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The Flagship the Guristas deserve

Author
Iain Cariaba
#21 - 2014-06-07 19:22:51 UTC
What I'm wondering is why none of you whining about the supposed nerf now ever bothered to log onto sisi and test the changes you knew were coming?

I knew what was going to happen to the rattlesnake, and sold mine pre-patch, because I took 20 minutes to throw one together on the test server and test it.

None of this was a surprise, and you've already had months to whine about this pre-patch.

The failure is your own, not this change.
Catalytic morphisis
Space Mutts
Space-Mutts
#22 - 2014-06-07 19:24:09 UTC
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Doesn't need lights or mediums as you can now fit any size of missiles and have pretty good DPS. You know you can replace those lights with around 400 DPS of RLML now, right? Even so, you can carry them if you really want unbonused drones to supplement your missile damage. Even without bonuses they're still doing 66% of the damage, so combined with the missiles you're doing fantastic damage.

No drone control range was lost. You can still use that high as a utility if you want to. Nobody's forcing you. Sure, you lose 20% of your missile DPS, but that's a choice you have to make.

With regards to losing a larger chunk of damage if a drone is destroyed or recalled, it's a good thing those things now have almost double the EHP. They'll either live twice as long, or you can recall them after twice as much time.

As for the missile velocity bonus, so long and good riddance. The missile damage before was pathetic, and the range was unnecessary. Now the range is still ridiculously long on Cruises, and you can choose any missile type and do good damage. Win-win.

Really, I'm not seeing much/any nerf except for the lost small drone potential, which is made up for with a rack of LML's.

Even drone assist was buffed. Now you can assign literally a wing's worth of bonused Geckos to a pilot and unleash hell with 137.5 effective Geckos that each have almost 26k EHP, or you can assign half a wing of Sentries and deal damage equivalent to a whole wings worth of assigned Domi Sentries.

This^

Without level 5 Skills, A Gecko has 22k RAW HP. Ogres are around 19 ish, and sentry's at 15ish. This is with T2 Drones, not the faction ones that are much tankier. With resists they are pretty much as tanky as a nanocane. And you can use the faction varients, And even put a drone durabilty rig on their. it is STUPID to primary the drones of a snake


Time to construct my Drone army now that I can have 5 small bastards each with the tank of a nanocane!

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er

Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#23 - 2014-06-07 19:27:43 UTC
Catalytic morphisis wrote:
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:

This^

Without level 5 Skills, A Gecko has 22k RAW HP. Ogres are around 19 ish, and sentry's at 15ish. This is with T2 Drones, not the faction ones that are much tankier. With resists they are pretty much as tanky as a nanocane. And you can use the faction varients, And even put a drone durabilty rig on their. it is STUPID to primary the drones of a snake


Time to construct my Drone army now that I can have 5 small bastards each with the tank of a nanocane!

And more DPS. Those each have over 700 DPS. 770 with 3 DDA's.
Systemlord Rah
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-06-07 20:25:22 UTC
i would rather use 5 drones or more withe the same dps then 2 powerhouses
and i know its better for the server but i dont care about that if the ship dosnt feel right anymore
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2014-06-07 20:30:52 UTC
Systemlord Rah wrote:
i would rather use 5 drones or more withe the same dps then 2 powerhouses
and i know its better for the server but i dont care about that if the ship dosnt feel right anymore


This is basically what the entire argument regarding the rattlesnake changes boils down to in the end. Also why CCP stopped paying attention to the pirate battleship rebalance thread.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#26 - 2014-06-08 10:08:17 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

See, the mistake you're making is caring about PvE balance. PvE balance is secondary to PvP balance...

... The Velocity bonus was pretty much worthless for PvP. They only applied on Cruises and Torps, and thanks to the (sorta) recent Cruise buff nobody used Torps so it was completely unnecessary what with Cruises having >150km range. Besides, the launchers weren't damage bonused so most people didn't bother with them/used smaller launchers in PvP. The range issues of RHML's and other launchers are nonexistent if you're shooting a target you have tackled, and are easily fixed by moving if someone else has the target tackled.


Yes and yes, I totally agree, that any game with the tiniest PvP content needs to be designed and balanced for PvP and then PvE content is adjusted to those values. And it is said issue that destroys a game and alienates the player base when some shiny PvE content is presented with some added PvP for long term playability thrown in - never works.

On the other hand, we are not really talking PvP balance here, we are talking role adjustment and feature changes for a certain ship. And the expectations for the role the ship type promised from previous experience and and its faction type were not met. Balance towards PvP and minor adjustments for PvE come later. The issue is, the main feature sucks and is not on par with the reputation of the Guristas.

And regarding missile velocity, if it had no impact on PvP, why not keep it for PvE, seems to me you mistake 'PvP over PvE' with 'If its not use to me you can't have it either'...

Iain Cariaba wrote:
What I'm wondering is why none of you whining about the supposed nerf now ever bothered to log onto sisi and test the changes you knew were coming?

I knew what was going to happen to the rattlesnake, and sold mine pre-patch, because I took 20 minutes to throw one together on the test server and test it.

None of this was a surprise, and you've already had months to whine about this pre-patch.

The failure is your own, not this change.


And you did check we didn't do that ? You are certain ? Again .. assumptions ...

... maybe we observed, maybe we raged, maybe discussed, maybe suggested ... maybe the features was set in stone and the developers stopped listening 2 months before release already .. and maybe, just maybe we are still unsatisfied and want to be heard and considered ...
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#27 - 2014-06-08 10:23:19 UTC
Systemlord Rah wrote:
i would rather use 5 drones or more withe the same dps then 2 powerhouses
and i know its better for the server but i dont care about that if the ship dosnt feel right anymore


Yes, yes, ... Cutting the drones down to less then half for a Battleship never seemed right and I was told the argument about server load was never an issue in regards to the 'Hero Drone' feature. Concerning the servers, a change like this doesn't make sense anyway, to cut the number of active drones down for the 3 least popular and used drone ships isn't where I would ahve started.

But to keep this a suggestion thread, here is something I would have loved to see:

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
+ 1 active Drone
Caldari Battleship Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus:
-50% bonus from Drone Damage Amplifiers
(drone effectiveness with 3 DDAs and 5 drones is about 12.5, with this change it would be 13.0, a slight buff)

And also, adding missile damage to the Gallente part is like spitting in Gallentes face, yes, gallente have superior missile weapon systems ... NOT. You can easily see that development on the Ratter has stopped dead a while ago and wasn't given further thought Evil .The traits should have looked like this:

Gallente Battleship Bonus:
60% bonus to heavy and sentry drone damage and hitpoints (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)
Caldari Battleship Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 50% bonus to Cruise missile and Torpedo max velocity)

Same effect, different story (well, not the same, I sneaked in a tiny 5% bonus to get to a basic 8.0 effectiveness over just keeping the old 7.5).

Need to run to work ... discuss you laterzzz.....

Cheers
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-06-08 14:10:56 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:


Gallente Battleship Bonus:
60% bonus to heavy and sentry drone damage and hitpoints (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)
Caldari Battleship Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 50% bonus to Cruise missile and Torpedo max velocity)


They considered doing this, and decided not to because the enormous difference between 4 and 5 would basically require anyone flying the ship to have the respective gallente ship class skill to lvl 5.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#29 - 2014-06-08 14:15:27 UTC
Joe Boirele wrote:
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:


Gallente Battleship Bonus:
60% bonus to heavy and sentry drone damage and hitpoints (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)
Caldari Battleship Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 50% bonus to Cruise missile and Torpedo max velocity)


They considered doing this, and decided not to because the enormous difference between 4 and 5 would basically require anyone flying the ship to have the respective gallente ship class skill to lvl 5.


And it's fairly punishing in regards to skillcap anyway, even without that.

The drone bonus being the role bonus helps lower skillpoint players getting into the ship.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#30 - 2014-06-08 15:54:12 UTC
Rattles + 0.0 Anoms + Thanatos = Awesome.
Maybe so awesome it will see a nerf incoming.
Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#31 - 2014-06-08 23:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Joe Boirele wrote:
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:


Gallente Battleship Bonus:
60% bonus to heavy and sentry drone damage and hitpoints (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)
Caldari Battleship Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 50% bonus to Cruise missile and Torpedo max velocity)


They considered doing this, and decided not to because the enormous difference between 4 and 5 would basically require anyone flying the ship to have the respective Gallente ship class skill to lvl 5.


Well,if that's true, then its quite silly and someone just lost respect from me.

At level 4 drone effectiveness is 6.8 under the new rule and was 7 under the old one, not much of any difference. And can you mention any ship weapon bonus that gives you the full bonus by just unlocking the ship type ? And I don't mean something like the 100% bonus damage for half the high slots (as balance) like with the Bhaalgorn.


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


And it's fairly punishing in regards to skillcap anyway, even without that.

The drone bonus being the role bonus helps lower skillpoint players getting into the ship.


Now that's just laughable. For the values just see above.

Not to mention that by Malcanis' Law the advantage for any new player looking for a Rattlesnake is negligible compared to the advantaged more experienced and richer players will get.
With just one skill point into the BS which takes about 20 minutes you will get the full bonus to the main weapon system - 6 neuts and max drone damage with almost no skill point investment surely nothing for a cheap (time) ganker alt with a big budget. And not to forget that with the drone changes not training those skills properly has even less an impact now.

On a more personal note, after 5 weeks of playing I looked for a ship that would fit my style, the Ratter, after the time to be able to sit in it, I could afford it ISK wise. And then I trained Gallente BS to 5 for the maximum damage bonus, that alone took 32 days total. I planned it, it was worth it, I did it gladly. Hearing these lame excuses to get ppl into a ship they are not supposed to fly in that fashion that early is just like spitting in players faces that put thought and effort in how they want to progress and commit.

'Making a ship popular by cutting down training time and boost appealing values just for sheet dps is a good way to ruin that ship type'



None has yet addressed the cuts regarding drones on a primary drone boat, all I hear is more 'shut up, because more dps'. Can anyone please comment on the negative changes for the drone role and judge it on its own merits and not use strawman arguments like drones got better, didn't need it anyway and missiles super duper°°?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#32 - 2014-06-08 23:52:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:


Now that's just laughable. For the values just see above.

Not to mention that by Malcanis' Law the advantage for any new player looking for a Rattlesnake is negligible compared to the advantaged more experienced and richer players will get.


Uh, no. It's the same 275% that everyone who can sit in that boat gets.

Your idea is the one that runs afoul of Malcanis' Law, as it works exclusively to the advantage of older players, and would only be changed because the faction bonuses rub you the wrong way.


Quote:

None has yet addressed the cuts regarding drones on a primary drone boat, all I hear is more 'shut up, because more dps'. Can anyone please comment on the negative changes for the drone role and judge it on its own merits and not use strawman arguments like drones got better, didn't need it anyway and missiles super duper°°?


Because, since it's missiles scale all the way down to each and every missile size, having bonused light or medium drones would turn this ship into a lawnmower against anything smaller than a battleship. Even worse than the current Gila already is for that matter.

And those arguments you attempt to disqualify are not strawman arguments. They are solid, which is why you're trying to disqualify them in the first place.

Furthermore, the drone weapon system is, for all intents and purposes, pretty well overpowered. It is capless, immune to ewar, and can deliver each damage type, among other handy benefits. The only drawbacks are (for some anyway) travel time and being destructible.

And the super drone bonus goes a very long way to mitigating the second of those weaknesses. That cannot come at no cost.

The cost for the missiles and the super drones is the ability to field bonused light and medium drones.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#33 - 2014-06-09 00:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Uh, no. It's the same 275% that everyone who can sit in that boat gets.

Your idea is the one that runs afoul of Malcanis' Law, as it works exclusively to the advantage of older players, and would only be changed because the faction bonuses rub you the wrong way.


Not true, Malcanis' Law does not exclude a benefit to new players that benefit usually just disappears in compaprison with what Veterans will be able to do with the same change.

And no, the bonuses don't rub me the wrong way, they are wrong, by lore, by role and implementation.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Because, since it's missiles scale all the way down to each and every missile size, having bonused light or medium drones would turn this ship into a lawnmower against anything smaller than a battleship. Even worse than the current Gila already is for that matter.


Well, that is a valid argument in regards to PvP balance, but has nothing to do with the criticism in regards with the drone role changes on its own. And I did not either agree with those changes in the first place.
On the other hand, like with a previous argument, you could have used all the other launchers before too. Just because nobody did it is not a fault of the Rattlesnake. And the bonus is 50% to 30% of the dps for 2 of 4 damage types, hardly turns a laughably useless and unpopular ship (by players and devs alike commented on) in the overpower class you make it to be.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And those arguments you attempt to disqualify are not strawman arguments. They are solid, which is why you're trying to disqualify them in the first place.

Furthermore, the drone weapon system is, for all intents and purposes, pretty well overpowered. It is capless, immune to ewar, and can deliver each damage type, among other handy benefits. The only drawbacks are (for some anyway) travel time and being destructible.

And the super drone bonus goes a very long way to mitigating the second of those weaknesses. That cannot come at no cost.

The cost for the missiles and the super drones is the ability to field bonused light and medium drones.


Well, it is a strawman argument when you say the cuts to drones don't matter because they got buffed in the same patch. It would not be a strawman if all ships with drone bonuses would get cuts, none did, most 'touched' ships actually got more bandwidth and new bonuses they did not have before, which also negates the 'because of server' argument.
Saying a cut doesn't matter because it was of no use to a particular group, I consider even an argument from ignorance.
It feels strange, that most of the yay sayers commit one fallacy after another.

I don't mind being wrong and appreciate being called out when I am (already learned a few things I didn't know or had considered since I started this thread). But I get disappointed when people just talk past the issue or make assumptions because they are prejudiced towards any complaining post.

First of all I like to find and define the role of the Rattlesnake (in this case) and then discuss the balance issues. To argue from balance points and then see what is left and slap it on the ship - just because of what was left, is exactly how the jumbled bonuses look like that we got now.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#34 - 2014-06-09 00:31:21 UTC
Look, here is the best way I can explain it.

Firstly, about the lore. We do not define the lore, CCP does. There was a justification for it in the thread, and that's pretty much the final word on it. That has little to do with the ship itself in any real way, to be perfectly honest, so can we just abandon that one?

Secondly, gimme a minute to reply to the rest in another post, I have to go kill my cat for knocking over my lamp.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#35 - 2014-06-09 00:36:59 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:

First of all I like to find and define the role of the Rattlesnake (in this case) and then discuss the balance issues. To argue from balance points and then see what is left and slap it on the ship - just because of what was left, is exactly how the jumbled bonuses look like that we got now.


I would say that it's role is that of an adaptable combined weapons platform. It's fairly similar in that regard to the Typhoon Fleet Issue.

Can we discuss the ship and it's merits on that statement?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#36 - 2014-06-09 01:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Sure, I ll give you time ... and don´t kill the cat .. mine is just calling em to bed - so ll be off soon.

I was looking at the Typhoon just now to find a replacement for the Rattlesnake so I am a bit familiar with it, though I have never flown it. But what it boils down to for me is what I expect the Rattlesnake to be as a dual weapon platform and what I experienced from it in the past. Both aligned with what the lore tells us about the role, the lore in regards to the story/background, as well as the ingame lore in regards to the value sources. Now that this has changed and been brought out of alignment, I´d like to address that - and I am doing that here I think.

What I see in the Rattlesnake in this case is a Pirate Faction Drone Boat with Missile support. There is the primary and there is the secondary role.Calling a ship necessary of change in form of a buff does not mean for me reducing the primary trait and boosting the secondary, if both were considered weak and none overpowered. I don't mind a shift in power in general, but when the main is the only representative of its kind in the Pirate Faction group and part of that role and bonus feature of the main related faction, I do mind - and I voice it.

There are also many other traits or features which could have been implemented and especially to 'break the rules' for the Guristas faction. I could have seen something like an armor repair bonus from the gallente side,a s a complete turnaround, a shift from shield resist bonus to armor resist from Gallente and the missile bonus to the Caldari side. well I wouldn't have minded. There would have been other drone trait changes possible besides the 'hero drone' concept, doubling the drone numbers would have been one many would gank to see ,). and only after those decisions have been made can we talk about values and PvP balance, before that those arguments are just mute.

Otherwise its just calling numbers and effect radius, splat some labels for skills/mods on it and find a name for the role/type - that's not how a class is designed or created.

And on a side note, the average market value has dropped by 70-80 million now, the second time after the goons dropped all their years worth of stock of BPCs on the market, which means its not artificially created inflation, its buyers dissatisfaction. And I do hope those will find their way into the forum as well.
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-06-09 01:38:00 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Sure, I ll give you time ... and don´t kill the cat .. mine is just calling em to bed - so ll be off soon.

I was looking at the Typhoon just now to find a replacement for the Rattlesnake so I am a bit familiar with it, though I have never flown it. But what it boils down to for me is what I expect the Rattlesnake to be as a dual weapon platform and what I experienced from it in the past. Both aligned with what the lore tells us about the role, the lore in regards to the story/background, as well as the ingame lore in regards to the value sources. Now that this has changed and been brought out of alignment, I´d like to address that - and I am doing that here I think.

What I see in the Rattlesnake in this case is a Pirate Faction Drone Boat with Missile support. There is the primary and there is the secondary role.Calling a ship necessary of change in form of a buff does not mean for me reducing the primary trait and boosting the secondary, if both were considered weak and none overpowered. I don't mind a shift in power in general, but when the main is the only representative of its kind in the Pirate Faction group and part of that role and bonus feature of the main related faction, I do mind - and I voice it.

There are also many other traits or features which could have been implemented and especially to 'break the rules' for the Guristas faction. I could have seen something like an armor repair bonus from the gallente side,a s a complete turnaround, a shift from shield resist bonus to armor resist from Gallente and the missile bonus to the Caldari side. well I wouldn't have minded. There would have been other drone trait changes possible besides the 'hero drone' concept, doubling the drone numbers would have been one many would gank to see ,). and only after those decisions have been made can we talk about values and PvP balance, before that those arguments are just mute.

Otherwise its just calling numbers and effect radius, splat some labels for skills/mods on it and find a name for the role/type - that's not how a class is designed or created.

And on a side note, the average market value has dropped by 70-80 million now, the second time after the goons dropped all their years worth of stock of BPCs on the market, which means its not artificially created inflation, its buyers dissatisfaction. And I do hope those will find their way into the forum as well.

You may see it as a Drone boat with missile support. But in reality it is a Ship with 2 Primary weapon systems, Both have almost the exact same DPS.
As for the double drone idea, Thats how ALL droneboats use to work. CCP changed it to the current method because it caused to much strain on the server and was all around a rather stupid idea.
Catalytic morphisis
Space Mutts
Space-Mutts
#38 - 2014-06-09 01:48:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Catalytic morphisis
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Sure, I ll give you time ... and don´t kill the cat .. mine is just calling em to bed - so ll be off soon.

I was looking at the Typhoon just now to find a replacement for the Rattlesnake so I am a bit familiar with it, though I have never flown it. But what it boils down to for me is what I expect the Rattlesnake to be as a dual weapon platform and what I experienced from it in the past. Both aligned with what the lore tells us about the role, the lore in regards to the story/background, as well as the ingame lore in regards to the value sources. Now that this has changed and been brought out of alignment, I´d like to address that - and I am doing that here I think.

What I see in the Rattlesnake in this case is a Pirate Faction Drone Boat with Missile support. There is the primary and there is the secondary role.Calling a ship necessary of change in form of a buff does not mean for me reducing the primary trait and boosting the secondary, if both were considered weak and none overpowered. I don't mind a shift in power in general, but when the main is the only representative of its kind in the Pirate Faction group and part of that role and bonus feature of the main related faction, I do mind - and I voice it.

There are also many other traits or features which could have been implemented and especially to 'break the rules' for the Guristas faction. I could have seen something like an armor repair bonus from the gallente side,a s a complete turnaround, a shift from shield resist bonus to armor resist from Gallente and the missile bonus to the Caldari side. well I wouldn't have minded. There would have been other drone trait changes possible besides the 'hero drone' concept, doubling the drone numbers would have been one many would gank to see ,). and only after those decisions have been made can we talk about values and PvP balance, before that those arguments are just mute.

Otherwise its just calling numbers and effect radius, splat some labels for skills/mods on it and find a name for the role/type - that's not how a class is designed or created.

And on a side note, the average market value has dropped by 70-80 million now, the second time after the goons dropped all their years worth of stock of BPCs on the market, which means its not artificially created inflation, its buyers dissatisfaction. And I do hope those will find their way into the forum as well.


Firstly, Literally nobody except you gives a **** about its bonus' not matching up to lore, so please stop harping on about it we've had enough of you barking up that tree.

Secondly, This ship is a Dual weapon system which is now more balanced for PvP, The aspect which matters most when balancing ships, if CCP were to balance ships for PvE, Which is a sideline aspect for many players, Then a lot of people would leave as the ships would just be ridiculous.

Third, if this ship is now so terrible as you claim it is, Then why don't you go and get a ship which works for you now rather than just complain over and over, Making the same, Pointless and personal arguments which are just things you personally don't like, I personally prefer this ship now as it had no real use before the changes, Other than mission running and having a godlike tank, But now you can actually use it in PvP situations which for many people is seen as a bonus

Fourth, With the now applied aspects this ship is not primarily a drone boat anymore, Its a Hybrid system entirely, Which I guess upsets you as you now have to do something in missions other than pull aggro then go cook dinner if you want to do missions in a respectful time. (By hybrid I mean uses 2x weapon systems, Not blasters)

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er

Fer'isam K'ahn
SAS Veterinarians
#39 - 2014-06-09 09:36:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Fer'isam K'ahn
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:

You may see it as a Drone boat with missile support. But in reality it is a Ship with 2 Primary weapon systems, Both have almost the exact same DPS.
As for the double drone idea, Thats how ALL droneboats use to work. CCP changed it to the current method because it caused to much strain on the server and was all around a rather stupid idea.


Well, it was both, now it maybe the latter, sure its a matter of preference, but we now have a primary missile system pirate battleship in the Bhargest and the Nestor can't really be called a dual weapon system or drone ship since none really works out, it has too little bandwidth or too little powergrid for either to excel and shine.

And I do know how the drone ships used to work, I might be a young player, but I do read up on things and inform myself (part of the reason why I am here, you learn way more arguing then nodding your head and following orders or popular opinion).
And in regards to this, they brought back the old vampire system for the Blood Raiders didn't they ?!

Catalytic morphisis wrote:
Firstly, Literally nobody except you gives a **** about its bonus' not matching up to lore, so please stop harping on about it we've had enough of you barking up that tree.

Secondly, This ship is a Dual weapon system which is now more balanced for PvP, The aspect which matters most when balancing ships, if CCP were to balance ships for PvE, Which is a sideline aspect for many players, Then a lot of people would leave as the ships would just be ridiculous.

Third, if this ship is now so terrible as you claim it is, Then why don't you go and get a ship which works for you now rather than just complain over and over, Making the same, Pointless and personal arguments which are just things you personally don't like, I personally prefer this ship now as it had no real use before the changes, Other than mission running and having a godlike tank, But now you can actually use it in PvP situations which for many people is seen as a bonus

Fourth, With the now applied aspects this ship is not primarily a drone boat anymore, Its a Hybrid system entirely, Which I guess upsets you as you now have to do something in missions other than pull aggro then go cook dinner if you want to do missions in a respectful time. (By hybrid I mean uses 2x weapon systems, Not blasters)


(1st) Well if you don't care, don't assume others don't care. I personally don't care about high numbers and look how many e-peen swingers are whipping their things around and praise every inch they get more no matter the cost.

(2nd) And you are still missing the point, balance comes after the definition and basic design concept, not before and is totally independent of the features/traits themselves: I can balance and fine tune anything for PvP, if you can't - sad for you, don't assume others can't or won't consider.

(3rd) Well I am, but its hard to find, it took me some time to find this and commit to it with training and ISK investment, don't think that's easy. If it would be that easy I might care less and might not put such an effort into it. I am flirting with my Bhaalgorn a bit more though, managed to get the same tank and damage output on it, just missing some range and tracking... but that's beside the point.
And strange it having no PvP application and showing up in Alliance tournaments and New Eden Open, Wormholes and other places ... again your opinion, though I won't disagree that it has more now and probably will be used more in said situations too. But again, that's an issue of the balance in the end, not the basic design in itself, you are still neglecting that.

(4th) Yes to the first, is kind of obvious ,)
Primary Hybrid - Vindicator
Primary Missile - Bhargest
Primary Projectile - Machariel
Primary Lasers - Nightmare
Primary Drones (Now supposedly a full weapon system) - none, great
Now its your turn to argue your way out of that. Solving the problem of drones being not balanced enough for PvP isn't solved by adding more missile applications - basically what the whole issue is about and that has nothing to do with end value fine tuning or balance or PvE preference.

Your eyes see, what your mind wants to see; and you like so many others are stuck with that. And that points right at your last words assuming afk missing running and without active play or management. Proper drone management takes way more effort then any other weapon system, you are stuck with an old misconception. Hitting F1 for grouped lasers, hybrids, projectiles or missiles after ctrl-click, wow, now that's advanced weapon management, how can I learn that ? I am still trying to use menus via right click to navigate my drones wasting so many clicks, I feel like a noob now°°

Not

Good Day
Catalytic morphisis
Space Mutts
Space-Mutts
#40 - 2014-06-09 09:43:49 UTC
Fer'isam K'ahn wrote:
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:

You may see it as a Drone boat with missile support. But in reality it is a Ship with 2 Primary weapon systems, Both have almost the exact same DPS.
As for the double drone idea, Thats how ALL droneboats use to work. CCP changed it to the current method because it caused to much strain on the server and was all around a rather stupid idea.


Well, it was both, now it maybe the latter, sure its a matter of preference, but we now have a primary missile system pirate battleship in the Bhargest and the Nestor can't really be called a dual weapon system or drone ship since none really works out, it has too little bandwidth or too little powergrid for either to excel and shine.

And I do know how the drone ships used to work, I might be a young player, but I do read up on things and inform myself (part of the reason why I am here, you learn way more arguing then nodding your head and following orders or popular opinion).
And in regards to this, they brought back the old vampire system for the Blood Raiders didn't they ?!

Catalytic morphisis wrote:
Firstly, Literally nobody except you gives a **** about its bonus' not matching up to lore, so please stop harping on about it we've had enough of you barking up that tree.

Secondly, This ship is a Dual weapon system which is now more balanced for PvP, The aspect which matters most when balancing ships, if CCP were to balance ships for PvE, Which is a sideline aspect for many players, Then a lot of people would leave as the ships would just be ridiculous.

Third, if this ship is now so terrible as you claim it is, Then why don't you go and get a ship which works for you now rather than just complain over and over, Making the same, Pointless and personal arguments which are just things you personally don't like, I personally prefer this ship now as it had no real use before the changes, Other than mission running and having a godlike tank, But now you can actually use it in PvP situations which for many people is seen as a bonus

Fourth, With the now applied aspects this ship is not primarily a drone boat anymore, Its a Hybrid system entirely, Which I guess upsets you as you now have to do something in missions other than pull aggro then go cook dinner if you want to do missions in a respectful time. (By hybrid I mean uses 2x weapon systems, Not blasters)


(1st) Well if you don't care, don't assume others don't care. I personally don't care about high numbers and look how many e-peen swingers are whipping their things around and praise every inch they get more no matter the cost.

(2nd) And you are still missing the point, balance comes after the definition and basic design concept, not before and is totally independent of the features/traits themselves: I can balance and fine tune anything for PvP, if you can't sad for you, don't assume others can't or won't consider.

(3rd) Well I am, but its hard to find, it took me some time to find this and commit to it with training and ISK investment, don't think that's easy. If it would be that easy I might care less and might not put such an effort into it. I am flirting with my Bhaalgorn a bit more though, managed to get the same tank and damage output on it, just missing some range and tracking... but that's beside the point.
And strange it having no PvP application and showing up in Alliance tournaments and New Eden Open, Wormholes and other places ... again your opinion, though I won't disagree that it has more now and probably will be used more in said situations too. But again, that's an issue of the balance in the end, not the basic design in itself, you are still neglecting that.

(4th) Yes to the first, is kind of obvious ,)
Primary Hybrid - Vindicator
Primary Missile - Bhargest
Primary Projectile - Machariel
Primary Lasers - Nightmare
Primary Drones (Now supposedly a full weapon system) - none, great
Now its your turn to argue your way out of that. Solving the problem of drones being not balanced enough for PvP isn't solved by adding more missile applications - basically what the whole issue is about and that has nothing to do with end value fine tuning or balance or PvE preference.

Your eyes see, what your mind wants to see; and you like so many others are stuck with that. And that points right at your last words assuming afk missing running and without active play or management. Proper drone management takes way more effort then any other weapon system you are stuck with an old misconception. Hitting F1 for grouped lasers, hybrids, projectiles or missiles after ctrl-click, wow, now that's advanced weapon management how can I learn that ? I am still trying to use menus via right click to navigate my drones wasting so many clicks, I feel like a noob now°°

Not

Good Day


If you honestly think that the alliance tournaments or New eden open are true representations of actual gang PvP then you are very much misinformed, You would never see the setups used in the alliance tournament actually be used in any real world scenario, Thats why you've seen ships that you don't see in PvP in there. The same if you think that PvP and weapons management is just Ctrl + Click + F1, There are many aspects which clearly your simple brain can't comprehend, Such as manual piloting, Taking advantage of angular/Transversal velocity to increase your weapon tracking on the enemy and range management, The only thing you really had to manage with drones was their HP but now they're tanky so that doesn't really matter. Drones are not difficult to use so please don't try to pull the wool over my eyes.

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er

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