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Blueprint data adjustments thread

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Aluka 7th
#321 - 2014-06-06 19:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
These ships have T2 BPO (and will increase in price with proposed change):
- Command ships
- Recons
- HACs
- Interdictors
- Cov.op.
- Assault frigs
- Exhumers
- Interceptors
- Logistics
- Transport ships


These ships don't have T2 BPO and will keep similar price with proposed changes):
- Heavy interdictors
- Marauders
- Black ops
- Jump freighters
Governor McMorris
Doomheim
#322 - 2014-06-06 19:17:45 UTC
Aluka 7th wrote:
These ships have T2 BPO (and will increase in price):
- Command ships
- Recons
- HACs (Castor)
- Interdictors
- Cov.op.
- Assault frigs
- Exhumers
- Interceptors
- Logistics
- Transport ships


These ships don't have T2 BPO:
- Heavy interdictors
- Marauders
- Black ops
- Jump freighters




Thanks! Better start investing.

FOR SALE
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#323 - 2014-06-06 19:50:40 UTC
As ever, all numbers subject to change :)
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#324 - 2014-06-06 19:55:36 UTC
Except for the number 525b. That number will echo throughout the galaxy until the servers burn.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#325 - 2014-06-06 19:56:45 UTC
I just want to be clear. Does the +50% apply across the board to all T2 blueprints, both invented and copied from BPO?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2014-06-06 19:58:29 UTC
You guys need to look at this from a different angle.

T2 bpos will continue to dominate certain markets (and that's the problem)

T2 bpos can dominate a market when there is low demand for the product. That's the case for command ships because of their specialisation and some other ships because of general badness (was a much bigger problem before fozzie changed pretty much all the things balancing). You can check for those markets by running the numbers on invention. If a product is and remains unprofitable, the demand is probably mostly fulfilled by bpos.

T2 profit will shrink, but T2 impact will remain the same. T2 profit has never been a problem, t2 bpo domination has been one. (if you ignore the original distribution mechanics)
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2014-06-06 20:11:20 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
You guys need to look at this from a different angle.

T2 bpos will continue to dominate certain markets (and that's the problem)

T2 bpos can dominate a market when there is low demand for the product. That's the case for command ships because of their specialisation and some other ships because of general badness (was a much bigger problem before fozzie changed pretty much all the things balancing). You can check for those markets by running the numbers on invention. If a product is and remains unprofitable, the demand is probably mostly fulfilled by bpos.

T2 profit will shrink, but T2 impact will remain the same. T2 profit has never been a problem, t2 bpo domination has been one. (if you ignore the original distribution mechanics)


Rerun their cost advantage #s after this. Its within the usual margin now.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#328 - 2014-06-06 20:21:57 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
You guys need to look at this from a different angle.

T2 bpos will continue to dominate certain markets (and that's the problem)

T2 bpos can dominate a market when there is low demand for the product. That's the case for command ships because of their specialisation and some other ships because of general badness (was a much bigger problem before fozzie changed pretty much all the things balancing). You can check for those markets by running the numbers on invention. If a product is and remains unprofitable, the demand is probably mostly fulfilled by bpos.

T2 profit will shrink, but T2 impact will remain the same. T2 profit has never been a problem, t2 bpo domination has been one. (if you ignore the original distribution mechanics)

after this patch strangles their profit we can buy them for a pittance and drown them in the bathtub
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2014-06-06 20:39:35 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
I just want to be clear. Does the +50% apply across the board to all T2 blueprints, both invented and copied from BPO?


Yes, but remember that invented BPCs are going from default -4 ME to default +2 ME, so with a 50% increase in base mats, requirements will stay close to the same for invented stuff.
Throwaway Sam Atild
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#330 - 2014-06-06 21:02:28 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ok, sorry for the delay in replying, busy week.

Draft 4 is here: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/forums/EVE/blueprints_public_draft_4.csv

This is the data that should, if everything works this evening, be on SiSi on Tuesday.

Major things that I can remember having done in this revision:
- The biggest thing is that we've backed off normalizing invention jobs to ~24h in this release, and are leaving outputs at 1/10 runs for now. This is because there's fairly significant complications in ironing out all the wrinkles 24h jobs create, and given our strong expectation to start work on an invention overhaul immediately after Crius we didn't feel happy making extensive balance changes to make up for a lack of sensible mechanical support (ie batching of jobs) when we're expecting to roll in back in the near future anyway. I know people were excited for this, I'm sorry to disappoint you for Crius, but we think this is the better choice for the long-term interests of industry in EVE


Feed me back here, of course, but we'll be on SiSi on Tuesday where you can see all this stuff live, and we'll make further adjustments from there!


I'm not sure I follow this bit. Does this mean that we need to use a max-run copy to produce a max run T2-BPC still? Or stated another way that a single run copy is going to output a single run T2-BPC?
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#331 - 2014-06-06 21:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gamer4liff
Aluka 7th wrote:
These ships have T2 BPO (and will increase in price with proposed change):
Damnation - 8%
....

lol @ the 8% of damnation production coming from inventors. The ship is essentially mathematically impossible to profit on via invention. Some people just like pouring money down a hole I guess.

I still say the best solution for achieving lasting T2 BPO and Invention BPC balance would be to peg max T2 BPO ME 1-3 ME levels below max invention ME level. In addition to the other changes in the thread linked in my sig, of course.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2014-06-06 21:15:17 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
You guys need to look at this from a different angle.

T2 bpos will continue to dominate certain markets (and that's the problem)

T2 bpos can dominate a market when there is low demand for the product. That's the case for command ships because of their specialisation and some other ships because of general badness (was a much bigger problem before fozzie changed pretty much all the things balancing). You can check for those markets by running the numbers on invention. If a product is and remains unprofitable, the demand is probably mostly fulfilled by bpos.

T2 profit will shrink, but T2 impact will remain the same. T2 profit has never been a problem, t2 bpo domination has been one. (if you ignore the original distribution mechanics)


Rerun their cost advantage #s after this. Its within the usual margin now.



The cost advantage is not a problem. The amount of stuff that's produced under these conditions is.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#333 - 2014-06-06 21:25:24 UTC
Gamer4liff wrote:
Aluka 7th wrote:
These ships have T2 BPO (and will increase in price with proposed change):
Damnation - 8%
....

lol @ the 8% of damnation production coming from inventors. The ship is essentially mathematically impossible to profit on via invention. Some people just like pouring money down a hole I guess.

I still say the best solution for achieving lasting T2 BPO and Invention BPC balance would be to peg max T2 BPO ME 1-3 ME levels below max invention ME level. In addition to the other changes in the thread linked in my sig, of course.



Huh. you sure about that, with the damnation. Because with a process decryptor, I'm seeing 418k isk/hr. (around 21 million profit)

That's buying everything from the market at jita prices. (If you sell to a buy order, you'll make around 10 million)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Aluka 7th
#334 - 2014-06-06 21:29:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Gamer4liff wrote:
Aluka 7th wrote:
These ships have T2 BPO (and will increase in price with proposed change):
Damnation - 8%
....

lol @ the 8% of damnation production coming from inventors. The ship is essentially mathematically impossible to profit on via invention. Some people just like pouring money down a hole I guess.

I still say the best solution for achieving lasting T2 BPO and Invention BPC balance would be to peg max T2 BPO ME 1-3 ME levels below max invention ME level. In addition to the other changes in the thread linked in my sig, of course.


Negative margin in Jita is not negative margin everywhere and specially 0.0.
I actually had 2-2.5 bigger margin in 0.0 then in Jita for some T2 ships. Even naglafars have 3x bigger profit in 0.0 then in Forge.
Also if you need armor link fleet booster in wormhole or 0.0, you will invent few Damnation BPCs locally. Its a good fleet boosting ship and quite profitable.
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#335 - 2014-06-06 21:46:22 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:


Huh. you sure about that, with the damnation. Because with a process decryptor, I'm seeing 418k isk/hr. (around 21 million profit)

That's buying everything from the market at jita prices. (If you sell to a buy order, you'll make around 10 million)

Ah, I see the market has recovered some since the last time I checked.

Still, historically, I know the damnation has dipped below negative margins many times in its history, even for BPO owners.

Aluka 7th wrote:

Negative margin in Jita is not negative margin everywhere and specially 0.0.
I actually had 2-2.5 bigger margin in 0.0 then in Jita for some T2 ships. Even naglafars have 3x bigger profit in 0.0 then in Forge.
Also if you need armor link fleet booster in wormhole or 0.0, you will invent few Damnation BPCs locally. Its a good fleet boosting ship and quite profitable.

Fair enough, fair enough, though the costs involved with importing eat a good bit of that too.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2014-06-06 21:54:04 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
You guys need to look at this from a different angle.

T2 bpos will continue to dominate certain markets (and that's the problem)

T2 bpos can dominate a market when there is low demand for the product. That's the case for command ships because of their specialisation and some other ships because of general badness (was a much bigger problem before fozzie changed pretty much all the things balancing). You can check for those markets by running the numbers on invention. If a product is and remains unprofitable, the demand is probably mostly fulfilled by bpos.

T2 profit will shrink, but T2 impact will remain the same. T2 profit has never been a problem, t2 bpo domination has been one. (if you ignore the original distribution mechanics)


Rerun their cost advantage #s after this. Its within the usual margin now.



The cost advantage is not a problem. The amount of stuff that's produced under these conditions is.


You said dominate markets. They aren't going to dominate anything when their cost advantage is well within the effort and margin error.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#337 - 2014-06-06 22:58:35 UTC
Throwaway Sam Atild wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ok, sorry for the delay in replying, busy week.

Draft 4 is here: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/forums/EVE/blueprints_public_draft_4.csv

This is the data that should, if everything works this evening, be on SiSi on Tuesday.

Major things that I can remember having done in this revision:
- The biggest thing is that we've backed off normalizing invention jobs to ~24h in this release, and are leaving outputs at 1/10 runs for now. This is because there's fairly significant complications in ironing out all the wrinkles 24h jobs create, and given our strong expectation to start work on an invention overhaul immediately after Crius we didn't feel happy making extensive balance changes to make up for a lack of sensible mechanical support (ie batching of jobs) when we're expecting to roll in back in the near future anyway. I know people were excited for this, I'm sorry to disappoint you for Crius, but we think this is the better choice for the long-term interests of industry in EVE


Feed me back here, of course, but we'll be on SiSi on Tuesday where you can see all this stuff live, and we'll make further adjustments from there!


I'm not sure I follow this bit. Does this mean that we need to use a max-run copy to produce a max run T2-BPC still? Or stated another way that a single run copy is going to output a single run T2-BPC?


Nope, one run is all you need. We were going to change things so all invention jobs took ~24 hours, but decided not to.
Ryshca
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#338 - 2014-06-06 22:59:23 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:


Is this the T2 bpo nerf many of us have been hoping for? Aka how are you rolling this change out?


Material numbers will all be 1.5/0.9x (to account for both invention changes and waste changes), existing BPCs with negative ME/PE will be rectified. Pretty straightforward, I hope!


I guess my question was more of, will material requirement values of a perfectly researched t2 BPO be more/less/same after these changes?


50% more, I think. Probably exactly, possibly not exactly, I don't want to spin up the math in my head as I'm in the middle of a DB import atm :)


CCP Greyscale wrote:
- We are erring on the side of preserving the status quo in invention over preserving the status quo for T2 BPOs; note that, as previous point, we are not specifically targeting T2 BPOs in any particular way


Will you do anything to keep the status quo for t2 BPOs to Invention BPCs?
All your 'ideas' seems to target to make t2 BPOs worthless.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#339 - 2014-06-06 23:04:21 UTC
Ryshca wrote:
Will you do anything to keep the status quo for t2 BPOs to Invention BPCs?
All your 'ideas' seems to target to make t2 BPOs worthless.


Quote:
We are erring on the side of preserving the status quo in invention over preserving the status quo for T2 BPOs; note that, as previous point, we are not specifically targeting T2 BPOs in any particular way




And they're hardly worthless. The gap is narrowed, but not removed. you still don't have to do any invention on them. You can do longer runs on them (saving more on build costs), and not losing any time to 'I'm not at the keyboard right now'.

CCP have stated (in this thread, iirc) that they consider T2 BPOs an issue. One they don't have a solution for right now, but something they're going to be revisiting.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Mashimara
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2014-06-07 02:23:31 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Ryshca wrote:
Will you do anything to keep the status quo for t2 BPOs to Invention BPCs?
All your 'ideas' seems to target to make t2 BPOs worthless.


Quote:
We are erring on the side of preserving the status quo in invention over preserving the status quo for T2 BPOs; note that, as previous point, we are not specifically targeting T2 BPOs in any particular way




And they're hardly worthless. The gap is narrowed, but not removed. you still don't have to do any invention on them. You can do longer runs on them (saving more on build costs), and not losing any time to 'I'm not at the keyboard right now'.

CCP have stated (in this thread, iirc) that they consider T2 BPOs an issue. One they don't have a solution for right now, but something they're going to be revisiting.


This might not be the place for this BUT. I had a thought. Change manufacturing to REQUIRE a BPC to run a job on. Then simply make the time to copy a T2 BPO 3 times as long as a T1 BPO. This will level the time costs and make those T2 BPO owners happy that their BPO is still in their cargo !