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A Remembrance - The Battle of Mekhios
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Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2014-06-09 17:25:24 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Better the lesson learned at that cost, than not learned at the same cost.


Ancestors, you're in a grim mood Verin.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#22 - 2014-06-09 17:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
The lesson learned is that no matter how much you attempt to appease them and no matter how faithfully you adhere to your negotiated settlements, some people will refuse to set aside vengeance. Diplomacy cannot be relied on, only force of arms.

Jinari Otsito wrote:
The gentlest of nudges, like an invasion fleet as a result of truly staggering acts of cruelty and enslavement.


We are under no obligation to eliminate our culture for people who have proven that they don't care how much you try to change. The only thing an invasion fleet nudges you toward is insuring that your defenses are stronger so that you can better repel them the next time they try.

Isn't that what the Caldari believe, too? It's certainly a lesson the Minmatar took to heart after we conquered them.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#23 - 2014-06-09 17:54:19 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
The lesson learned is that no matter how much you attempt to appease them and no matter how faithfully you adhere to your negotiated settlements, some people will refuse to set aside vengeance. Diplomacy cannot be relied on, only force of arms.

Jinari Otsito wrote:
The gentlest of nudges, like an invasion fleet as a result of truly staggering acts of cruelty and enslavement.


We are under no obligation to eliminate our culture for people who have proven that they don't care how much you try to change. The only thing an invasion fleet nudges you toward is insuring that your defenses are stronger so that you can better repel them the next time they try.

Isn't that what the Caldari believe, too? It's certainly a lesson the Minmatar took to heart after we conquered them.


Um, the Empire is still doing the stuff that pissed us off in the first place?

Some appeasement there. Are you getting enough oxygen, Ms. Kernher? B-vitamins?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Anslo
Scope Works
#24 - 2014-06-09 18:13:22 UTC
Can I ask something?

Any time some kind of memorial thread has popped up, every loyalist manages to turn it into a blame game of who's fault it was that people died. Then it goes to a well he hit me first, no he hit me first, no you, no you, and so and so forth.

Why is that?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#25 - 2014-06-09 18:32:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Anslo wrote:
Can I ask something?

Any time some kind of memorial thread has popped up, every loyalist manages to turn it into a blame game of who's fault it was that people died. Then it goes to a well he hit me first, no he hit me first, no you, no you, and so and so forth.

Why is that?


Because we're still angry about it. You have to be angry in order to dedicate your eternity to poking someone else in the eye.

I'm still mad as anything about the bombardment of Caldari Prime and that was over 200 years ago. I know it's weird, but that's patriotism for you.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-06-09 18:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bryen Verrisai
Indira Harashani wrote:
The lesson that Republic-affiliated warships should, the moment they leave Republic space, be shot out of the sky swiftly, without question, and with overwhelming force

I wish I could say this wasn't true. I can't, but I wish I could.

Samira Kernher wrote:
Diplomacy cannot be relied on, only force of arms.

Now this I have to disagree with. Diplomacy is a great tool that gets the best results almost every time. But for the times it doesn't, it is ideal to keep a big stick close at hand.

And as far as appeasing the Matari, Ms. Kernher, it takes a little getting used to learning how to hand-feed them. Unfortunately, the Federation has been almost as bad a parent to them as the Empire; Where the Amarr were abusive, we of the Federation spoil them far too much, giving them the things they want when they make a big enough tantrum.
Anslo
Scope Works
#27 - 2014-06-09 18:36:16 UTC
Eh fine. Just seems pointless to make memorial threads when they just turn into bashing each other every time, instead of, you know, remembering the dead people.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#28 - 2014-06-09 18:46:21 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Eh fine. Just seems pointless to make memorial threads when they just turn into bashing each other every time, instead of, you know, remembering the dead people.


In many ways, we remember them best by keeping their cause alive. By being angry for them.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Anslo
Scope Works
#29 - 2014-06-09 18:49:23 UTC
Well, when you put it that way. Still, would be nice to see one memorial without GRR.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#30 - 2014-06-09 19:18:10 UTC
Let's be fair here. This memorial and the way the announcement was worded could pretty much be translated to "Shots fired!". Return fire is inevitable when you do it that way. The Malkalen announcement and thread went pretty well to a point, due to the far more balanced and neutral tone used in remembrance of the event rather than a "Glory to the State, poop on the Fedos" tone.

Once more, the Empire seems slow to embrace these kinds of things.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#31 - 2014-06-09 19:34:41 UTC
Or we simply have no need nor desire to embrace it.

There is no reason for us to paint an event with a "balanced and neutral" brush when the event itself was not balanced and neutral.
Anslo
Scope Works
#32 - 2014-06-09 19:36:46 UTC
Who cares if the event was neutral? This is about the people that died, not the event's political reasoning.

Then again after reading Jinari's post and seeing everything else going down in this thread, guess it WAS about politics from the start.

Welp.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#33 - 2014-06-09 20:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jinari Otsito
Samira Kernher wrote:
Or we simply have no need nor desire to embrace it.

There is no reason for us to paint an event with a "balanced and neutral" brush when the event itself was not balanced and neutral.


No, you're right. It was a reasonable response to centuries of misdeeds. An attempt at restoring a certain balance. I'm just very happy there's a growing amount of Imperials that are moving forwards rather than staying stuck in the past. You should try it, as it's the only way to end your continuing stream of external troubles.

Yes Anslo, sadly it was. It could have been a moment of remembrance and finding strength to face the future with greater wisdom and a will to improve both the Empire and New Eden as a whole. Instead, well... shots fired, and I suspect ammunition will be a safe investment for a long time to come.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-06-09 20:43:37 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
No, you're right. It was a reasonable response to centuries of misdeeds.

Was the bombing of Caldari Prime a reasonable response to the destruction of Nouvelle Rouvenor?

You walk a very dangerous line when you accept the lives of innocents as currency for the disbursement of revenge.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#35 - 2014-06-09 20:44:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Jinari Otsito wrote:
No, you're right. It was a reasonable response to centuries of misdeeds. An attempt at restoring a certain balance. I'm just very happy there's a growing amount of Imperials that are moving forwards rather than staying stuck in the past. You should try it, as it's the only way to end your continuing stream of external troubles.


Less than you think. That invasion did more to encourage a return to Reclaiming by the sword than any Sarumite or Tetrimon cultist ever could.

We were moving "forwards" for the last century, with the recognizing of the Republic as a sovereign state (instead of the rebellious territory it actually was), the joint forming of the CONCORD Assembly for the purpose of international diplomacy and negotiation, the ending of slavetaking in foreign space, and various mass emancipations to the Republic with costs paid at the Empire's expense (despite the fact that by all rights those people were Imperial citizens, not Republic ones). His Holiness The Emperor Heideran VII, may he be at peace in Heaven, was presented a Federal peace award for his efforts in international affairs, afterall. But the Republic decided that it did not wish to move forward, so don't expect the Empire to continue making the effort.

Quote:
Yes Anslo, sadly it was. It could have been a moment of remembrance and finding strength to face the future with greater wisdom and a will to improve both the Empire and New Eden as a whole. Instead, well... shots fired, and I suspect ammunition will be a safe investment for a long time to come.


It is disingenious and disrespectful to remember deaths while forgetting the enemy that actually committed the murders.

It is a moment of remembrance and finding strength to face the future with greater wisdom and a will to improve. And that strength and wisdom is the building of stronger defenses and harder policies to secure our borders against any future encroachment. That is the best way to remember the people who died--making sure that that event will not happen again.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#36 - 2014-06-09 20:57:18 UTC
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the question of slavery - and the Empire has made advances in that area, albeit at a rate younger civilisations might find glacial, it would be an odd group of humans who would happily accept correction at the hands of a hostile fleet of warships. Especially one that failed in it's goals.

Of course it is sometimes true that the only way to get someone's attention is to punch them on the nose.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#37 - 2014-06-09 21:33:03 UTC
So, no. You're not getting enough oxygen. Right then.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#38 - 2014-06-09 21:37:31 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Let's be fair here. This memorial and the way the announcement was worded could pretty much be translated to "Shots fired!". Return fire is inevitable when you do it that way. The Malkalen announcement and thread went pretty well to a point, due to the far more balanced and neutral tone used in remembrance of the event rather than a "Glory to the State, poop on the Fedos" tone.

Once more, the Empire seems slow to embrace these kinds of things.


This.

The announcement for the memorial was a political statement, not any sort of genuine desire to announce an upcoming solemn event. Instead of just saying "Lives were lost, let's set politics aside and remember the impact of our actions" the OP decided to scream "Rawr! Look how naughty those minmatar are! Poor us!"

When you start a thread with a politically slanted statement, expect responses in kind.

My condolences to everyone who lost loved ones that day. It wasnt just Amarrians who died, after all.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#39 - 2014-06-09 21:40:09 UTC
Forgetting the enemy would be disingenuous indeed. Almost as disingenuous as forgetting the reason they were enemies in the first place. Every hostile action they've performed is a direct result of your actions against them and continuous enslavement of their people.

The solution should be rather obvious. Remember the event and use it as a reason to remove their cause for aggression. Some would remain hostile and have a need for vengeance, but those are few compared to those who now have billions of living, breathing reasons still within your borders.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-06-09 22:56:19 UTC
Jinari Otsito wrote:
Remember the event and use it as a reason to remove their cause for aggression.

People who choose hatred and vengeance will always find a cause for aggression against those they've taught themselves to despise. And if they can not find one, they will create one.