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Get Rid of Learning Implants?

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Author
Torsnk
Mustang Capital
#1 - 2014-06-09 04:20:49 UTC
Like a lot of folks, I have a dedicated clone with +5 learning implants for every attribute. This clone is parked in a secure high-sec station and never undocks.

I consider myself a fairly casual player (I play only once or twice a week). When I do play, I jump to a clone with two +4 implants (int/mem currently as that is in accordance with my year long skill plan). During these periods, I spend the overwhelming majority of my time PvP'ing, and as such never risk the +5 implant clone by undocking. Once my time is up, I jump back to my +5 clone in a safe and secure station and log off.

This situation works alright for someone like me: I can afford to have an all +5 implant clone and I am a fairly casual player.

However, I really don't think it adds much to the game. It is detrimental to people who just generally want to actually play the game more often, as opposed to spending most of the time sitting in station soaking up the 45 Skill Points/minute.

As such, I am fundamentally against learning implants because they disincentivize players from undocking and engaging with other players. This is not good for the game.

Also: I understand the importance of risk vs. reward, and I feel strongly that other forms of implants should continue to exist (for combat boosts, mining boosts, etc.). The difference is those implants are useful when you actually undock and play. Learning implants are just as effective docked as they are undocked. As such, if they are expensive enough (in the case of +5s) they motivate people to remain docked and discontinue gameplay.

My proposed solution: Get rid of all learning implants and increase the base attribute points for all players from 17 to 22 (+5 across the board). We can still have neural remapping, because it rewards a well thought out plan. Removing the implants will encourage gameplay, generate more content, and will enrich the gaming experience.
Solhild
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-06-09 04:41:14 UTC
Learning implants, attribute remapping, clone costs could all do with being looked at. When risk/reward stops people from casually engaging with the game then we have a problem.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3 - 2014-06-09 04:49:31 UTC
Solhild wrote:
Learning implants, attribute remapping, clone costs could all do with being looked at. When risk/reward stops people from casually engaging with the game then we have a problem.


They will find another reason to not PvP.
Xeator
soldiers.fi
#4 - 2014-06-09 04:57:57 UTC
I dont know why they couldnt just go with +5 stats on all high grade pirate implants. That way, if you wanted full training capability with the added set bonuses, you could do so.

Now, as it stands, the +5 implants still have an edge over hg pirates. Things like learning skills or learning implants bring nothing to the game. They are only a hindrance.

And as Solhild pointed out remaps and clones in general should be looked at as well.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#5 - 2014-06-09 06:50:03 UTC
People who PVP more often than you High sec hider use +3s instead, if at all. They are cheap and still offer good training bonuses and don't deter people from PVPing, who actually want to PVP. For all the others we have Jump clones, which you can change every 20 hours (the respective skill at IV). That allows you to PVP in a adequate PVP clone, then jump to your better learning clone, and come back next evening for another 4 hours of PVP at the exact same time. Rinse and repeat. Henceforth, I don't see any problems with learning implants.

-1

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-06-09 07:25:28 UTC
Difference between +4 and +5 imps is totally neglectable. If someone's perfectionism hold him from PvP activities, why we should change the game?

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-06-09 08:07:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gigan Amilupar
Well, it could be argued that this is a situation that adds meaningful choice to the game via a very direct increased risk -> increased reward system. However it's worth arguing that this system doesn't necessarily increase the reward of PvPers as much as it could, given the strong benefits of pirate implants (it could be said that the difference affects industrialists and miners less, at least in the highsec setting, given the system of protection that may reduces the use of, say, nomad implants on a freighter flying character. It is more pertinent to them in areas of space with less security where every second spent aligning could mean death, however). This is admittedly a grey area though, depending on your point of view in regards to the effectiveness vs training time balance of implants. Moreover the fact that high grade pirate implants provide only a +4 to attributes instead of +5 would be indicative to me that CCP wants to maintain this system of training time opposed to combat effectiveness, at least to some degree.

All that said, I personally find myself agreeing with OP. I am of the opinion that the choice between profession effectiveness and training time is kind of a bad one. It's purely opinion, but I don't really like the fact that I have to take a loss in my progression by simply choosing to maximize my method of play (PvPing). I'm perfectly fine with keeping neural remaps in the game; as a meaningful choice IS added by planning your skill queue. Additionally worth noting is that the removal of learning implants wouldn't effect the ISK sink associated with the as people who would be flying with learning implants in their heads would simply be flying with pirate implants instead.

A final point worth mentioning is the actual value of attributes at all. Personally I think they add flavor to the game in the form of progression, but that's all they do. A more minimalist approach has been mentioned before in which some people simply argue that the attribute system doesn't really add anything to the game at all, and support the removal of said attributes entirely. And from a content standpoint (as opposed to flavor) I can agree with them. Honestly the entire system seems to be balancing progression versus efficiency in a given task, and that seems like a poor design choice. Min/Maxing a particular playstyle vs another is one thing, but being unable to progress your character "optimally" and maximize your ability in a given in-game profession is a bit punishing.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-06-09 08:19:13 UTC
Implants stopping someone from undocking is a bad reason to not fly in my opinion. They would find another reason if implants were removed (probably a new nerf ganking thread). +5's cut the learning time on a level 5 skill (from start to finish) by about 5 days or so. Can people not wait that long whilst running their current business/missions? I like the system and believe it is fine as it is. Siply have a little more patience in your +3/+4's or buy the +5's and accept the risk...

Note: I am not a rich player, I'm happy with the +3's I have, and though I could afford +4's I usually find something better in S&I to invest my isk in.
oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-06-09 08:23:39 UTC
I like the learning implants, like some said risk/reward,
you still can pvp with plus 5 in, just always warp your pod out . I haven't been podded for a long time.
Dave Stark
#10 - 2014-06-09 08:29:50 UTC
Ray Kyonhe wrote:
Difference between +4 and +5 imps is totally neglectable. If someone's perfectionism hold him from PvP activities, why we should change the game?


because it creates content and learning implants are one of the dumbest things in eve.
the concept of implants is great, but when it's a choice between "sp or doing something" most people pick SP because skills already take long enough to train without foregoing implants in the same way everyone spent ages training learning skills before they could train anything so that they were able to play the game.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-06-09 08:53:09 UTC
If the implants a player bought makes them choose between SP and do something I would say they bought the wrong implants...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#12 - 2014-06-09 09:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
My +5 set is by far the cheapest set I have. I have PvP'd in it and they have never stopped me undocking.

We now have access to a far larger pool of clones. You don't even need to put in 5, just the two that you are mapped for, if training speed is that important to you.

As Baltic said, there will always be an excuse for not PvPing. But the fact of the matter is, the one stopping you is you.

It's also rather funny that you expect to get those 5 points added. You'd be far more honest, in asking for attributes to be removed.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Dave Stark
#13 - 2014-06-09 09:13:23 UTC
Mag's wrote:
My +5 set is by far the cheapest set I have. I have PvP'd in it and they have never stopped me undocking.

We now have access to a far larger pool of clones. You don't even need to put in 5, just the two that you are mapped for, if training speed is that important to you.

As Baltic said, there will always be an excuse for not PvPing. But the fact of the matter is, the one stopping you is you.


the difference is, those other implants give you bonuses to things that aren't SP (i assume we're talking about things like slaves, snakes, crystals etc). I'd risk a 2bn isk clone, if it gave me an edge in combat, but you're damn sure i wouldn't if it didn't. that's the situation learning implants are in.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-06-09 09:16:05 UTC
I believe that basic learning implants should be made much more expensive, and that a cheaper version of illegal training implants should be available from pirate LP stores--implants that can't be flown through highsec without the risk of having CONCORD remove them.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Mag's
Azn Empire
#15 - 2014-06-09 09:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Dave Stark wrote:
Mag's wrote:
My +5 set is by far the cheapest set I have. I have PvP'd in it and they have never stopped me undocking.

We now have access to a far larger pool of clones. You don't even need to put in 5, just the two that you are mapped for, if training speed is that important to you.

As Baltic said, there will always be an excuse for not PvPing. But the fact of the matter is, the one stopping you is you.


the difference is, those other implants give you bonuses to things that aren't SP (i assume we're talking about things like slaves, snakes, crystals etc). I'd risk a 2bn isk clone, if it gave me an edge in combat, but you're damn sure i wouldn't if it didn't. that's the situation learning implants are in.
Well I just play to enjoy the game. If I cannot be bothered to change clones, I undock in my +5 set.

But I do think it's an excuse not to PvP. We now have reduced jump times and far more clones to choose from. If SP attainment rates are so important to these people, then why not have a mix of implants? 2 +5s and then others to boost combat?

I know there may be times when you cannot jump, but that's no fault of learning implants and still doesn't stop you PvPing.

The fact he asks for those 5 points to be added, tells me he's more concerned with SP than playing the game.
Therefore, he should ask for attributes to be removed completely and we should all train at the same speed. Sounds like a dream scenario. (Not really, it sounds horribly bland.)

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-06-09 09:21:12 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I believe that basic learning implants should be made much more expensive, and that a cheaper version of illegal training implants should be available from pirate LP stores--implants that can't be flown through highsec without the risk of having CONCORD remove them.


I'd be opposed to that to be honest as I think something as basic as learning implants should be available to all in all areas if they are willing to risk them, I don't believe that other pirate implants are removed if you enter hisec are they?
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-06-09 09:43:36 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Implants stopping someone from undocking is a bad reason to not fly in my opinion. They would find another reason if implants were removed (probably a new nerf ganking thread). +5's cut the learning time on a level 5 skill (from start to finish) by about 5 days or so. Can people not wait that long whilst running their current business/missions? I like the system and believe it is fine as it is. Siply have a little more patience in your +3/+4's or buy the +5's and accept the risk...

Note: I am not a rich player, I'm happy with the +3's I have, and though I could afford +4's I usually find something better in S&I to invest my isk in.

I think you somewhat miss the point. The question isn't "Can people not wait that long?". It is more "Why should their activity make a difference at all in the character progressions speed?". On the one hand higher risk -> higher rewards is compatible with everything else in EVE. On the other hand implant losses are exclusively PvP losses, while the rewards are universal to all activities and even inactivity. The continued cost of this universal benefit is therefore paid almost exclusively by people doing PvP, while for others there is only a one time investment cost. It's not like you'd be making PvP a risk free no loss activity. You'd still have ships, modules, rigs and implants to make your wallet weep.

As for people would come up with other reasons not to PvP -argument. That is true, but it's like saying the game should never be improved, because people always find new things to complain about. Efforts on this front will never get everyone to PvP. They'll just get more people to PvP and get existing PvPers to do it more often. The general point is to increase the attractiveness of the activity by providing benefits and removing disadvantages for engaging in it. It allows players to get more PvP per unit of time spend on making money. Also, character development is so important for some players, that it's their main reason to play games. You don't have to like this or give it priority, but it's the reality of things that has to be taken in to account. It's therefore quite reasonable to ask: Does it make sense to pile these negatives on PvP, when getting players to continuously engage in it is a vital component to the health of the entire game? Personally I don't think the current system is broken. I just think there's a lot of room for improvement.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-06-09 10:07:53 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I think something as basic as learning implants should be available to all in all areas if they are willing to risk them
Having them in highsec isn't risking them. My proposal allows people to have safe implants, but makes the risked ones cheaper to encourage people to be willing to try risking them.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-06-09 10:08:04 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
...my stuff...followed by your stuff...


I haven't missed the point here, I just question why someone would not undock because of something and if that is the case then that something is wrong for them. If not learning implants then it would be say...officer mods. Fit them to a ship and you become a gank magnet...better not undock that ship.

Learning implants do not increase SP speed that much per point so why worry so much about SP? Your character still progresses just a little slower. SP in themselves do not matter that much beyond giving access to the next ship/module which can probably wait the extra week or so anyway. Learning implants are a choice and the level of implant is a further choice. I would not want these real choices along with real risks removed from the game personally.
Dave Stark
#20 - 2014-06-09 10:15:32 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Mag's wrote:
My +5 set is by far the cheapest set I have. I have PvP'd in it and they have never stopped me undocking.

We now have access to a far larger pool of clones. You don't even need to put in 5, just the two that you are mapped for, if training speed is that important to you.

As Baltic said, there will always be an excuse for not PvPing. But the fact of the matter is, the one stopping you is you.


the difference is, those other implants give you bonuses to things that aren't SP (i assume we're talking about things like slaves, snakes, crystals etc). I'd risk a 2bn isk clone, if it gave me an edge in combat, but you're damn sure i wouldn't if it didn't. that's the situation learning implants are in.
Well I just play to enjoy the game. If I cannot be bothered to change clones, I undock in my +5 set.

But I do think it's an excuse not to PvP. We now have reduced jump times and far more clones to choose from. If SP attainment rates are so important to these people, then why not have a mix of implants? 2 +5s and then others to boost combat?

I know there may be times when you cannot jump, but that's no fault of learning implants and still doesn't stop you PvPing.

The fact he asks for those 5 points to be added, tells me he's more concerned with SP than playing the game.
Therefore, he should ask for attributes to be removed completely and we should all train at the same speed. Sounds like a dream scenario. (Not really, it sounds horribly bland.)


sure, let's keep a system that actively discourages people from generating content.
i don't really care, to be honest.

when it comes to new players learning implants look like this; "get sp slowly" or "don't pvp". neither of those are interesting choices to new players, or older players.

I've said many times that if my pod/implants etc didn't cost many times more than what cheap frigates cost, i'd gladly go and lose cheap frigates just for the fun of it. however losing a pod worth 10 or 20 times your ship's value isn't fun or interesting, or in any way encouraging me to go and generate content.
an hour of earning isk for a handful of frigs that'll give me hours of fun is a good trade.
hours of earning isk to replace 1 pod just gives me hours of tedious grinding and isn't a good trade.
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