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High sec GANKING
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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#181 - 2014-06-07 15:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

haulers who are "doing it right" take losses in the form of opportunity costs.
What do the gankers who "do it right" lose?


Yeah, turns out haulers have risk/reward ratios as well.

Working as intended.

Idk why you feel entitled to have that skewed more in your favor.


Either because Real Life or because WoW. Most shiptoasting in F&I is because Real Life or because WoW.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#182 - 2014-06-07 15:52:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

no.

the hauler's scout would accurately need to asses several ships.


Nope, just one of them. They all tend to be fit the same in order to easily calculate how many of them you need to kill somebody. It's pretty well doctrinal in that respect.


Quote:

And doesn't have a guarantee that as to which ships will attempt to gank and which will not.


You don't get a "guarantee" of anything in EVE. If you want guarantees, go play a themepark game.


You shouldnt have a guarantee. Not having a guarantee for an action, generally implies that you are not aware of many of the variables that will impact the results of said action.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#183 - 2014-06-07 15:55:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

haulers who are "doing it right" take losses in the form of opportunity costs.
What do the gankers who "do it right" lose?


Yeah, turns out haulers have risk/reward ratios as well.

Working as intended.

Idk why you feel entitled to have that skewed more in your favor.


lol the problem is not haulers....

Ganker are able to mitigate their risk beyond what haulers are capable of because they get way more useful info when doing a risk assessment.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#184 - 2014-06-07 15:57:34 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

lol the problem is not haulers....

Ganker are able to mitigate their risk beyond what haulers are capable of because they get way more useful info when doing a risk assessment.


They only get that info because they take the time to get it. You have the exact same information available to you.

So they have an advantage that they earned, and you didn't bother with. Working as intended.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#185 - 2014-06-07 16:02:26 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

no.

the hauler's scout would accurately need to asses several ships. And doesn't have a guarantee that as to which ships will attempt to gank and which will not.


We need to scan hundreds to thousands of ships before we find a target.
Red Thought
Forever Winter
#186 - 2014-06-07 16:05:33 UTC
When i first started playing in 2009, I was a market trader, and i would buy items in the Citadel and sell in Jita. I remember getting scanned with 400+ mil in the cargo hold of my mammoth, multiple times, and was never ganked. Not sure if i was just getting lucky or......
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#187 - 2014-06-07 16:07:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

no.

the hauler's scout would accurately need to asses several ships. And doesn't have a guarantee that as to which ships will attempt to gank and which will not.


We need to scan hundreds to thousands of ships before we find a target.


If you let one get past without scanning or dont like the target you scanned, you dont take a loss.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#188 - 2014-06-07 16:10:21 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

no.

the hauler's scout would accurately need to asses several ships. And doesn't have a guarantee that as to which ships will attempt to gank and which will not.


We need to scan hundreds to thousands of ships before we find a target.


If you let one get past without scanning or dont like the target you scanned, you dont take a loss.


We're you saying earlier how it's not fair that freighters eat an opportunity cost if they don't fly stuffed full of riches?

You do realize that opportunity costs include time, I hope.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#189 - 2014-06-07 16:12:33 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

no.

the hauler's scout would accurately need to asses several ships. And doesn't have a guarantee that as to which ships will attempt to gank and which will not.


We need to scan hundreds to thousands of ships before we find a target.


If you let one get past without scanning or dont like the target you scanned, you dont take a loss.


We're you saying earlier how it's not fair that freighters eat an opportunity cost if they don't fly stuffed full of riches?

You do realize that opportunity costs include time, I hope.


I should be more specific. You dont take a captial loss
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#190 - 2014-06-07 16:13:32 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

I should be more specific. You dont take a captial loss


And? You were the one talking about opportunity losses taken by the hauler if he doesn't fly with full cargo.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2014-06-07 16:15:07 UTC
Hisec is and as far as I know never was intended to be 100% safe. There should always be risk involved in anything in Eve, either collateral risk in terms of ships or liquid risk in terms of isk invested in transactions and deals. Hisec has some deterrents, but if you removed risk completely how would new players learn to avoid, mitigate or embrace risk as a given situation dictates?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#192 - 2014-06-07 16:18:41 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

no.

the hauler's scout would accurately need to asses several ships. And doesn't have a guarantee that as to which ships will attempt to gank and which will not.


We need to scan hundreds to thousands of ships before we find a target.


If you let one get past without scanning or dont like the target you scanned, you dont take a loss.


We also don't get paid.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#193 - 2014-06-07 16:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

I should be more specific. You dont take a captial loss


And? You were the one talking about opportunity losses taken by the hauler if he doesn't fly with full cargo.


This difference is that the hauler usually risks one or more of both of these types of losses. and has less info to go on when assessing risk
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#194 - 2014-06-07 16:23:23 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

no.

the hauler's scout would accurately need to asses several ships. And doesn't have a guarantee that as to which ships will attempt to gank and which will not.


We need to scan hundreds to thousands of ships before we find a target.


If you let one get past without scanning or dont like the target you scanned, you dont take a loss.


We also don't get paid.


because a wallet not increasing is not the same as a wallet decreasing.

If a freighter uses a scout and fails to identify a ganking fleet. The freighter pilot may have a killmail coming his way
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#195 - 2014-06-07 16:24:16 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

I should be more specific. You dont take a captial loss


And? You were the one talking about opportunity losses taken by the hauler if he doesn't fly with full cargo.


This difference is that the hauler usually risks one or more of both of these types of losses. and has less info to go on when assessing risk


No, he doesn't have less info. He makes the choice not to get more info.

His choices are his problem.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#196 - 2014-06-07 16:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

I should be more specific. You dont take a captial loss


And? You were the one talking about opportunity losses taken by the hauler if he doesn't fly with full cargo.


This difference is that the hauler usually risks one or more of both of these types of losses. and has less info to go on when assessing risk


No, he doesn't have less info. He makes the choice not to get more info.

His choices are his problem.


No.

the hauler cannot predetermine whether or not a haul attempt will be successful to the degree that a ganker can
the ganker has a pretty accurate assessment of whether or not the gank will be successful before it is attempted
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#197 - 2014-06-07 16:32:05 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

No.

the hauler cannot predetermine whether or not a haul attempt will be successful to the degree that a ganker can


Having been on both sides, I can assure you that, yes, the hauler can predetermine whether or not he gets ganked to a very fine degree.

And all it takes is the one click necessary to see how much he has in his cargo hold.

Nevermind that, if you want to use some *gasp* effort, you can assure it to an even finer degree.


Quote:

the ganker has a pretty accurate assessment of whether or not the gank will be successful before it is attempted


Only because the hauler has already made the choice of determining factors.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#198 - 2014-06-07 16:33:12 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:

because a wallet not increasing is not the same as a wallet decreasing.

If a freighter uses a scout and fails to identify a ganking fleet. The freighter pilot may have a killmail coming his way


And?

Why shouldn't they face the music if the scout fails to do their job well?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#199 - 2014-06-07 16:36:17 UTC
Oh, and here is the really effed up thing about this.

While the onus is on the hauler to make smart choices, and rightly so, ganking is such a rare event that even if you explicitly make the wrong choice, you are still more than likely to live anyway.

Flying with too much cargo is not punished anywhere nearly often enough.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#200 - 2014-06-07 16:43:19 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:

*sigh, i dont have a problem with the risk involved of hauling. As stated several times.

The issue is risk posed to ganking. They dont need to commit, they have enough information to make very accurate risk assessments. They handpick engagements, and their losses are usually in the form of opportunity cost.


haulers handpick their cargo, and their escorts.

sigh all u want, nerfing ganking just means even crapper rewards for haulers doing it right.

haulers who are "doing it right" take losses in the form of opportunity costs.
What do the gankers who "do it right" lose?


their ships, sec status, half the drop and 15 minutes of their time.
gankers doing it wrong dnt even get the other half of the drop. just so happens gankers put more effort into doing it right than haulers do.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs