Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Like a lot of folks, I have a dedicated clone with +5 learning implants for every attribute. This clone is parked in a secure high-sec station and never undocks.

I consider myself a fairly casual player (I play only once or twice a week). When I do play, I jump to a clone with two +4 implants (int/mem currently as that is in accordance with my year long skill plan). During these periods, I spend the overwhelming majority of my time PvP'ing, and as such never risk the +5 implant clone by undocking. Once my time is up, I jump back to my +5 clone in a safe and secure station and log off.

This situation works alright for someone like me: I can afford to have an all +5 implant clone and I am a fairly casual player.

However, I really don't think it adds much to the game. It is detrimental to people who just generally want to actually play the game more often, as opposed to spending most of the time sitting in station soaking up the 45 Skill Points/minute.

As such, I am fundamentally against learning implants because they disincentivize players from undocking and engaging with other players. This is not good for the game.

Also: I understand the importance of risk vs. reward, and I feel strongly that other forms of implants should continue to exist (for combat boosts, mining boosts, etc.). The difference is those implants are useful when you actually undock and play. Learning implants are just as effective docked as they are undocked. As such, if they are expensive enough (in the case of +5s) they motivate people to remain docked and discontinue gameplay.

My proposed solution: Get rid of all learning implants and increase the base attribute points for all players from 17 to 22 (+5 across the board). We can still have neural remapping, because it rewards a well thought out plan. Removing the implants will encourage gameplay, generate more content, and will enrich the gaming experience.

They will find another reason to not PvP.

People who PVP more often than you High sec hider use +3s instead, if at all. They are cheap and still offer good training bonuses and don't deter people from PVPing, who actually want to PVP. For all the others we have Jump clones, which you can change every 20 hours (the respective skill at IV). That allows you to PVP in a adequate PVP clone, then jump to your better learning clone, and come back next evening for another 4 hours of PVP at the exact same time. Rinse and repeat. Henceforth, I don't see any problems with learning implants.

-1

Well, it could be argued that this is a situation that adds meaningful choice to the game via a very direct increased risk -> increased reward system. However it's worth arguing that this system doesn't necessarily increase the reward of PvPers as much as it could, given the strong benefits of pirate implants (it could be said that the difference affects industrialists and miners less, at least in the highsec setting, given the system of protection that may reduces the use of, say, nomad implants on a freighter flying character. It is more pertinent to them in areas of space with less security where every second spent aligning could mean death, however). This is admittedly a grey area though, depending on your point of view in regards to the effectiveness vs training time balance of implants. Moreover the fact that high grade pirate implants provide only a +4 to attributes instead of +5 would be indicative to me that CCP wants to maintain this system of training time opposed to combat effectiveness, at least to some degree.

All that said, I personally find myself agreeing with OP. I am of the opinion that the choice between profession effectiveness and training time is kind of a bad one. It's purely opinion, but I don't really like the fact that I have to take a loss in my progression by simply choosing to maximize my method of play (PvPing). I'm perfectly fine with keeping neural remaps in the game; as a meaningful choice IS added by planning your skill queue. Additionally worth noting is that the removal of learning implants wouldn't effect the ISK sink associated with the as people who would be flying with learning implants in their heads would simply be flying with pirate implants instead.

A final point worth mentioning is the actual value of attributes at all. Personally I think they add flavor to the game in the form of progression, but that's all they do. A more minimalist approach has been mentioned before in which some people simply argue that the attribute system doesn't really add anything to the game at all, and support the removal of said attributes entirely. And from a content standpoint (as opposed to flavor) I can agree with them. Honestly the entire system seems to be balancing progression versus efficiency in a given task, and that seems like a poor design choice. Min/Maxing a particular playstyle vs another is one thing, but being unable to progress your character "optimally" and maximize your ability in a given in-game profession is a bit punishing.

I like the learning implants, like some said risk/reward,
you still can pvp with plus 5 in, just always warp your pod out . I haven't been podded for a long time.

If the implants a player bought makes them choose between SP and do something I would say they bought the wrong implants...

the difference is, those other implants give you bonuses to things that aren't SP (i assume we're talking about things like slaves, snakes, crystals etc). I'd risk a 2bn isk clone, if it gave me an edge in combat, but you're damn sure i wouldn't if it didn't. that's the situation learning implants are in.

Well I just play to enjoy the game. If I cannot be bothered to change clones, I undock in my +5 set.

But I do think it's an excuse not to PvP. We now have reduced jump times and far more clones to choose from. If SP attainment rates are so important to these people, then why not have a mix of implants? 2 +5s and then others to boost combat?

I know there may be times when you cannot jump, but that's no fault of learning implants and still doesn't stop you PvPing.

The fact he asks for those 5 points to be added, tells me he's more concerned with SP than playing the game.
Therefore, he should ask for attributes to be removed completely and we should all train at the same speed. Sounds like a dream scenario. (Not really, it sounds horribly bland.)

I think you somewhat miss the point. The question isn't "Can people not wait that long?". It is more "Why should their activity make a difference at all in the character progressions speed?". On the one hand higher risk -> higher rewards is compatible with everything else in EVE. On the other hand implant losses are exclusively PvP losses, while the rewards are universal to all activities and even inactivity. The continued cost of this universal benefit is therefore paid almost exclusively by people doing PvP, while for others there is only a one time investment cost. It's not like you'd be making PvP a risk free no loss activity. You'd still have ships, modules, rigs and implants to make your wallet weep.

As for people would come up with other reasons not to PvP -argument. That is true, but it's like saying the game should never be improved, because people always find new things to complain about. Efforts on this front will never get everyone to PvP. They'll just get more people to PvP and get existing PvPers to do it more often. The general point is to increase the attractiveness of the activity by providing benefits and removing disadvantages for engaging in it. It allows players to get more PvP per unit of time spend on making money. Also, character development is so important for some players, that it's their main reason to play games. You don't have to like this or give it priority, but it's the reality of things that has to be taken in to account. It's therefore quite reasonable to ask: Does it make sense to pile these negatives on PvP, when getting players to continuously engage in it is a vital component to the health of the entire game? Personally I don't think the current system is broken. I just think there's a lot of room for improvement.

I haven't missed the point here, I just question why someone would not undock because of something and if that is the case then that something is wrong for them. If not learning implants then it would be say...officer mods. Fit them to a ship and you become a gank magnet...better not undock that ship.

Learning implants do not increase SP speed that much per point so why worry so much about SP? Your character still progresses just a little slower. SP in themselves do not matter that much beyond giving access to the next ship/module which can probably wait the extra week or so anyway. Learning implants are a choice and the level of implant is a further choice. I would not want these real choices along with real risks removed from the game personally.