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Intergalactic Summit

 
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A Remembrance - The Battle of Mekhios

Author
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#41 - 2014-06-09 23:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
I do love how everyone with half a brain seems to know what is best for everyone in a conflict that spans half the cluster, involves trillions of people, and has gone on for about a thousand years. Perhaps eventually the mass stupidity of all those half-brains will reach a critical mass and the cluster will implode into a dimension of rainbows and pink heart-filled skies where skadi kittens and slaver puppies play with each other while the Empress and Shakor share glasses of lemonade and giggle.

Or maybe people can shut it and let us mourn in peace. Anyone who is concerned that this will not be a 'fair and equal' ceremony are completely free to stage their own memorial for their heroes that died in the Elder Fleet.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#42 - 2014-06-09 23:45:52 UTC
You make the mistake of assigning hatred and revenge as the universal motivation. From a significant chunk of public communications - here on the IGS and elsewhere - and from personal meetings I think I can say with confidence that is hardly the case. Great portions of the people attacking the Empire do so motivated by the fairly enormous issue at the core of this conflict. The enslavement of a humongous portion of their population.

Remove that cause and you remove the effect.

As I said before, some would remain hostile and have a need for vengeance no different from the minorities present in all our nations and factions. You would however lose a generous portion of the attackers as they simply lose a reason to fight.

It's not an easy task to be sure, but it's very much doable. Abolish slavery entirely and offer them all citizenship, a paid job and giving them the responsibility to care for themselves. It's in the end cheaper, more efficient, increases incentive for doing a good job, takes away an enormous expense in defending against those who fight because of slavery, increases diplomatic and trade credibility and good will, increases freedom to move both laterally and vertically in social layers and jobs which allows for talents to shine and failures to be culled.

I'd continue but I tried reading that out loud and my medical implants started warning me of oxygen deprivation.

There are obviously consequences to such an action but the benefits would be immeasurable, especially over time. Imagine ending - for the most part - the greatest conflict New Eden has known with a single stroke. There'll always be something to fight for or against, but stubbornly resisting the most basic of progress and thus prolonging the conflict, war, suffering and death over generations more is just staggeringly stupid.

The Empire being slow to change is an excuse not much different than "it's tradition". It is meaningless other than to say that they're stuck in a rut and are too scared to peek over the edge to see where everyone else have gone.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-06-10 00:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Bryen Verrisai
That's all well and good, but it has little bearing on the crimes of the Elder Fleet which this thread addresses specifically. I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe you're going to convince anyone of the righteousness involved in using charity money to build a war fleet, launching said war fleet against a neutral peacekeeping entity, going on an interstellar rampage, and even after causing so much destruction and suffering still failing to accomplish its goals in any significant degree.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#44 - 2014-06-10 00:20:32 UTC
No one was trying to convince you of the "righteousness" of the Elder Fleet. I'm saying there was a reason it happened. That reason never had to exist, and the Empire has had the option of rectifying the greatest crime New Eden has ever seen for hundreds of years now. They haven't. This has consequences.

I can't condone the calamities and atrocities every nation in New Eden has inflicted upon others, but in many cases - this one very much a prime example - I have no problems recognizing and understanding why it happened. More importantly, recognizing how it could have been entirely avoided.

The crimes of the Elder Fleet pales in comparison to the millennia of continuous crimes that culminated in that very event.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#45 - 2014-06-10 00:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
The continued existence of slavery in the Empire is not a crime. Not by Amarr law, and not by CONCORD interstellar law (which every founding nation, including the Republic, agreed to).

What the Republic did, and what this memorial is about, was a crime, by CONCORD interstellar law.
Jade Blackwind
#46 - 2014-06-10 00:46:51 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
The crimes of the Elder Fleet pales in comparison to the millennia of continuous crimes that culminated in that very event.

Ms. Otsito,
may I ask,
If you were raised from birth in a society where it is considered a sacred act to consume the flesh of your deceased kin so that you might properly honor their deeds in life, would you do so? I assure you, it tastes like chicken.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-06-10 00:50:31 UTC
I have to rescind my previous statement: the Elder Fleet did accomplish something extremely significant. Their complete and total annihilation at the hands of Empress Jamyl Sarum I allowed her to seize the reigns of the Empire and eventually take one of the first great steps toward the end of Amarrian slavery, as well as generally leading the Empire on a path toward long-lasting peace.

I guess it's just another of life's many ironies: the Elder Fleet's ultimate failure was its crowning achievement. No pun intended.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-06-10 02:18:15 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
The continued existence of slavery in the Empire is not a crime. Not by Amarr law, and not by CONCORD interstellar law (which every founding nation, including the Republic, agreed to).

What the Republic did, and what this memorial is about, was a crime, by CONCORD interstellar law.


There is a school of thought which holds that where what is legal is in conflict with what is moral, morality wins.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Evelyn Meiyi
Corvidae Trading and Holding
#49 - 2014-06-10 02:49:53 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Let's be fair here. This memorial and the way the announcement was worded could pretty much be translated to "Shots fired!". Return fire is inevitable when you do it that way. The Malkalen announcement and thread went pretty well to a point, due to the far more balanced and neutral tone used in remembrance of the event rather than a "Glory to the State, poop on the Fedos" tone.

Once more, the Empire seems slow to embrace these kinds of things.


This.

The announcement for the memorial was a political statement, not any sort of genuine desire to announce an upcoming solemn event. Instead of just saying "Lives were lost, let's set politics aside and remember the impact of our actions" the OP decided to scream "Rawr! Look how naughty those minmatar are! Poor us!"

When you start a thread with a politically slanted statement, expect responses in kind.

My condolences to everyone who lost loved ones that day. It wasnt just Amarrians who died, after all.



I'm going to end up regretting sticking my nose into this (as usual), but it must be said:

People died.

Whether or not it was originally a political maneuver, that we are supposedly 'morally superior' to another party is a ridiculous concept when faced with that simple fact.

Shaman Surionen, I will say what you seem unable or unwilling to accept: that because of hostility on both sides, lives were lost. Not by Imperial hands alone, nor by those of the Republic. That blood is on both of our peoples' hands.

While we're busy turning a memorial for the fallen into a distasteful propaganda piece, let's at least attempt to remember that nobody is blameless in the matter.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#50 - 2014-06-10 02:59:43 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
The continued existence of slavery in the Empire is not a crime. Not by Amarr law, and not by CONCORD interstellar law (which every founding nation, including the Republic, agreed to).

What the Republic did, and what this memorial is about, was a crime, by CONCORD interstellar law.


There is a school of thought which holds that where what is legal is in conflict with what is moral, morality wins.


The Law may upset reason a thousand times, but Reason may never upset the law.

Which is... well... not true except in that when individual sentiment is used as a reason to overturn a millennia of a society's collected wisdom, it never leads to good things.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-06-10 08:04:36 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The Law may upset reason a thousand times, but Reason may never upset the law.

Which is... well... not true except in that when individual sentiment is used as a reason to overturn a millennia of a society's collected wisdom, it never leads to good things.


The trick isn't to overturn the law, the trick is to accurately judge those occasions when, even if you are caught and punished, more is gained by breaking the law than is lost by following it. A principle that capsuleers put into rather direct practice via the infamous suicide gank.

A well-designed system of law makes such occasions vanishingly rare. But if the prize, for example, is your long-annexed homeworld, or a tribe of cousins otherwise destined for extinction...

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#52 - 2014-06-10 12:06:46 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
The continued existence of slavery in the Empire is not a crime. Not by Amarr law, and not by CONCORD interstellar law (which every founding nation, including the Republic, agreed to).

What the Republic did, and what this memorial is about, was a crime, by CONCORD interstellar law.


There is a school of thought which holds that where what is legal is in conflict with what is moral, morality wins.



I'm quite sure slavery is regarded as quite moral in the Empire as well.
CONCORD, albeit a failure through and through in theory exists to sort out culturological and political differences between the BIg Four.
As such, your school of thought might be right, but only if dragged out of context.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc

Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#53 - 2014-06-10 12:17:11 UTC
Blooders find draining people to be a moral thing to do. Moral relativism doesn't get any less stupid just because it's ratified by a CONCORD.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#54 - 2014-06-10 12:17:26 UTC
Damnit. Been doubleposting for some time now. Gotta run some comms diagnostics.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#55 - 2014-06-10 13:08:52 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Eh fine. Just seems pointless to make memorial threads when they just turn into bashing each other every time, instead of, you know, remembering the dead people.


In many ways, we remember them best by keeping their cause alive. By being angry for them.


And then you join Imperial Outlaws.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2014-06-10 14:28:48 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Eh fine. Just seems pointless to make memorial threads when they just turn into bashing each other every time, instead of, you know, remembering the dead people.


In many ways, we remember them best by keeping their cause alive. By being angry for them.


And then you join Imperial Outlaws.



In Exile were kind enough to make me a very generous offer. Whilst Empire loyalists, they are a bit more understanding of my special problems than most Nationalistic Loyalist organisations. My skillset is very much best suited for small scale low-sec security engagements which, with the best will in the world, means flying for either the State or the Empire.

It's a mercenary contract, Ava.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#57 - 2014-06-10 14:47:33 UTC
Then I shall do my all to dispense to you such currency as you have earned, Pieter, in as large of quantity as I can deliver it.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2014-06-10 14:55:30 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Then I shall do my all to dispense to you such currency as you have earned, Pieter, in as large of quantity as I can deliver it.


Within the customary usages and observances of the law of arms, I hope?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Evelyn Meiyi
Corvidae Trading and Holding
#59 - 2014-06-10 15:00:33 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Within the customary usages and observances of the law of arms, I hope?


'Those with the arms make the law'?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2014-06-10 15:29:48 UTC
Evelyn Meiyi wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Within the customary usages and observances of the law of arms, I hope?


'Those with the arms make the law'?


Now, now, Lady Meiyi. I'm sure you know that there is legislation covering the recovery and treatment of Prisoners of War and engagement of acceptable targets within the War Zone.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.