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The rattlesnake and Gila one great one not so......

Author
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#21 - 2014-06-08 20:11:40 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:


I'm not sure how people havn't noticed the massive nerf bat the Gila just had.


Perhaps it's because the rest of us are using it correctly.. You fly a ship to it's strenghts, not it's weaknesses. Some folks are still trying to fly the Gila like it's the same coookier cutter "Ishtar light" it used to be. It's not.

An hour ago I killed a pvp fit stratios and chased off his enyo flying buddy in a pve fit Gila in low sec, all for the loss of one augmented Hammerhead. The old Gila would have (at best) been able to run away using ecm drones, but thats about it.



If it was PvE fit how'd you lock him there?

Either he was a great fool or more to that story.

It did gain in mobility so yes that is nice v.s. other cruiser size ships.

I just see it's over all effectiveness reduced. You happen to have the situation where the small improvement factor was on your side.

Pve took the nerf. Pvp got a mixed bag. Over all a nerf.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#22 - 2014-06-08 20:31:11 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:

If it was PvE fit how'd you lock him there?

Either he was a great fool or more to that story.


In another thread, Jenn posted that he used a microwarpdrive to bump the guy when he tried to align and warp out, then his drones tore him to shreds. Jenn might be a PVE player, but he's far from a carebear.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2014-06-08 21:14:15 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:


Debatable if the time spent on guiding sentries one by one can be offset by the eliminination of overkill, in the end we dont have ~200hp frigates an no instalock.

A ~750 damage blast from one of the new sentries can be surely worked around, if you are into that kind of stuff.

Not sure where the debate is. If I have 5 non-elite frigs targeted and 5 sentries deployed, I can spend an extra few seconds doing individual targets and have them all dead in ~10 seconds. If I have to put all my sentries on each, you're looking at easily ~25-30 seconds to kill all 5 due to rate of fire on sentries. It's a little better if I can split them 50/50 but still not as good as before.

Another strategy I used was having four of the drones on one target (bs/cruiser) and 1 on a frig. That has also now been nerfed, since you can only split the damage 50/50, you end up over killing the frig and doing less damage to the cruiser/BS/whatever.


One or two glances or misses and you have 12-14s easily, also if you oneshot each we are talking about 20s+
+ time to assign each
+ time half the sentries do not fire or you have to deal with it
+ elite frigates


Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#24 - 2014-06-08 21:20:07 UTC
That kill is on EVE kill since I can't post it here.

I don't see any nerf. The Gila (and Rattlesnake) just went from 'not used very much and thus very cheap compared to other ships of it's class' (Gila) and "the cheapest Faction BS because damn near no one uses it' (Rattlesnake) to "omg nice, lets fly these things again..

Hell, the super drones by themselves are worth the price of admission. In null sec I SMARTBOMB my own drones when using a rattlesnake with sentries or heavies deployed rather than pulling them (losing dps) to deploy light drones. 2 large smartbombs crush npc frigs.

The Gila in lvl 4 missions and cheap tech2 drones is "land, deploy drones, damp something (to keep aggro mostly on the Gila, as if it matters, I've seen my hammerheads tank aggro from 6 elite frigs), turn on FoF missiles and walk away from computer for 7 minutes (more if I just ignore the fof missles needing restarting, the missile dps is secondary). AFK mission dream.

I can't even STAND non Guristas ships when using drones now, regular drones are so weak except the Gecko.
Huyg Haklar
Doomheim
#25 - 2014-06-09 00:50:36 UTC
Anyone want to share a few kronos snake pve fits?

Been looking for a swift mission grinder, ala stoicfaux's mach, but with the snake upgrade plus it still being far and away the cheapest faction bs... I am wondering if I shouldn't give it a try.
CETA Elitist
The Prometheus Society
#26 - 2014-06-09 01:41:43 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
The Gila is definately living up to promise, I am using faction drones, and they rip through everything. They seem to hold up very well to damage and so long as they don't get webbed, you are fine, even then they seem to kill the webber ok and get out on their own.

This is a good ship and congratulations to CCP Rise and Fozzie.

The rattlesnake though is a different story, I lost 3 geckos the first day, heavies are not good enough to launch while there is anything to target them. On battleships when everything else is cleared, they are fine. 275% to damage is no replacement for a flight of 5.
Losing a DLA to use the new launcher, does not make for a pleasant experience, I seemed to be waiting way way more for things to get into range. MJD around to try to get range is not advisable as one ends up waiting again for cap to recharge, or MjD timer, before getting back to gate, plus waiting again to jump through to ensure you can actually use it again. Not fitting the launcher to fit the second DLA makes the ship even worse, as it then has all the downsides with none of the benefits.

One REALLY notices the loss of light drone bonuses, whilst other ships also have unbonused lights, they have a drone bay that carries spares, if one does this then one loses a set of sentries or heavies that really need spares.

In short, the buff to damage is good, but there is a lot of waiting around in missions that was not there before, there is a lot of micromanagement, due to the changes, and it is just "less Fun"
( I really mean a pain in the arse, but trying to be polite)

If the rattlesnake had only lost 3/4 of it's range bonus,
kept it's bonus on smaller drones, and kept it's drone bay ( in other words left drones alone).
And gained the same missile DPS increase without adding launchers, then it would have been a good pirate ship.

I am in favour of Hero drones, unfortunately the concept stops at mediums. Heavy drones replacing all the smaller drones, just doesn't work........
A rattlesnake with an 750% damage and hitpoint bonus to all drones and a 25mbps bandwidth would have been a very different and fascinating ship. If you are going to reduce drones they need a Massive boost to hitpoints otherwise it is simply just a few more seconds watching them to die.
As it is I have relegated mine to the back of the Hangar. for me it is a worse ship than before in spite of what appears on paper to be an improvement.
Hopefully the next rebalance whenever that is will at least make it as good as before, and god, it did need some love, but clearly that is never going to happen.

But look at the good side, gankers and gatecamps have a pirate ship now. It will work quite well at a preset range, when boosted up the wazoo, with something to deal with the frigates, and web and paint things to allow the rattler to apply full damage, good job *sarcasm*Roll

Such a shame for everyone else though.Sad

It is hard to believe that the same people are responsible for designing both ships.Big smile

I'm getting a.completely different experience with my rattlesnake. My gecko can tank multiple cruisers with barely a scratch while ripping holes in them without any DDA's. I don't know if shield skills affect drones but your OP suggests they make a massive difference.
Hasril Pux
Red Cabal
#27 - 2014-06-09 03:04:04 UTC
Huyg Haklar wrote:
Anyone want to share a few kronos snake pve fits?

Been looking for a swift mission grinder, ala stoicfaux's mach, but with the snake upgrade plus it still being far and away the cheapest faction bs... I am wondering if I shouldn't give it a try.


[Rattlesnake, Cabal Kodiak]
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster
Large Micro Jump Drive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Optimal Range Script
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link, Optimal Range Script
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Drone Link Augmentor II
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Guristas Inferno Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Guristas Inferno Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Guristas Inferno Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Guristas Inferno Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Guristas Inferno Cruise Missile

Large Drone Control Range Augmentor II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Ionic Field Projector I

Warrior II x5
Garde II x2
Warden II x2
Bouncer II x2
Guristas Inferno Cruise Missile x1000
or whatever

This is my current fail fit.

If you like any of the older ship models (original artwork) better than the redesign of your favorite hull and don't want them to be lost forever, support ship customization and this feature request.

Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#28 - 2014-06-09 03:32:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I am afraid that I find myself apathetic to your other claim.

Especially since locktime is the major factor in killing frigate rats, it really isn't that important in regards to the assignment. Either way you can kill them faster than you can lock new ones, so that caps your timeframe on it anyway.

Lock time for multiple frigs can be combined, kill time can't. In other words, 5 frigs can be locked in only a couple seconds more than 1 frig, but killing 5 frigs takes 5x as long as 1 frig if you don't split damage.

Lock up a bunch of frigs while you're killing something else, then when "something else" dies you split the sentries across the frigs while locking the next thing.

It worked really well before. Notsomuch now since you can assign damage only in 50% increments.

Barton Breau wrote:

One or two glances or misses and you have 12-14s easily, also if you oneshot each we are talking about 20s+
+ time to assign each
+ time half the sentries do not fire or you have to deal with it
+ elite frigates

I'm confused...are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? Your comments aren't really obvious.

Before Kronos, I could kill groups of frigs (and frigs in mixed groups) faster than post-Kronos, using either the 4/1 or 1/1/1/1/1 splits. That is no longer a possibility, and I'm not entirely sure that the increase in missile damage makes up for the lost time. If nothing else, it makes dealing with frigs much more annoying/frustrating...and L4 missions have a lot of frigs to deal with, and taking them out with drones is a good way to avoid the problems that missiles have in dealing with them.

Sure, I need to adapt to new ways of using the Rattlesnake, but it was definitely nerfed for some play styles...and I don't think the Rattlesnake was in any need of a nerf.

Another amusing thought I had this afternoon is that Guristas ship pilots technically don't benefit from having the Drones skill trained past 2...

Hopefully a null group will field rattlesnake drone assist fleets soon enough and get the hero drone nonsense reverted. A rattlesnake with the drone bay/bonus it had before and the missile bonus it has now? That would be a nice ship.
Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2014-06-09 03:48:46 UTC
It might help you understand the way Pirate ships are balanced if you keep in mind that, generally speaking, nobody cares how well they work as some WoW player's L4-running Autism Chariot. They are designed to be powerful and offer unique bonuses or combinations of abilities that gives them interesting niches in PvP. If those bonuses happen to make them desirable for PvE roles, okay. By the same token, if turning the Rattlesnake it something more interesting than a Dominix Shield Issue incidentally makes it less convenient to run missions with, oh well.

At least it should sell for more than it was worth before the patch when decide what to buy as your new mission boat!
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#30 - 2014-06-09 03:52:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:


I'm not sure how people havn't noticed the massive nerf bat the Gila just had.


Perhaps it's because the rest of us are using it correctly.. You fly a ship to it's strenghts, not it's weaknesses. Some folks are still trying to fly the Gila like it's the same coookier cutter "Ishtar light" it used to be. It's not.

An hour ago I killed a pvp fit stratios and chased off his enyo flying buddy in a pve fit Gila in low sec, all for the loss of one augmented Hammerhead. The old Gila would have (at best) been able to run away using ecm drones, but thats about it.

Hahaha! They shot your drones?! *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.. In the time it takes you to kill a ******* Gila's drones (10 mediums at ~10k EHP each, ~15k for Augmented Hammerheads), you could have killed it at least once, if not twice over.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2014-06-09 03:56:42 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Huyg Haklar wrote:
Anyone want to share a few kronos snake pve fits?

Been looking for a swift mission grinder, ala stoicfaux's mach, but with the snake upgrade plus it still being far and away the cheapest faction bs... I am wondering if I shouldn't give it a try.


[Rattlesnake, Level 3]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Imperial Navy Drone Damage Amplifier

Large Micro Jump Drive
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II


Berserker II x2
Ogre II x2
Hobgoblin II x5
Warden II x2

1700+ DPS close, just shy of 1500 long, 5.06 AU/s. Replace thermal mod for a sebo for faster locks, full set of med grade warp implants required (about 600 mil last time I got a set) plus a smattering of missile implants.
Huyg Haklar
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-06-09 14:13:31 UTC
Good to see you still around baltec. Thanks for the fit.
Burtzum
Det Som Engang Var
#33 - 2014-06-09 20:39:09 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:

I'm not sure how people havn't noticed the massive nerf bat the Gila just had.


Ireland VonVicious wrote:

I just see it's over all effectiveness reduced. You happen to have the situation where the small improvement factor was on your side. Pve took the nerf. Pvp got a mixed bag. Over all a nerf.


Well I've been using it for PvE. I've been doing hisec exploration sites since the patch using the Gila instead of my usual Ishtar. It works great, tanks all the sites fine. I don't miss the sentries. Completes Guristas 4/10 in 5 minutes. I killed 6 fellow explorer pilots with it, so my ship functions fine as a PvE boat even with some slots taken up with PvP modules. I also tried running lvl 4 Damsel in Distress and Angel Extravaganza + bonus room with a passive tanked Gila and it did fine there as well.
Euripedies
Hot Droppin Cherry Poppers
#34 - 2014-06-09 22:52:00 UTC
My rattlesnake awesome. Did a few lvl 4's this past weekend to check it out. Fitted for long range and added two tracking computers for the drones. Used one single gecko. It was awesome. The gecko killed every frigate on the field then killed everything else. It took a little shield damage but quickly shrugged it off. I sat out about 70 km away and let it do drones thing. My tank is about 157k ehp. Way over tanked.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-06-10 03:07:30 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:


--Whole lot of stuff about frigs.--



I do disagree with you, moreover if i wanted to be dismissive, i could easily put forward the notion that if you have problems with frigs in l4s using your playstyle, you are needlessly annoying yourself (and other people on forums).

I did, and so has mr A., try to be constructive and point out that just because you feel you have killed a particular 5 frig group 5-10s faster (arguably ignoring preparation and micromanagement extra time invested) it is very far from justifying the effort or proving that it had any significant impact on anything.

Keep up the good work.
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