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A message regarding reported layoffs at CCP

First post First post First post
Author
Prince Kobol
#201 - 2014-06-07 14:16:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Removed reply to deleted posts. ISD Ezwal.

Again I do worry for Eve, I think the next 12 months could be the most important ever for this game.

The last few months have seen a lot of amazing guys leave CCP, both voluntary and those who have been made redundant.

CCP Xhagen treatment is just.. well all I can say is wtf.

You do a Dev blog all about the guy and less then a month later you give him his cards, that is just a massive kick in the balls.

Also please do not try and say that you can lose this many talented people and that it will not effect Eve's development because that is pure bulls**t.

I have said it before that in my own opinion from what I have seen over the last few months flying around null that its quiet. Last night I spent a few hours flying on my alt looking for Ghost Sites around Wicked Creek, Insmother, Detorid and Immensea and I only came across one small group of guys.. that is it. This was during EU Prime time as well.

The PCU is on a downward trend, CCP not releasing subs figures which is something they usually do.

Again, EVE IS NOT DYING, but I would say it is stagnating.

I still believe that CCP is trying to juggle far too many projects and ultimately maybe there downfall.

Some are saying that the guardian's peace about WoD is your typical media crap and its a common thing in teh industry, no reason to get worried, however the fact that they spoke to Nick Blood (CCP Dropbear) who I remember as being a great dev and not somebody who has any obvious grudges to bear, his assessment was quite damming and somewhat worrying.
Deltarus Shadowflight
Alternate Factions
#202 - 2014-06-07 15:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Removed reply to deleted posts. ISD Ezwal.

Any how, this post is in regard to the start of this thread.

First off, I want to say I am in no way writing this in a back of or support of what has happened. I am simply putting this here to clarify my thoughts in regards to the situation CCP has brought about.

It is a real shame that all of this had to happen, it really is. It really did come down to a short sighted choice for CCP to take over White Wolf and the World of Darkness project. These two projects although under the same company, should never have been in contact with each other yet alone in the same working space. That aside, from a business end point they did what had to be done to keep EVE alive. They took on to much debt with that project and furthered the debt with R&D being sunk into Valkyrie and other new/current projects. I see a lot of slinging of speculation about the future and finance of CCP... How about doing what I did and using google for 10 minutes to be informed instead of guessing. A look at the CCP financial statement for time ending 31st Dec 2013 will show you what happened and why they made this choice. They technically went into the red last year due to $40,063,223 increase in R&D cost. Now given they had by this point dropped WoD, this in my opinion is down to them trying to find other avenues besides EVE for expansion. This brought about the Valkyrie project. I think CCP direction to spreading the EVE world into new avenues is smart move, unfortunately anyone not directly involved or ear marked for work on this needs to go. They have to payout 7% interest to there stakeholders on a semiannual bases. Along with their requirements to these stakeholders, if they drop cash flow in certain areas they can find themselves in some serious trouble. This does not mean the company is going to fold, just that they need to make sure they are in the black till the have higher cash flow coming in to put back into finishing current projects not generating cash. This in turn brought on the hiring of someone to increase cash driven sections to existing content, thus the NEX store and other services. You must remember, they need to finish what they have started but need that cash upfront. With WoD dropped, why would they keep the staff. Again, it sucks it happened but it needed to happen with the current business model.

Any way, like I said, this is just from what I have done with a little bit of research. I was worried that things where going slow for CCP and the media that does cover this stuff seems to like pointing readers in the wrong direction on speculation as well. Stop guessing and start reading. Stay informed and make decisions on that information, not the speculation of snippet information or others random flying comments.

Page 6
CCP Games Financial Statement Dec 31 2013

Page 43 in reference to obligation to stakeholders
update September 2013
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#203 - 2014-06-07 15:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Deltarus Shadowflight wrote:

Any way, like I said, this is just from what I have done with a little bit of research. I was worried that things where going slow for CCP and the media that does cover this stuff seems to like pointing readers in the wrong direction on speculation as well. Stop guessing and start reading. Stay informed and make decisions on that information, not the speculation of snippet information or others random flying comments.

Page 6
CCP Games Financial Statement Dec 31 2013

Page 43 in reference to obligation to stakeholders
update September 2013



I actually recommend page 5 on that one where CCP takes a 21m loss for the year.


The one you actually want is the six month financials that end in June. We then compare them to the same ones this year when they're released. That gives us our 'same period' comparison between this year and last.


You investor manual isn't actually that useful. The real numbers come from the year end paper, which is not as rosy.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#204 - 2014-06-07 15:33:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Prince Kobol wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
I'll take Hilmar over any other CEO in the MMO scene, anyday.

The MMO's out there are such complete money milking garbage people should build a statue for this man and we should thank him daily for not taking EVE into the gutter yet.

So things didn't work out for other games he tried, big F deal. Nothing ventured nothing gained. He could have easily sold out to the likes of EA and spent his millions on hookers and blow.


So you are saying that Hilmar has not tried to milk us, the players for more money... seriously?



Did I say that? No. Are you trying to put words into my mouth? Yes.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Deltarus Shadowflight
Alternate Factions
#205 - 2014-06-07 15:49:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Deltarus Shadowflight
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Deltarus Shadowflight wrote:

Any way, like I said, this is just from what I have done with a little bit of research. I was worried that things where going slow for CCP and the media that does cover this stuff seems to like pointing readers in the wrong direction on speculation as well. Stop guessing and start reading. Stay informed and make decisions on that information, not the speculation of snippet information or others random flying comments.

Page 6
CCP Games Financial Statement Dec 31 2013

Page 43 in reference to obligation to stakeholders
[url=http://www.ccpgames.com/media/47392/ccp%206%20month%20update%20september%2023%202013.pdf[/url]



I actually recommend page 5 on that one where CCP takes a 21m loss for the year.


The one you actually want is the six month financials that end in June. We then compare them to the same ones this year when they're released. That gives us our 'same period' comparison between this year and last.


You investor manual isn't actually that useful. The real numbers come from the year end paper, which is not as rosy.


If they hadn't added $40 million extra to that years budget for R&D they would have been $19 million in the black... as I said, they need to get cash coming in till they finish these projects.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#206 - 2014-06-07 15:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Deltarus Shadowflight wrote:


If they hadn't added $40 million extra to that years budget for R&D they would have been $19 million in the black... as I said, they need to get cash coming in till they finish these projects.


It' was not so much that as they're being overly optimistic about income growth. I suspect that they thought they'ed get more out of licensing to Tian City.

The problem is that all of this data explains the layoffs that had happened early in the year, logically losing enough people that predicted income would be greater than outlays. Since they suddenly let go a bunch right near the end of the 6 months, I suspect that income again fell short, possibly caused by a decline in subs. The last is just my theory, and we won't know for certain until the 6 month comes out.


*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.
Deltarus Shadowflight
Alternate Factions
#207 - 2014-06-07 16:24:38 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


It' was not so much that as they're being overly optimistic about income growth. I suspect that they thought they'ed get more out of licensing to Tian City.

The problem is that all of this data explains the layoffs that had happened early in the year, logically losing enough people that predicted income would be greater than outlays. Since they suddenly let go a bunch right near the end of the 6 months, I suspect that income again fell short, possibly caused by a decline in subs. The last is just my theory, and we won't know for certain until the 6 month comes out.



In that case, if you read a little bit more Smile....

Financial Report 2012
"EVE Online ended the year with approximately 490,000"

Financial Report 2013
"EVE Online celebrated its 10th anniversary in May and ended the year with over 500,000 subscribers"

The information is there, no one has to play guess/speculate game if you want to spend the time looking for officially released information. Admittedly, this doesn't prove they kept or paid for these subscription.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#208 - 2014-06-07 16:33:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

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On topic: A big thank you to those that lost their job for the time and energy you put into the job to make EvE a better game.
I feel sad to see you go and sincerely hope you find new rewarding jobs real soon. May your future be bright and wonderful!


Thread reopened.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#209 - 2014-06-07 20:20:42 UTC
Deltarus Shadowflight wrote:

In that case, if you read a little bit more Smile....

Financial Report 2012
"EVE Online ended the year with approximately 490,000"

Financial Report 2013
"EVE Online celebrated its 10th anniversary in May and ended the year with over 500,000 subscribers"

The information is there, no one has to play guess/speculate game if you want to spend the time looking for officially released information. Admittedly, this doesn't prove they kept or paid for these subscription.


What we'd need is the 2013 and 2014 information. Further, as the investor papers state, in 2013 they started also including the Chinese server subs with the sub count, even though CCP only gets the licensing fee from Tian City for those subs. So a 10k boost in subs is actually pretty lousy considering previously they didn't count an entire server.

Between 12 and 13 subs and in game sales did increase (by 8m dollars) and saleries for 'R&D' only increased by 6m dollars, with a net gain of about 50 people. So their 'R&D' losses mostly came from sources besides manpower.
Pine Marten
Doomheim
#210 - 2014-06-07 20:47:59 UTC
Im a little worried now. Not so much as to the layoff's but CCP having to start counting the subs on the chinese eve server to show an increase in subs.

Is eve dying?
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#211 - 2014-06-07 20:54:29 UTC
Pine Marten wrote:
Im a little worried now. Not so much as to the layoff's but CCP having to start counting the subs on the chinese eve server to show an increase in subs.

Is eve dying?


That has yet to be seen. A lot of pixels have been spilled on this subject, but 'dying' is, as of yet, a bit strong a word. I would say that it's growth has slowed and we may see a decline in subs. but even a drop does not equate 'dying'.
Prince Kobol
#212 - 2014-06-07 20:55:32 UTC
Pine Marten wrote:
Im a little worried now. Not so much as to the layoff's but CCP having to start counting the subs on the chinese eve server to show an increase in subs.

Is eve dying?


No, they are doing what every other company does and that is use every method they can to boost subs numbers.

As for the "Is Eve Dying" well it depends on your point of view.

If you take a look at http://eve-offline.net/ and look how the PCU is doing then some might say yes, other will say no, both sides giving many different reasons.

CCP sudden silence on how subs are doing might be taken as another indication all is not well, yet you could say that most companies do not give subs numbers so again no really information.

You could use your own judgement based on what you see in game, again this will differ from person to person.

My own view is that Eve is not dying but it is in a period of stagnation and that the loss of a lot of great devs can only harm the game.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#213 - 2014-06-07 22:15:25 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post.

The Rules:
26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#214 - 2014-06-07 22:32:15 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
It seems to me that CCPs problem - besides a couple of Mr Psssshhh clueless higher ups making decisions - is that they're being extremely scatterbrained. They get an idea, start pursuing it, but don't give it the time, effort and resources it really needs. If they want to try and make another cool game and not just be solely devoted to EVE, that's great, they should totally try and do that. But they need to do it smart.

Plan on making one new game, not two, or three, simultaneously. Put a lot of attention and resources and effort into this Other Game, and focus. Even now, after all these repeat failures, all the layoffs, etc, they're still splitting themselves in many other directions - valkyrie AND legion, as well the obvious continued EVE development. And it's going to end in tears. They simply don't have the resources, or the experience, to work on both those projects (and continue EVE) simultaneously and have them both be as good as they could be. One, or both of them, will flop, because the same mistakes are clearly being made yet again - pulling themselves in many different directions at once.

I'm concerned that other mistakes, which they've made in the past and are mentioned in the article, are likely going to be repeated too, such as chopping and changing teams, abruptly reducing the teams by pulling them back onto eve things, or in other directions, or Mr Pssshhhs standing there making it impossible for those new projects to even know what they're supposed to be doing.

Will any of us be surprised if valkyrie AND legion both end up as failures in one way or another? Will CCP, and will they learn from it?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#215 - 2014-06-07 22:50:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Bottom line is this:

CCP has two big problems, both that are driving away subs.

1. The attack on high sec, particularly the casual players, is intensifying. Crius is going to be a hammer blow to many.
2. Null sec is a stagnant mess, that is boring a whole bunch of null sec players to death, and they are leaving. If you look at seagull's flow charts, it is likely at least 12 months before any serious work is done on smashing null sec gridlock.

Both these issue smack of executives and / or high level game designers who are completely out of touch with the hobby of Eve.

The problem is that there is little evidence to support the notion that those are actually big problems or that they are driving away subs. The fact that they've actually delayed Crius to take player feedback into account and to do the exact opposite of what you're claiming, i.e. they're increasing the uses and dynamism of all space and providing more things to do for casual players, suggests that both your hypothesised cause and your assumed effect either false or not connected.

The first one in particular does not smack of “executives out of touch with the hobby of EVE”, but rather of a dreamed-up problem that is very obviously not connected to any kind of management or developer problems they might be having. Moreover, looking at the litany of long-time issues being addressed in Crius suggests that they are actually trying to reverse the decrease in PCUs as opposed to it being a cause for that decrease. The causality you're suggesting here doesn't really make much sense.

Hopefully, Crius will do what it is supposed to do and bring back enough numbers to let them avoid more these kinds of lay-offs in the future. Sov is still an issue, sure, but it's not really one of “gridlock”, nor is it one that is addressed by Seagull's plans. That one requires a different solution but again, Crius offers up some new dynamics that could help stem the tide.
Marsha Mallow
#216 - 2014-06-07 23:11:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Bottom line is this:

CCP has two big problems, both that are driving away subs.

1. The attack on high sec, particularly the casual players, is intensifying. Crius is going to be a hammer blow to many.
2. Null sec is a stagnant mess, that is boring a whole bunch of null sec players to death, and they are leaving. If you look at seagull's flow charts, it is likely at least 12 months before any serious work is done on smashing null sec gridlock.

Both these issue smack of executives and / or high level game designers who are completely out of touch with the hobby of Eve.

Hopefully, Crius will do what it is supposed to do and bring back enough numbers to let them avoid more these kinds of lay-offs in the future. Sov is still an issue, sure, but it's not really one of “gridlock”, nor is it one that is addressed by Seagull's plans. That one requires a different solution but again, Crius offers up some new dynamics that could help stem the tide.

Still, that's the first time I've seen him acknowledge just how bad nullsec is atm. I think attrition rates are higher there than people realise (a lot of corps are bloated beyond belief with unsubbed players). I'm cautiously optimistic that the development plan will address it but a bit worried it might be too late. Maybe they do need to add back in some 'jesus' features to spark periodic sub revivals, but if there are severe corporate problems I'm not sure how that can be done successfully.

Can't agree that Crius will cause a highsec apocalypse though, and all joking aside I'm not sure why anyone would genuinely want that demographic to go berserk and start quitting. The serious industrialists will adapt to the changes, that's why there's something like 500 pages of feedback on the Dev blog proposals. Smaller scale players who dabble in indy weren't that focused on profit/effiiciency in the first place. Making it slightly more difficult/less profitable isn't going to hurt them that much.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

ISquishWorms
#217 - 2014-06-07 23:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISquishWorms
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
It seems to me that CCPs problem - besides a couple of Mr Psssshhh clueless higher ups making decisions - is that they're being extremely scatterbrained. They get an idea, start pursuing it, but don't give it the time, effort and resources it really needs. If they want to try and make another cool game and not just be solely devoted to EVE, that's great, they should totally try and do that. But they need to do it smart.

Plan on making one new game, not two, or three, simultaneously. Put a lot of attention and resources and effort into this Other Game, and focus. Even now, after all these repeat failures, all the layoffs, etc, they're still splitting themselves in many other directions - valkyrie AND legion, as well the obvious continued EVE development. And it's going to end in tears. They simply don't have the resources, or the experience, to work on both those projects (and continue EVE) simultaneously and have them both be as good as they could be. One, or both of them, will flop, because the same mistakes are clearly being made yet again - pulling themselves in many different directions at once.

I'm concerned that other mistakes, which they've made in the past and are mentioned in the article, are likely going to be repeated too, such as chopping and changing teams, abruptly reducing the teams by pulling them back onto eve things, or in other directions, or Mr Pssshhhs standing their making it impossible for those new projects to even know what they're supposed to be doing.

Will any of us be surprised if valkyrie AND legion both end up as failures in one way or another? Will CCP, and will they learn from it?



I agree, sure work on other projects but not if that means your main souce of income product suffers.

‘No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh’.

Regnag Leppod
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#218 - 2014-06-08 00:13:30 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone would genuinely want that demographic to go berserk and start quitting.


Hello? Are we even playing the same game here?

Let's start with the two most basic reasons that the majority would list

1. tears
2. lulz


Marsha Mallow
#219 - 2014-06-08 00:18:41 UTC
Regnag Leppod wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone would genuinely want that demographic to go berserk and start quitting.


Hello? Are we even playing the same game here?

Let's start with the two most basic reasons that the majority would list

1. tears
2. lulz

Don't partially quote. "All joking aside" was the relevant bit. But yeah, OK, there are some people who would watch the game die for tears and lulz. Luckily nobody really pays attention to them (they're not right, in the head).

Thanks for your remark my beloved NPC alt BFF, pillar of our community.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#220 - 2014-06-08 00:39:51 UTC
Regnag Leppod wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone would genuinely want that demographic to go berserk and start quitting.


Hello? Are we even playing the same game here?

Let's start with the two most basic reasons that the majority would list

1. tears
2. lulz




The founding principal of Goonswarm in it's earliest days. Fortunately, most of them realized that, properly maintained, Eve is a source of infinite amounts of those.