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Paladin for L4: worth it?
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Alexander Leviathan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2011-12-04 17:46:01 UTC
DISCLAIMER: I'm a returning player, so forgive me if I ask or say stupid things :D

I was trying to fit on EFT the Paladin before purchasing it, but actually I'm wondering if its worth it...
Right now I use this:

[Abaddon, L4]

8x Mega Pulse Laser II (Conflagration L)

4x Cap Recharger II

Capacitor Power Relay II
Damage Control II
2x Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

3x Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

and I have, for example aganis Angel Cartel, 562DPS of tank ability and 562DPS damage done.
Now if I fit a Paladin on a similar way, like this:

[Paladin, L4]

4x Tachyon Beam Laser II (Multifrequency L)
Small Tractor Beam I
2x Salvager I

3x Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II

Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
2x Large Armor Repairer II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Damage Control II
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit

2x Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

I get 523DPS of tank ability and only 348DPS of damage done......something wrong? Can you suggest me a fit for L4 missions that makes the Paladin shine or at least worth the 600M+ difference with the Abbaddon?

Than you :)
Idicious Lightbane
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-12-04 18:10:28 UTC
Though I'm not very familiar with the Paladin I would sudgest easing up on the tank and adding some heatsinks in your lows for extra damage output, doing missions faster -> being able to tank more damage than the missions put out. You can generally get by with tanking a good deal less than the missions put out if you put enough gank on your ship as you will kill the incoming dps before it can seriously compromise your tank.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#3 - 2011-12-04 18:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasutra
These are for missions, right? Marauders tend to be... nevermind, it's in the title.

The mission paradigm you should be following is to emphasize gank over tank - kill the things before they get a chance to test your tank and cap endurance.

Which means you should get rid of one of your reppers, some of your cap modules, and replace them with heatsinks and tracking CPUs. You may want to switch over to a cap boosted setup, the Paladin has the grid for it. Try re-fitting with that in mind, and see what it gets you.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-12-04 18:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Buzzmong
Eww at OP's fits. I do wish people would stop fitting DC's to mission ships. Waste of a slot on most ships as the EHP given by the hull resists isn't needed and it's not often you run into the stacking penality for resists.
2x LAR aren't needed either, especially with the Paladins rep bonus.


Anyway, cookie cutter Paladin that I've been using recently to rather great effect, scraped from the wiki:

Highs:

  • 4x Tach II's
  • 3x whatever you want, I've gone with 1x Salv II and 2x Tractor beams

Meds

  • 1x Tracking Comp (range + tracking scripts)
  • 3x Cap Charger II's

Lows

  • 1x LAR - Faction is better. Dark Blood and Imp Navy are the same statwise, DB tend to be ~90 mil, IM ~115.
  • 3x Armour Hardeners II's - Mission spc
  • 3x Heatsink II

Rigs

  • 2x Large CCC


Remember to buy some Imp Navy MF as well. They're rather cost effective with tachs. I also take xray and standard.
Alara IonStorm
#5 - 2011-12-04 18:30:41 UTC
Alexander Leviathan wrote:
something wrong?

You have no Heatsinks on ether fit.

Heatsink = + 10% more Damage, +10.5% Rate of Fire.

Both your fits are also way over tanked. You only need 1 Repper to tank lvl 4 Missions. Your Heavy tank can not be sustained ether since your Capacitor will run low.

[Abaddon, Mission]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Large Armor Repairer II

Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

730 Scorch DPS not counting drones. 800 with Multi at 20km.

The Paladin has several advantages over the Abbadon for instance you can choose between a full rack of Tachs or go Megapulse. You have high explosive resists. You don't need a Cap Booster though there are some fits for the Abbadon that do not ether they usually have less DPS or can not AFK. You can Salvage the Mission as you go.

[Paladin, New Setup 1]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Multifrequency L
Small Tractor Beam I
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

It does need a faction Repair to fit it. You can add an ACR Power Rig to it and just fit T2 though.

785 using Multi not counting Drones. Fit with T2 Heat Sinks, 753 DPS.

With Megapulse and T2 Heatsinks Dmg is the same as the Abbadon.

Overall the greatest gift of the Pally is lazyness. turn off your guns leave the tank on and go grab a snack. No managing Cap Booster Charges or replacing Scorch Crystals.
Alexander Leviathan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2011-12-04 18:49:29 UTC
Thank you for the explanations guys! I'm gonna try the Abbaddon fits you suggested and then, when I'll finish gather the money, I'll try the Paladin stuff :D
I know the current fittings I use are overtanked for L4 but I've always been scared by being scrambled or overdamaged during the mission....
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-12-04 19:52:38 UTC
Of course, the other option is to take the paladin and its 90% webbers on over to run incursions. You'll make more isk faster, and you have all the advantages of a nightmare mixed with a vindicator - high dps, lasers (perfect range) and webs that can stop a frigate hard enough for battleships to murder. Of course, you do have to armor tank it, but some prefer it that way...

-Arazel
Desmios Sanguis
10th Crusade
#8 - 2011-12-05 01:21:17 UTC
Paladin's really aren't worth it, especially now with a noctis. Just use an abaddon and bring a noctis for salvage.
Brego Tralowski
Tralowski Independent Traders.
#9 - 2011-12-05 06:19:40 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
Eww at OP's fits. I do wish people would stop fitting DC's to mission ships. Waste of a slot on most ships as the EHP given by the hull resists isn't needed and it's not often you run into the stacking penality for resists.
2x LAR aren't needed either, especially with the Paladins rep bonus.


Anyway, cookie cutter Paladin that I've been using recently to rather great effect, scraped from the wiki:

Highs:

  • 4x Tach II's
  • 3x whatever you want, I've gone with 1x Salv II and 2x Tractor beams

Meds

  • 1x Tracking Comp (range + tracking scripts)
  • 3x Cap Charger II's

Lows

  • 1x LAR - Faction is better. Dark Blood and Imp Navy are the same statwise, DB tend to be ~90 mil, IM ~115.
  • 3x Armour Hardeners II's - Mission spc
  • 3x Heatsink II

Rigs

  • 2x Large CCC


Remember to buy some Imp Navy MF as well. They're rather cost effective with tachs. I also take xray and standard.


I tend to go with a similar fit, with slight Rig differences. I also dont bother with salvage and have 3x T2 STBs and collect the loot for reprocessing. Great ship to fly and goes through missions nicely.

Supplying Quality goods to the masses.

See 'T1 Module supplies' for all your T1 needs or T1.com in game chat.
Alexander Leviathan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-12-05 07:24:58 UTC
Sorry for being noob, but what are incursion and what is a noctis?^^
Alexander Leviathan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-12-05 11:45:32 UTC
Worked a bit with EveHQ today and I'm still confused....

[Abaddon, L4]

8x Mega Pulse Laser II (Conflagration L)

Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I (Cap Booster 800)
2x Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range)
Sensor Booster II (Scan Resolution)

3x Heat Sink II
Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
2x Armor Explosive Hardener II

2x Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I

Tank: 410 DPS Damage: 930DPS


[Paladin, L4]

4x Tachyon Beam Laser II (Gleam L)
2x Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I

3x Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range)

2x Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
3x Imperial Navy Heat Sink

2x Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

Tank: 325DPS Damage: 710DPS

I got it that in a paladin I can salvage while clearing, but will this worth a drop in damage/tank?
Puss in Boots
Naked Moon Industries
#12 - 2011-12-05 13:34:01 UTC
Alexander Leviathan wrote:
Worked a bit with EveHQ today and I'm still confused....

[Abaddon, L4]

8x Mega Pulse Laser II (Conflagration L)

Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I (Cap Booster 800)
2x Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range)
Sensor Booster II (Scan Resolution)

3x Heat Sink II
Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
2x Armor Explosive Hardener II

2x Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I

Tank: 410 DPS Damage: 930DPS


[Paladin, L4]

4x Tachyon Beam Laser II (Gleam L)
2x Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I

3x Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range)

2x Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
3x Imperial Navy Heat Sink

2x Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

Tank: 325DPS Damage: 710DPS

I got it that in a paladin I can salvage while clearing, but will this worth a drop in damage/tank?



Stop eft warrioring. There is something called applied damage. There is also something called comparing apples to apples. Pulse will always put out more dps on paper. Tachs will generally have more range. Tachs will put out more applied damage at longer ranges due to being able to use MutliFrequency over scorch at those ranges.

The choice on using Mega Pulse over Tachs comes down to knowing the mission before you go there. Compare pulse Paladin to pulse and compare it to abaddon.
Kahldor
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-12-05 14:57:55 UTC
Alexander Leviathan wrote:
Worked a bit with EveHQ today and I'm still confused....

[Abaddon, L4]

8x Mega Pulse Laser II (Conflagration L)

Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I (Cap Booster 800)
2x Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range)
Sensor Booster II (Scan Resolution)

3x Heat Sink II
Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
2x Armor Explosive Hardener II

2x Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Energy Discharge Elutriation I

Tank: 410 DPS Damage: 930DPS


[Paladin, L4]

4x Tachyon Beam Laser II (Gleam L)
2x Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I

3x Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range)

2x Armor Explosive Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
3x Imperial Navy Heat Sink

2x Large Capacitor Control Circuit II

Tank: 325DPS Damage: 710DPS

I got it that in a paladin I can salvage while clearing, but will this worth a drop in damage/tank?


For the paladin and pretty much all amarr ships you want to missions against Em/Therm weak enemies (sansha/bloods/drones/mercs). The last thing you want to do is fight guristas and angels. That being said the fit above is ok just switch the ammo to Imperial Navy MF, use active hardeners EM/Therm (unless you are fighting drones), and put tracking scripts in the TCs. That should give you around 650DPS tank and ~900 guns only DPS with decent skills and if you are worried about the tank think about adding a nanobot accelerator rig or getting an A-type repper.

People will claim pulses are better at applying damage but I have yet to find a mission where tachs fail to kill rats before they get within 40km. And you won't have to spend ISK for scorch every 1000 shots. Incursions are a different story as rats orbit around 20km with very high transversal. But I really don't like running incursions in a paladin as it is harder/expensive to get the resists high enough.
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#14 - 2011-12-07 11:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
Biggest advantage of the Paladin over the Abbadon is the cap.
With the Abbadon you will ALLWAYS have cap problems even if you just fire your guns. The Paladin does not have this problem. In addition 53 opti isn't realy comfortable.

That's why I allways prefared this ship over the Abbadon before I got my Paladin

[Apocalypse Navy Issue]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L

Large Energy Locus Coordinator I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

818 turret DPS with Conflag
(just) 584 turrets DPS with Scorch BUT at 80 opti + 13 falloff ... max lock range is 84.38 ;)
cap stable with all activ !!

If you want to lock faster (which will speed up your killing much more then additional DPS at some point) remove one CapRecharger and put in a Sensor Booster.

PS: 442 defens against 75/25 em/therm sansash with this Hardeners.

PPS: wonder why I get this high defens?
Abbadon 7 low with 5% resi/level -> 25% max
Navy Apoc 8 low with Ener Adaptive -> 25% all resis ;)

PPPS: and just forgot ...
You will run in BIG problem with an Pulse Abbadon as soon as you run into TD heavy missions.
No perma rep becouse of cap problems AND no damage as they disrupt you down to 10km opti.

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-12-07 12:18:22 UTC
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Paladin's really aren't worth it, especially now with a noctis. Just use an abaddon and bring a noctis for salvage.


This.

Also, there is another option - Nightmare if you have skills for it.
It's much better on missions then Paladin or Abaddon.
It has tank and gank.

I've flown all marauders and I have lot of experience on missions.
So if you can fly more then just one race you better choose another ship.
Marauders from best to worst:
Vargur -> Golem -> Kronos ---> Paldin.
And the fastest mission runner is Mach.

The sad thing about lasers you can't choose the damage type. So if you get a mission with Guristas or Angels it will be a huge pain in the a$$. Any non-Amarr ship will complete it 2x or 3x times faster.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
Alexander Leviathan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2011-12-07 12:37:32 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Biggest advantage of the Paladin over the Abbadon is the cap.
With the Abbadon you will ALLWAYS have cap problems even if you just fire your guns. The Paladin does not have this problem. In addition 53 opti isn't realy comfortable.

That's why I allways prefared this ship over the Abbadon before I got my Paladin


Thx for your help :) May I ask what setup do you use for Paladin?

Fix My Lasers wrote:
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Paladin's really aren't worth it, especially now with a noctis. Just use an abaddon and bring a noctis for salvage.


This.

Also, there is another option - Nightmare if you have skills for it.
It's much better on missions then Paladin or Abaddon.
It has tank and gank.

I've flown all marauders and I have lot of experience on missions.
So if you can fly more then just one race you better choose another ship.
Marauders from best to worst:
Vargur -> Golem -> Kronos ---> Paldin.
And the fastest mission runner is Mach.

The sad thing about lasers you can't choose the damage type. So if you get a mission with Guristas or Angels it will be a huge pain in the a$$. Any non-Amarr ship will complete it 2x or 3x times faster.


Atm I'm skilled for Amarr only, but I'm thinking about moving to other races. I'd like to try Golem but my missile skills are 0 atm so it'll take longer then Vargur or Kronos. I'm however sad to read that Paladin is the worst on marauders :(
Btw Nightmare will beat marauders too at missoning? If so, how? Thx^^
Fix My Lasers
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-12-07 12:48:41 UTC
Alexander Leviathan wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Biggest advantage of the Paladin over the Abbadon is the cap.
With the Abbadon you will ALLWAYS have cap problems even if you just fire your guns. The Paladin does not have this problem. In addition 53 opti isn't realy comfortable.

That's why I allways prefared this ship over the Abbadon before I got my Paladin


Thx for your help :) May I ask what setup do you use for Paladin?

Fix My Lasers wrote:
Desmios Sanguis wrote:
Paladin's really aren't worth it, especially now with a noctis. Just use an abaddon and bring a noctis for salvage.


This.

Also, there is another option - Nightmare if you have skills for it.
It's much better on missions then Paladin or Abaddon.
It has tank and gank.

I've flown all marauders and I have lot of experience on missions.
So if you can fly more then just one race you better choose another ship.
Marauders from best to worst:
Vargur -> Golem -> Kronos ---> Paldin.
And the fastest mission runner is Mach.

The sad thing about lasers you can't choose the damage type. So if you get a mission with Guristas or Angels it will be a huge pain in the a$$. Any non-Amarr ship will complete it 2x or 3x times faster.


Atm I'm skilled for Amarr only, but I'm thinking about moving to other races. I'd like to try Golem but my missile skills are 0 atm so it'll take longer then Vargur or Kronos. I'm however sad to read that Paladin is the worst on marauders :(
Btw Nightmare will beat marauders too at missoning? If so, how? Thx^^


You can get 4 Heat Sinks and one Tracking Enhancer. Plus if you use Pulses you can even mount 2 Tracking computers and run optimal scrips. Your range will be like ~21+19 whith Multifrequency.
With Scorch around 51+15.
The DPS will be huge on almost every distance.
The coolest thing about Nightmare with all of that you tanking will be very good.

Bring back Blaze and Lux crystals! http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12812-Blaze-L-details.html http://eve.battleclinic.com/item/i12832-Lux-L-details.html
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#18 - 2011-12-07 16:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
Alexander Leviathan wrote:

Thx for your help :) May I ask what setup do you use for Paladin?

1 Imperial Amarr repper (needed as you have fitting probs without)
3 heat sinks (the damage you get out of a 4th isn't worth it)
Damage Control (I allways use it on ANY PvE ship I fly)
2 active hardeners depend on mission

4 Tachions T2 (just becouse of T2 amo so much better)
If your tracking skill isn't that great Mega Beams do work too!! Tachions don't work without tracking skill 4, better 5 equal what other will tell you. It's just a pain as you don't even hit Battle Cruser then.

AB
Tracking comp
either 2* cap recharg or if you feel comfortable Gallente faction Web (12km, overheat 15km I belive)

CCC rigs
or if you prefare one faster rep, one better rep rig ... but then you aren't confortable with cap anymore. I'd take the CCC over rep rigs.


The faction repper is a must becouse of fitting, the rest is fine with T2, the faction web is nice to have.
If you have the money get 3 Imperial Navy Heat Sinks ;).


PS: against Angels and Mercs remove Beams + tracking Comp and use Mega Puls + web. Works much better :).

PPS: in general I would aim for around 350+ spezific defens and around 3 to 5 mins cap when playing with EFT. Cap stable isn't needed, more defens is just needed in very view cases (like AE bonus stage). For the other Missions it's much more important to KNOW what to shot first then to have a mega tank.

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!