These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Get Rid of Learning Implants?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-06-09 10:20:28 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


sure, let's keep a system that actively discourages people from generating content.
i don't really care, to be honest.

when it comes to new players learning implants look like this; "get sp slowly" or "don't pvp". neither of those are interesting choices to new players, or older players.

I've said many times that if my pod/implants etc didn't cost many times more than what cheap frigates cost, i'd gladly go and lose cheap frigates just for the fun of it. however losing a pod worth 10 or 20 times your ship's value isn't fun or interesting, or in any way encouraging me to go and generate content.
an hour of earning isk for a handful of frigs that'll give me hours of fun is a good trade.
hours of earning isk to replace 1 pod just gives me hours of tedious grinding and isn't a good trade.


The only person that stops someone generatong content is the player themself, either by choosing not to or by making choices that then discourage them from doing so.

I could have saved up and used all my isk to buy +5's months ago but what benefit would I have had? In that same time I've used that isk to build business and exploration ships that allow me to plex 2 and shortly 3 alts. Putting the isk into implants to get into ships/careers more rapidly is a false economy, use +3's or +4's in the meantime and have fun whilst waiting...
Dave Stark
#22 - 2014-06-09 10:36:31 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
The only person that stops someone generatong content is the player themself, either by choosing not to or by making choices that then discourage them from doing so.


yes, it's a player choice.

however, is the fact that players are forced to pick between character advancement and content creation a good choice to put in front of players?

I don't think it is. there's no trade off here, you're just picking a different way to get penalized. that's not an interesting or meaningful choice.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#23 - 2014-06-09 10:44:49 UTC
oohthey ioh wrote:
I like the learning implants, like some said risk/reward,
you still can pvp with plus 5 in, just always warp your pod out . I haven't been podded for a long time.

Ever seen a sabre or a devoter?

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-06-09 10:45:36 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
The only person that stops someone generatong content is the player themself, either by choosing not to or by making choices that then discourage them from doing so.


yes, it's a player choice.

however, is the fact that players are forced to pick between character advancement and content creation a good choice to put in front of players?

I don't think it is. there's no trade off here, you're just picking a different way to get penalized. that's not an interesting or meaningful choice.


It is a choice between *slightly slower* SP gain and doing something else more fun. And it is only that choice if the player makes it that choice. Putting +5's on a clone doesn't trigger some code limitation that stops said clone from undocking as far as I know.

It is about compromise as everything is in Eve. A player will always need to compromise something somewhere
Dave Stark
#25 - 2014-06-09 10:54:56 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
The only person that stops someone generatong content is the player themself, either by choosing not to or by making choices that then discourage them from doing so.


yes, it's a player choice.

however, is the fact that players are forced to pick between character advancement and content creation a good choice to put in front of players?

I don't think it is. there's no trade off here, you're just picking a different way to get penalized. that's not an interesting or meaningful choice.


It is a choice between *slightly slower* SP gain and doing something else more fun. And it is only that choice if the player makes it that choice. Putting +5's on a clone doesn't trigger some code limitation that stops said clone from undocking as far as I know.

It is about compromise as everything is in Eve. A player will always need to compromise something somewhere


slightly slower? i'm looking at a x1 skill, rank V. the difference between them based on my remap is over a day's training. that's on a x1 skill.
it's not *slightly slower*, it's substantial. when you're looking at skills that aren't x1, the gap is wider.

the thing is, pvp in eve isn't the only thing that's fun. having more sp allows you to do more things in eve; doing a myriad of things rather than 1 thing is also why this isn't an interesting or meaningful choice. you just end up with people who say "i love that 1 thing, bugger the rest" or people who say "i'm not willing to do that 1 thing, it's not worth the detriment to everything else" it creates a large divide that i don't think benefits the game in any way. unless you have an army of alts, but requiring an army of alts is hardly a drawing point for new players. "come and enjoy eve, but only if you make 5 accounts"

there's no compromise here. compromise is what hardwirings are. learning implants just impose an awkward penalty.
I just think that the pros and cons of any choice in eve should be contained to the activity you're considering. eg remaps, train your gunnery skills faster, at the expense of speed for core skills. that's interesting and meaningful for example. however something like "training skills faster means your ship flies slower" isn't meaningful or make very much sense....

anyway i'm starting to ramble and i have to do things not in front of the computer.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-06-09 11:15:02 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

slightly slower? i'm looking at a x1 skill, rank V. the difference between them based on my remap is over a day's training. that's on a x1 skill.
it's not *slightly slower*, it's substantial. when you're looking at skills that aren't x1, the gap is wider.

the thing is, pvp in eve isn't the only thing that's fun. having more sp allows you to do more things in eve; doing a myriad of things rather than 1 thing is also why this isn't an interesting or meaningful choice. you just end up with people who say "i love that 1 thing, bugger the rest" or people who say "i'm not willing to do that 1 thing, it's not worth the detriment to everything else" it creates a large divide that i don't think benefits the game in any way. unless you have an army of alts, but requiring an army of alts is hardly a drawing point for new players. "come and enjoy eve, but only if you make 5 accounts"

there's no compromise here. compromise is what hardwirings are. learning implants just impose an awkward penalty.
I just think that the pros and cons of any choice in eve should be contained to the activity you're considering. eg remaps, train your gunnery skills faster, at the expense of speed for core skills. that's interesting and meaningful for example. however something like "training skills faster means your ship flies slower" isn't meaningful or make very much sense....

anyway i'm starting to ramble and i have to do things not in front of the computer.


I can only quote my own experience but I mine everything, run combat anoms down to losec, manufacture, do PI, T2 invention and exploration. It's an 8 month old char and has never had more than +3 implant. I certainly don't feel that I have been constrained in any way by only using +3's and enjoy being able to compete with others in multiple areas of the game.
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#27 - 2014-06-09 12:12:29 UTC
Maybe flying with +5s is good as it adds drama to getting podded. Add more meaning mindless pvp. Don't give up after blowing up... Still gota get your pod out?

Is that my two cents or yours?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-06-09 12:14:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Solhild wrote:
Learning implants, attribute remapping, clone costs could all do with being looked at. When risk/reward stops people from casually engaging with the game then we have a problem.


They will find another reason to not PvP.



for the 100th time....this.

Oh they use hardwires...can't lose them.

They use drugs (in game...hell maybe out of game too...one cat I flew with played much better stoned than not tbh)...can't do that.


Can't afford the faction mods...faction ammo....pirate ships
I have seen many reasons to not pvp given basically.


I went to 0.0 very low sp. I did +3's for a year and made out good all in all. Basic fleet ships gotten. Year 2 was side stuff like t2 and such. I made out much better doing this. Many things in pvp are learned by doing. Badly at first lol. get your noobtard deaths in early, learn from them, move on. Skill level 5 does not fix noobtard. Noobtard is not even sp based. Its not hard to spot bought chars in 0.0 sometimes. They'd be the 80 million sp player who is fitting and flying like ass.
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#29 - 2014-06-09 13:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Althalus Stenory
AFAIK, the only goal of learning implants are to be an ISK sink, and because of this sink, they might never be removed from the game :)

I don't think the problem is pvp, pve, +1 +2 or even +5 when we deal about learning implants. I don't care losing a set of +4 implants if I need to PVE, i'll just buy the 2 I need if I'm short of money.

No, the "real" problem is the same as we had with learning skills : they are just items that allow people to learn skills easier, but they add nothing in the game in terms of game play like hardwiring or pirate implants. Oh well, they do something, they give people more SP/hours, nothing exciting but useful, i admit it.

But the way the game is, we have to plug learning implants with at least +3 if we don't want to be penalized compared to friends / other players. .

This is the reason why they could/should be removed.

But if we remove them, should we simply add "+5" to all stat (non remapable), or nothing ?

I'd say, we should add nothing if we remove the implants, or 3-4 at most. Why ?
That's simple : I don't think that half of the eve population even use +5 implants... most people use +4 or even +3 when they tend to be podded too much :p

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI
Torsnk
Mustang Capital
#30 - 2014-06-09 13:14:11 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
People who PVP more often than you High sec hider use +3s instead, if at all. They are cheap and still offer good training bonuses and don't deter people from PVPing, who actually want to PVP. For all the others we have Jump clones, which you can change every 20 hours (the respective skill at IV). That allows you to PVP in a adequate PVP clone, then jump to your better learning clone, and come back next evening for another 4 hours of PVP at the exact same time. Rinse and repeat. Henceforth, I don't see any problems with learning implants.

-1


Going from +5's to +3's results in the loss of 3 skill points per minute. That's 3,600 skill points in a 20 hour clone jump period. This equates to 1 hour and 20 minutes of skill training lost for every jump clone activation (assuming that you could have been training at 45 skill points/min in your +5 clone). That's also assuming that you hit the "JUMP" button exactly at 20 hours and no more (which is unlikely). In many instances you may have to wait a few more hours to line up with your IRL schedule which eats more into your training time.

The player is given a few choices:

1. Fly PvP with +5 implants. In null, with the effect of bubbles, this means many times if you lose your ship you are also going to lose your pod. If you are flying a subcapital ship (which most players do) this is really not worth it. (i.e. if you lose an interceptor worth 55 mil you are also likely to lose 200 mil or more worth of implants which don't help you in combat). This is a very odd tradeoff that doesn't incentivize PvP (or any sort of in-game activity really).

2. Choose to lose 1 hour and 20 minutes of character advancement to play the game and undock (assuming going from +5's down to +3's [it's worse if they don't use implants]). Why punish players' character advancement for actually engaging in the game?

I understand that risk vs. reward is an important aspect of the game (as is choice). However, I don't feel that this choice set really enhances the game in any meaningful way.

I remember learning skills. They forced players to make a choice as well. However, that choice was lame and didn't add anything. I feel that learning implants are in the same bucket.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#31 - 2014-06-09 13:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Dave Stark wrote:

sure, let's keep a system that actively discourages people from generating content.
i don't really care, to be honest.

when it comes to new players learning implants look like this; "get sp slowly" or "don't pvp". neither of those are interesting choices to new players, or older players.


I cannot say that my 4 +3s discourage me from PVPing. I sure get angry and frustrated about my own mistakes when I lose my pod, but they don't discourage me from PVPing.*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2014-06-09 13:30:09 UTC
Personally I found +5s not worth it as I need to use them for a year, and not be podded the whole time to make back the cost (price relative to when I did it, no longer applicable in some regions)

But I do have high grade implants (and stupidly ripped out instead of jc, because I wasnt thinking)(Live, learn, repeat) now
So it is worth it to me at the prices

But yes op I agree, learning implants should be folded into the base case
Given that they are an obvious yes, a significant to all people use them, and you can clearly be called diminutive to your intellectual capability names for not using them
They need serious looking

Also because there are plenty of other implants that would be fun, but are too situational to reliably compete with the learners
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#33 - 2014-06-09 13:31:36 UTC
Torsnk wrote:
The player is given a few choices:

1. Fly PvP with +5 implants. In null, with the effect of bubbles, this means many times if you lose your ship you are also going to lose your pod. If you are flying a subcapital ship (which most players do) this is really not worth it. (i.e. if you lose an interceptor worth 55 mil you are also likely to lose 200 mil or more worth of implants which don't help you in combat). This is a very odd tradeoff that doesn't incentivize PvP (or any sort of in-game activity really).

2. Choose to lose 1 hour and 20 minutes of character advancement to play the game and undock (assuming going from +5's down to +3's [it's worse if they don't use implants]). Why punish players' character advancement for actually engaging in the game?

I understand that risk vs. reward is an important aspect of the game (as is choice). However, I don't feel that this choice set really enhances the game in any meaningful way.

I remember learning skills. They forced players to make a choice as well. However, that choice was lame and didn't add anything. I feel that learning implants are in the same bucket.


That is your choice. I have never wanted to train faster than with the +3, that is absolutely sufficient training time. I certainly have a clone with +4s, which I use only when I am away from EVE for a prolonged time and cannot do anything anyways. For the rest of the time, I do not see any point at all in using +5s. If people do use them and then don't want to play PVP, it is their personal fault, not the game's, because they made a poor choice.

No advancement is punished, you just need to tone down your expectations. +3 implant speed is absolutely acceptable training speed with a minimum requirement in effort and ISK investment, the same happened back then in the Learning Skill days: Most people never trained the skills beyond 3, because it is absolutely enough. People also need to remember the EVE motto #1: Only fly what you can afford to lose.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-06-09 13:47:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaijin Lanis
Dave Stark wrote:
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Difference between +4 and +5 imps is totally neglectable. If someone's perfectionism hold him from PvP activities, why we should change the game?


because it creates content and learning implants are one of the dumbest things in eve.
the concept of implants is great, but when it's a choice between "sp or doing something" most people pick SP because skills already take long enough to train without foregoing implants in the same way everyone spent ages training learning skills before they could train anything so that they were able to play the game.


The reason learning skills were bad is because they were a barrier to entry to a barrier to entry. The way things are set now, implants are less of a barrier to entry and more of a means by which to spend ISK to reduce learning times and gain other bonuses.

Dave Stark wrote:
slightly slower? i'm looking at a x1 skill, rank V. the difference between them based on my remap is over a day's training. that's on a x1 skill.

We're talking about the difference between +5 and +4/+3. Not +5 and no implants. 1.5-3 additional skill points a minute is pretty damned close to "slightly slower." Not to mention it takes 62.5 days of training for +4 implants to pay off the SP invested in their requirements versus +3. 292.7 days for +5 versus +4. But, thankfully, learning implants aren't the only implants. It's to the point they're basically gravy on top of the benefits granted by hardwires and Tech 2 implants.

To say, training cybernetics 5 JUST for learning implants is pretty dumb, yo. So, basically, the OP is whining about the game being less playable as a result of his own failures to properly understand the game. In which case, nerf stupidity! Down with stupidity! Stupidity is ruining the game!

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-06-09 14:13:26 UTC
tl;dr: Mags is right (as usual). If you're not undocking because of your implants, you wouldn't have undocked without them.

FWIW, I always fly with a set of +3's in my head (except for Cha - Cha sucks, never learn Cha). I have a straightup max learning clone that is locked in a station in highsec, but the only time I ever use it is if I'm going to be gone from the game for more than a couple of days due to work or family stuff.

The only character that I have ever sprung for +5s for is the one I am currently training to fly supers.

Typically, my hardwirings are worth a lot more than the learning implants, so the cost of them is meh.

I see the learning implants as an investment in my character's development. But if they hinder my ability to have fun in a game I am paying for, what's the point? So I make the call on a level of risk that is acceptable to me, and I go out and have fun.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-06-09 14:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ray Kyonhe
Dave Stark wrote:

because it creates content and learning implants are one of the dumbest things in eve.
the concept of implants is great, but when it's a choice between "sp or doing something" most people pick SP

This is mindset similar to "If I haven't perfected this ship I won't undock it and will whine on forums instead about how harsh Eve to newcomers and how long you have to wait to pilot the ship you want".

I say it again: such perfectionism won't do you any good, get rid of it. As someone above already said, difference between +4 and +5 for some V lv skill barely equals to 5 days. FIVE. DAYS. In Eve it's simply nothing. You train some skill 90-180 days, and still can't wait additional 5? I can't see a problem here. And there is a clonjump here, so in fact you won't lose even those 5 days as you will be out of your learning clone for not so long.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-06-09 14:19:25 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

because it creates content and learning implants are one of the dumbest things in eve.
the concept of implants is great, but when it's a choice between "sp or doing something" most people pick SP

This is mindset similar to "If I haven't perfected this ship I won't undock it and will whine on forums instead about how harsh Eve to newcomers and how long you have to wait to pilot the ship you want".

I say it again: such perfectionism won't do you any good, get rid of it. As someone above already said, difference between +4 and +5 for some V lv skill barely equals to 5 days. FIVE. DAYS. In Eve it's simply nothing. You train some skill 90-180 days, and still can't wait additional 5? I can't see a problem here. And there is a clonjump here, so in fact you won't lose even those 5 days as you will be out of your learning clone for not so long.


I just realized that the OP's post states he logs in once a week roughly...so this means by using +3's instead he'd only have to wait one actual login longer to use whichever level V skill is training. This is a complete false economy in terms of wanting the extra few SP above actually doing something. No skill that little bit earlier is worth hamstringing your gameplay for...
Torsnk
Mustang Capital
#38 - 2014-06-09 14:39:25 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
tl;dr: Mags is right (as usual). If you're not undocking because of your implants, you wouldn't have undocked without them.


Your statement is false. I log in, clone jump (to a +4 clone as opposed to the +5) THEN undock.
Conrad Makbure
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-06-09 14:47:06 UTC
Hell yes, but keep the mechanic. Have 10 hard wire slots, and roll the learning specs into the hardwire, like +1 to all attributes on top of the existing hard wire specs. Have it cap at +5 total.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#40 - 2014-06-09 14:50:25 UTC
Other people have said this, but the implants are not the problem here.

An attitude adjustment is required.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.