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The fallacy of long term w-space habitation as stated by CCP

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CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#81 - 2011-12-05 10:26:06 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Roime wrote:
lol @ API-whiners

It was a stupid meta-game tool that should have never existed, good riddance. Wormholes don't register jumps, they are not man-built stargates.

Read again

Quote:
"it's not supposed to be easy"


and again until you understand.

And then once more.


- Roime


I advocate a complete removal of API intel from w-space. Read it again. As it stands now, API intel for w-space is a dinner bell as it shows NPC kills but not jumps. In essence, someone with a connecting wh to a system could sit on their ass doing whatever they want making periodic API calls to find out when a WH goes active and the active members are vulnerable. This is outright unacceptable.


API information in WH space is a little bit silly and we're reviewing this.
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2011-12-05 10:29:37 UTC
Make WH kills information delayed by 48+ hours? You still get historical data on activity levels of the hole but no live intel.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#83 - 2011-12-05 10:39:35 UTC
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Make WH kills information delayed by 48+ hours? You still get historical data on activity levels of the hole but no live intel.


It's exploration space, you shouldn't get any data.

Even delayed it's incredibly important information. The lack of intel means it's a dangerous place to be, but it should work both ways, it should also shield you from outsiders knowing about you.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2011-12-05 10:43:37 UTC
Another thing that's used a lot to create information on WH people is the killmails which they produce. Maybe look into removing location data from that as well, or would that be one step too far?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Hauling Hal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2011-12-05 10:49:34 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Another thing that's used a lot to create information on WH people is the killmails which they produce. Maybe look into removing location data from that as well, or would that be one step too far?


If I kill someone in a wormhole, please don't prevent me from telling anyone. I don't care if the person that died doesn't want me to.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#86 - 2011-12-05 10:50:47 UTC
Hauling Hal wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Another thing that's used a lot to create information on WH people is the killmails which they produce. Maybe look into removing location data from that as well, or would that be one step too far?


If I kill someone in a wormhole, please don't prevent me from telling anyone. I don't care if the person that died doesn't want me to.


Agreeing with this.
Hathrul
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2011-12-05 11:33:22 UTC
can someone please explain to me what alarm bell the OP is talking about??

The api system is delayed, it always has been. you can get some general info about usual play times of who ever inhabits a wormhole, but because of the delay there is just one way to see if there is something worth attacking, dscan.

if youre running sites, its the same. have scouts at wormholes and probes out to scan for new wormholes all the time. im not aware anything has changed in this regard. so we dont get to see how many people jumped an hour ago. i am shocked. oh no, wait, i barely cared. if i want intel on someones habits, my alt will be there watching you for days on end.

Wormholes werent supposed to be lived in permanently, but there are cap escalations, and who goes on daytripping in wormholes with several billion isk?

well, every big wormhole alliance to be honest. small, temporary posses that are there for just a few days. all ships logged at safespots. clean the system, make lotsa isk, return home, and wait for Aharm to visit us so one of us at least looses 10b in ships.

All id like in wormhole space is to be made more dangerous. less intel, less warning.

whoever said that he felt for us and all the wh brethren, dont. we love our own patch of space, and anyone crying about the changes simply isnt in the right place.
Sader Rykane
Midnight Sentinels
#88 - 2011-12-05 11:36:33 UTC
1) Cap escalations where designed to KILL caps, blame CCP for not doing their job correctly.

2) PI did not exist before W-Space, therefore W-Space was not created with PI in mind.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2011-12-05 11:36:47 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Roime wrote:
lol @ API-whiners

It was a stupid meta-game tool that should have never existed, good riddance. Wormholes don't register jumps, they are not man-built stargates.

Read again

Quote:
"it's not supposed to be easy"


and again until you understand.

And then once more.


- Roime


I advocate a complete removal of API intel from w-space. Read it again. As it stands now, API intel for w-space is a dinner bell as it shows NPC kills but not jumps. In essence, someone with a connecting wh to a system could sit on their ass doing whatever they want making periodic API calls to find out when a WH goes active and the active members are vulnerable. This is outright unacceptable.


API information in WH space is a little bit silly and we're reviewing this.


Thanks!

Don't ban me, bro!
Zendon Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
#90 - 2011-12-05 11:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendon Taredi
By short term you mean 2 years, right? We need personal storage and clone bays, if you want to give us some nice ****.
Splodger
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2011-12-05 12:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Splodger
Mr Kidd wrote:
CCP Greyscal wrote:
[quote]
- I appreciate that this changes.....


Honestly what the hell do you want from wormhole space?

1) You want ccp to remove poses...fine but you dont need a pos to live in a a system - an orca will do....and make wormhole space look even more deserted.

2) You want to remove poco's - ok but what the hell are you going to do once your tired of chaining you static for pew or fancy a change this would create a wormhole system of c1-c3's that people can "farm" nomadically because basically thats what your asking for here.


removing team work from c5-c6 due to force needed - honestly do you want a c1-c4's that you can solo by yourself so you dont have to play with anyone?


3) Remove API data - why not it doesnt mean much in the grand scheme of things. (your an idiot to think it favours attackers, carebears can use it aswell to see if anyone has jumped into their system).

You ask for removing API data in favour of attackers, but why not remove using probes to see if a new wormwhole signature is present or even ask for wormhole system to be greater than 24 au so those in a system under 14au are safer than those who arnt?

You have no sense of balance in your posting and i would not want it to ruin wormhole space beyond more than it needs to.
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
#92 - 2011-12-05 12:42:51 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Blood Fart wrote:
If they didn't expect players to inhabit w-space then why can you launch a pos in a wormhole?


Because we generally find it more interesting to give players as few restrictions as we're comfortable with, and see what happens.


In this particular situation, ensuring that w-space starbase logistics would be "balanced" after this change would first require us to have a long discussion about how difficult w-space logistics should be in the first place, which would likely end up spilling across into a lot of other areas of w-space mechanics. Given how ingenious and adaptable w-space dwellers have proved to be in the past, and how minor this adjustment seemed when compared to the difficulties of setting up shop in w-space in the first place, we figured that the majority of these players would simply roll with the changes regardless, so we postponed the big balancing discussion until we have time to look at it properly, and implemented the starbase changes as-is in the meantime.



Obviously we're not in a position to make authoritative statements about things that will occur in the future (due to a lack of time-travel technology), but our general inclination is that future w-space improvements should accommodate the (clearly very popular) "frontier settlement" playstyle that's sprung up since Apocrypha as a major component, without precluding the possibility of also providing a true wilderness experience for explorers.



Thumbs up. I think it's a good design philosophy.

I just want to say that when WH dwellers have difficulties with logistics, UI or other game mechanics, it is sometimes a symptom of issues that are universal but more profound in WHs. The bookmark situation is the perfect example. Corps in WHs had to make up some makeshift solutions, but the impracticality of bookmarks was universal. Some of the issues with POS'es and corp roles are also universal even if people in WHs feel it the most.


In regards to the API I always felt it was silly that the API exported data about WH traffic, and I applaud that this has been limited. I'd prefer if WHs were exempt from all public statistics that is normally available on the starmap.
Shenra Twrin
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2011-12-05 12:43:43 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
@ Soundwave


PLS dont nerf WH-Space because some carebears get ganked and cry here.

I would say 80% of all WH kills are the product of bad or no scouting most of them dont even have probes out then they are farming sites.. its like lalalalala making bilions of isk and be secure just like in highsec im lonely in my system and nobody gank me lalala brain afk....


WH is an really cool space dont change it please.
You need to scout a lot u need much team work and also a good logistic....

but many carebears only see the money in wh and get thier ass ganked like they should because they dont do it right....

I want to say that, I see SOOOOOOO many so shity builded pos with no hardners or just a fkn fail setup or they fly without any probes... and wtf 3-6man coorps in whs they are supposed to get thier pos destoryed... ( in c3+)

WH-Space is not ISKmakingWonderland and if they dont know how to live there they shouldnt do...
SO Carebears gtfo WH go in your cotton-sec and fly lvl4 or mine veldspar


tl:dr with less hate

WH-space is fine ( ok api stuff is questionable) but rest more than ok....To the Cap to escalate a site stfu ... yeah u need good logistics and just build it in wh or buy it in low/0.0 and fly it in.... you make more than enough money in wh....
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2011-12-05 12:44:14 UTC
I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.

Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#95 - 2011-12-05 12:53:48 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.

Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind.


It's like forcing people into low/nullsec. They won't go, they will quit. I totally support this, don't nerf working w-space.

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#96 - 2011-12-05 13:21:12 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.

Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind.


I don't really think we're nerfing WH space as a whole. This is a pretty big information loophole where players outside of wormholes will be able to map population, activity etc. That's not intended and needs to get fixed.

On the other hand, we've done a lot for wormholes in Crucibles, especially when it comes to living out of a POS and using bookmarks. As a sidenote, expect more changes like that in our next major patch. Overall, life in WH space should be getting easier as a side effect of us improving related features.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#97 - 2011-12-05 13:32:03 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.

Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind.


I don't really think we're nerfing WH space as a whole. This is a pretty big information loophole where players outside of wormholes will be able to map population, activity etc. That's not intended and needs to get fixed.

On the other hand, we've done a lot for wormholes in Crucibles, especially when it comes to living out of a POS and using bookmarks. As a sidenote, expect more changes like that in our next major patch. Overall, life in WH space should be getting easier as a side effect of us improving related features.


Hey Hey HEY!

Not too easy I hope. Be careful not to nerf the spirit out of them. Yeah, POS mechanics would be a nice change... more control over corp hangars, allowing people to have specific roles at one POS but not another, things like that. Being able to refit T3 subsystems at a POS... dude, we'd love ya for that.

I'll have to agree... I don't see this as a nerf at all, what you've done so far. Yeah, it's wierd to have something taken away and easy to over-react before thinking things through... but most people I've talked to don't really care that the jump info is gone. Hey, if we lose it, so do they. We adapt.

You know what would be nice... ice. I'd love a supply of ice in wormholes. Maybe also getting rid of (or softening) the penalties on refining arrays... those are brutal. For the love of the gods, however, no moon goo. Leave the goo to the safe spaces, please. Not interested in the hassle.

You know... if you wanted to offer hints of what "related changes" you all are looking into, no one would complain... Blink

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#98 - 2011-12-05 13:33:42 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
I was going to write some big speech about why i love wormhole space and hate known space but i'll simply say, if CCP ever force me out of W-space by nerfing them, i'll quit eve all together.

Wormhole space needs buffing if anything and i would like to see ships specifically designed with WH's in mind.


I don't really think we're nerfing WH space as a whole. This is a pretty big information loophole where players outside of wormholes will be able to map population, activity etc. That's not intended and needs to get fixed.

On the other hand, we've done a lot for wormholes in Crucibles, especially when it comes to living out of a POS and using bookmarks. As a sidenote, expect more changes like that in our next major patch. Overall, life in WH space should be getting easier as a side effect of us improving related features.


Granted if you remove the still existing APIs for w-space. I really appreciate the changes to POS management and especially the Corp BMs.

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#99 - 2011-12-05 13:47:01 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Make WH kills information delayed by 48+ hours? You still get historical data on activity levels of the hole but no live intel.


It's exploration space, you shouldn't get any data.

Even delayed it's incredibly important information. The lack of intel means it's a dangerous place to be, but it should work both ways, it should also shield you from outsiders knowing about you.

+1

The logic of "no local" (which is awesome by the way) should apply to the API too.

People in wormholes should be completely off of the grid, I'd even go as far as saying they should show as offline as soon as they go inside but I imagine that would cause all kinds of peculiar problems.
Qual
Knights of a Once Square Table INC.
#100 - 2011-12-05 14:13:55 UTC
Durzel wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:
Make WH kills information delayed by 48+ hours? You still get historical data on activity levels of the hole but no live intel.


It's exploration space, you shouldn't get any data.

Even delayed it's incredibly important information. The lack of intel means it's a dangerous place to be, but it should work both ways, it should also shield you from outsiders knowing about you.

+1

The logic of "no local" (which is awesome by the way) should apply to the API too.

People in wormholes should be completely off of the grid, I'd even go as far as saying they should show as offline as soon as they go inside but I imagine that would cause all kinds of peculiar problems.


Aye. This I how it was when it went out. I see the whole API thing as an oversight and by extension a bug. Good riddence with the part that is allready gone. Party when its all gone.

---

What I would like to see next was a few regions with 0.0 mechanics + no local added as alternative exits to wh space. This would be high end 0.0 with no local and no easy access to empire. Truely a "new world".