrick V'ar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-06-10 18:04:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Burrick V'ar
You know what? Never mind. The flaming is strong with these ones.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#2 - 2014-06-10 18:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
First!


I see your points but you know you are poking a hornets nest, don't you?


I would leave cloaking "alone" in such a manner that nobody gets an instant defeat cloak and gank measure.

The only 2 changes I would make:


1. If the client has no activity for a given time, the player is logged off (as one who has tried to play after a long weekend of outdoor work, and fallen asleep at the keyboard, this would be a good thing).
2. Allow special probes to "see" but NOT get a warpable hit on a cloaked ship. It should always be impossible to get a warp hit on a cloaked ship. But it would be nice to know if a cloaked ship is on the move or if within the D-scan range. Frankly I think that having a general idea of where it is makes things more interesting and also makes lurking more fun for the cloaker too as cloaking in a system to "bother" people can be quite boring but the "victims" of cloaking activity would be rather unnerved if they saw the cloaker "moving".

Look at it this way: SCUBA divers KNOW there are sharks below the water at the beach. People know sharks are in the ocean. Ever fly over a beach in a helicopter and see all the sharks amongst the people in the water (I have, from a CH-47 "shithook" in Italy). Every time I see aerial pics of that I know that if the people in the water could see what I was seeing their beach outing would have a bit more.... "edge" to it. Twisted

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

darmwand
Repo.
#3 - 2014-06-10 18:11:05 UTC
This is going to be painful to read. Again.

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."

Dave Stark
#4 - 2014-06-10 18:14:47 UTC
if you want to stop playing because you have a visitor... that has nothing to do with cloak mechanics.
Josef Djugashvilis
#5 - 2014-06-10 18:16:00 UTC
All you have to do is to get up close and hug me to death.

This is not a signature.

Brendan Anneto
Gladiators of Rage
HERO Coalition.
#6 - 2014-06-10 18:16:39 UTC
tl;dr and IB4L

I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes, When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you.   Proverbs 1:26-27

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-06-10 18:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Seems like a decent suggestion, actually.

Why not let me detect cloaked ships using the narrowest (and only the narrowest) dscan angle? You could even require that I'd need to scan 2 or 3 times to pick something up and that it's unreliable (only appears sometimes on dscan).

Edit: Probably relevant that Hunt for Red October was the first action movie I saw as a kid.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Marsha Mallow
#8 - 2014-06-10 18:18:42 UTC
Just eve-search: afk cloaking / cloak / exploit
Read a few and you'll see why these discussions are redundant, repetitive flame fests. Even though some good countermeasures/mechanic changes have been proposed.

2013 list & commonly proposed ideas - CCP appear to be aware of the complaints over this.

It's clear how much this annoys you. Unfortunately by expressing it on GD, you just invited every tear drinking AFK cloaker to your space. I'm not sure your alliance will be pleased, but at least they'll know who to blame ;)

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-06-10 18:19:00 UTC
Did you know that in the history of EVE not a single ship has been lost to an AFK cloaker?

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Prince Kobol
#10 - 2014-06-10 18:20:26 UTC
Burrick V'ar wrote:
It is currently possible to basically shut down activity in a none-empire system by just cloaking up a scanning ship in the middle of nowhere and then going afk. By just coming back once in a while to scan down what is in system and hot drop it if you find something worth the effort, you're either shutting down an entire system or forcing other players to be 100% vigilant (which is no bad thing), but you're putting basically no effort in at your end. That's not interesting, and it's not fun. But, in case you disagree, let's look at the fluff.

Cloaky ships are supposed to be the space boat equivalent of submarines, right? Well submarines aren't invisible. A skilled sonar operator can find a sub given time and means. It should be the same way with cloaks. Utter undetectability makes the game unengaging and uninteresting. If cloaks made ships invisible on-grid and disappear from overview, but only reduced their sig radius significantly for combat scanning purposes, it would stop this dull stalemate from happening. Perhaps some kind of sliding scale should be introduced whereby cloaking skills, module tiers, and implants make a cloaked ship harder (but never impossible) to scan down, versus better scanning skills and equipment making it easier. Even if you don't think of cloaks as the spaceboat answer to submarines, look at any sci-fi where they're featured. Ones where the crew cloaked up and then went for a brew would make for very boring stories.

Move along if this has already been discussed ad nauseum and I'm late to the party; I couldn't find any recent discussions on it with a cursory search.



Show me a kill mail where somebody was killed by a afk cloaker and I will agree that there is a problem, until then, HTFU
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#11 - 2014-06-10 18:20:45 UTC
Burrick V'ar wrote:
It is currently possible to basically shut down activity in a none-empire system by just cloaking up a scanning ship in the middle of nowhere and then going afk.
There's a very easy way around that: don't shut down the activity just because there's a cloaker in the middle of nowhere.

Quote:
Move along if this has already been discussed ad nauseum and I'm late to the party; I couldn't find any recent discussions on it with a cursory search.

I take it that “cursory search” is a new way of expressing “no search”. There are roughly 80 bajillion threads about it, many of them in the right forum section.
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#12 - 2014-06-10 18:21:39 UTC
I will vote for this (redundant) idea on one condition;

I can have a skill which also allows me to appear in local in systems Im not actually in

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Burrick V'ar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-06-10 18:21:55 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
First!


I see your points but you know you are poking a hornets nest, don't you?


I would leave cloaking "alone" in such a manner that nobody gets an instant defeat cloak and gank measure.

The only 2 changes I would make:


1. If the client has no activity for a given time, the player is logged off (as one who has tried to play after a long weekend of outdoor work, and fallen asleep at the keyboard, this would be a good thing).
2. Allow special probes to "see" but NOT get a warpable hit on a cloaked ship. It should always be impossible to get a warp hit on a cloaked ship. But it would be nice to know if a cloaked ship is on the move or if within the D-scan range. Frankly I think that having a general idea of where it is makes things more interesting and also makes lurking more fun for the cloaker too as cloaking in a system to "bother" people can be quite boring but the "victims" of cloaking activity would be rather unnerved if they saw the cloaker "moving".

Look at it this way: SCUBA divers KNOW there are sharks below the water at the beach. People know sharks are in the ocean. Ever fly over a beach in a helicopter and see all the sharks amongst the people in the water (I have, from a CH-47 "shithook" in Italy). Every time I see aerial pics of that I know that if the people in the water could see what I was seeing their beach outing would have a bit more.... "edge" to it. Twisted


Meh. You can't post without someone getting buttmad. I'll just be ignoring the "hurf durf if u dont like it dont play eve XD" posts. Good suggestions, though. Being able to see what grid the cloaked ship was on but not warp to the ship, combined with some kind of depth-charge module, like a mid-slot mod that extends Smart Bomb range, for instance, would be a good solution.
Solecist Project
#14 - 2014-06-10 18:22:59 UTC

People decide to stay docked, but nobody is actually forcing them.


I don't see the issue. Cowards deserve punishment.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Prince Kobol
#15 - 2014-06-10 18:23:44 UTC
Burrick V'ar wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
First!


I see your points but you know you are poking a hornets nest, don't you?


I would leave cloaking "alone" in such a manner that nobody gets an instant defeat cloak and gank measure.

The only 2 changes I would make:


1. If the client has no activity for a given time, the player is logged off (as one who has tried to play after a long weekend of outdoor work, and fallen asleep at the keyboard, this would be a good thing).
2. Allow special probes to "see" but NOT get a warpable hit on a cloaked ship. It should always be impossible to get a warp hit on a cloaked ship. But it would be nice to know if a cloaked ship is on the move or if within the D-scan range. Frankly I think that having a general idea of where it is makes things more interesting and also makes lurking more fun for the cloaker too as cloaking in a system to "bother" people can be quite boring but the "victims" of cloaking activity would be rather unnerved if they saw the cloaker "moving".

Look at it this way: SCUBA divers KNOW there are sharks below the water at the beach. People know sharks are in the ocean. Ever fly over a beach in a helicopter and see all the sharks amongst the people in the water (I have, from a CH-47 "shithook" in Italy). Every time I see aerial pics of that I know that if the people in the water could see what I was seeing their beach outing would have a bit more.... "edge" to it. Twisted


Meh. You can't post without someone getting buttmad. I'll just be ignoring the "hurf durf if u dont like it dont play eve XD" posts. Good suggestions, though. Being able to see what grid the cloaked ship was on but not warp to the ship, combined with some kind of depth-charge module, like a mid-slot mod that extends Smart Bomb range, for instance, would be a good solution.



It would help if you could prove there was an actual problem first.
Radelix Cisko
JUMP DRIVE ACTIVE
#16 - 2014-06-10 18:23:58 UTC
OHHH GOD, SEARCH FUNCTION. please use it.

Despite my posting prowess I really am terrible at this game

Paranoid Loyd
#17 - 2014-06-10 18:24:54 UTC
16

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Burrick V'ar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-06-10 18:27:20 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:

People decide to stay docked, but nobody is actually forcing them.


I don't see the issue. Cowards deserve punishment.


Fair point, well made.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#19 - 2014-06-10 18:28:45 UTC
Let's go ahead and have that original OP back, while we're at it:

Burrick V'ar wrote:

It is currently possible to basically shut down activity in a none-empire system by just cloaking up a scanning ship in the middle of nowhere and then going afk. By just coming back once in a while to scan down what is in system and hot drop it if you find something worth the effort, you're either shutting down an entire system or forcing other players to be 100% vigilant (which is no bad thing), but you're putting basically no effort in at your end. That's not interesting, and it's not fun. But, in case you disagree, let's look at the fluff.

Cloaky ships are supposed to be the space boat equivalent of submarines, right? Well submarines aren't invisible. A skilled sonar operator can find a sub given time and means. It should be the same way with cloaks. Utter undetectability makes the game unengaging and uninteresting. If cloaks made ships invisible on-grid and disappear from overview, but only reduced their sig radius significantly for combat scanning purposes, it would stop this dull stalemate from happening. Perhaps some kind of sliding scale should be introduced whereby cloaking skills, module tiers, and implants make a cloaked ship harder (but never impossible) to scan down, versus better scanning skills and equipment making it easier. Even if you don't think of cloaks as the spaceboat answer to submarines, look at any sci-fi where they're featured. Ones where the crew cloaked up and then went for a brew would make for very boring stories.

Move along if this has already been discussed ad nauseum and I'm late to the party; I couldn't find any recent discussions on it with a cursory search.

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#20 - 2014-06-10 18:29:40 UTC
Set local to delayed.
Reduce local range to grid.
Set constellation chat to immediate.
Add intelligence, alarm and scanning tools.

Probably in the reverse order.
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