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High sec GANKING
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2014-06-06 19:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
chaosgrimm wrote:

they get the final call.... they can decide to not to gank even not knowing ogb is present.

then you should have no problem with a middle ground where ganking for profit is no longer possible, or the OP's suggestion?

Yes. And they take a risk either way.

Actually I feel that the loss of ganking as an emergent form of gameplay would seriously hurt EVE in the sence that it would no longer be EVE, but rather WoW in spaceships.

chaosgrimm wrote:
Your solution to getting mugged is to get a lower paying job so that the muggers have less to steal. Gankers do not need to make such sacrifices, they can be more profitable by decreasing their upfront costs.

No the solution is to stop carrying your entire paycheck in your wallet all the time. And you really can't get any cheaper than a standard gank catalyst. That's why its called the "standard gank catalyst".

chaosgrimm wrote:
In all of these cases you are either trying to be proactive or defensive, and still ultimately dont decide your own fate.
Blockade Runner - instead of loosing isk via gank, lose ur isk via opportunity cost and terrible cargo
Prepatch Charon had ~180k ehp..... still ganked on a regular
webbing support doesnt always work, and its not as if the webber cant be ganked if the cargo is valuable enough.
falcon cant save you from an alpha, and you cant exactly be proactive with it. and as always, if the cargo is valuable enough, the falcon can be ganked.
Curious as to what ur solution is to mining? running away?
All of these can help ensure gank targets / help ensure a gank is successful. Gankers arnt helpless.

You are never supposed to be able to 100% decide your own fate. That is the entire point of a sandbox. Loosing ISK to opportunity cost and terrible cargo is how it is supposed to be and a better option than loosing more ISK to a gank. Working as intended, risk vs reward, ect...

None of the counters are supposed to work 100% of the time, that's the point. Its called balance. Also please let me know when you figure out how to gank a cloaked Falcon or Arazu before it applies its ewar.

As for mining. Don't do it in a heavily populated system, or even in hisec at all. Or if you must do it in hisec, tank your Procurer/Skiff or orbit a rock at silly speeds in an AB fit Venture or Prospect. The other barges have no place outside of null. The same goes for max yield/cargo space fits, they should only be used in null.

chaosgrimm wrote:
But the above doesnt address the problem here. This is the same problem that low / null sec ppl whine about. I havent been arguing that the risk for haulers / miners is too high. I believe that non consensual combat is fine. And the counters I list arent to show how helpless industrials are; rather, they are intended how capable gankers are. The problem is the risk to gankers is too low. They get to pick the terms of every engagement. They can potentially counter all attempts stop their gank. Their 'losses' are generally the target getting away before they setup / lock or a terribly unlucky drop rate.

Those losses are plenty enough already. You can't be ungankable, and you don't have to be. You just have to be a slightly less appealing target than the guy next to you.

chaosgrimm wrote:
I was talking about risk assessment / management. Gankers can precalc the dps they can deal, the type of ships they should be able to kill, the potential losses from drop rate, etc. They make informed decisions about using more expensive or less expensive ships, ammo, etc to increase their profitability.
The industrial has no idea what their potential risk of getting ganked is because it changes all the time. The dont really get to make informed decisions about taking on more or less risk because they dont have sufficient ways of knowing their chance of losing their ship.

Actually, the EHP/ISK ratio I described makes it very simple for someone to know their risk of getting ganked. Its simple math.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#82 - 2014-06-06 20:00:40 UTC
The ganker and the industrialist both have the exact same information on which to base calculations for risk and gank profitability. And industrialist who doesnt know what his enemies are capable of is just not putting in any effort. Anyone can put fits together in pyfa or browse killboards.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#83 - 2014-06-06 22:32:34 UTC
if ur still getting ganked with with 3 bulkheads on ur freighter then u are either pissing off the wrong person or carrying a ridiculous amount of stuff.

whichever it is, stop.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#84 - 2014-06-06 22:56:17 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
if ur still getting ganked with with 3 bulkheads on ur freighter then u are either pissing off the wrong person or carrying a ridiculous amount of stuff.

whichever it is, stop.


It always amuses me when people act like CCP needs to do anything to stop ganking.

Hey carebears! You want to stop ganking?

Then stop being stupid. Stop flying afk, in loot pinatas. The ability to gank depends entirely on your inability to play the game correctly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Wu Jiaqiu
#85 - 2014-06-06 23:21:05 UTC
There is a counter. Fly with an escort. Have your corp mates get in PvP ships themselves to kill them off you. Why is that so hard to figure out?
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#86 - 2014-06-06 23:29:58 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
The ganker and the industrialist both have the exact same information on which to base calculations for risk and gank profitability. And industrialist who doesnt know what his enemies are capable of is just not putting in any effort. Anyone can put fits together in pyfa or browse killboards.

lol no...

Under what circumstances do gankers take net losses? In the long haul, they take losses if they dont assess situations properly.
Industrials will take losses whenever gankers feel like it, and their loss will be larger than the gankers.

Very very little risk to gankers because they get to hand pick all of their engagements.
Targets dont get the choice of who their ganked by.

I dont see a problem there being risk to hauling
I do see a problem when there is very low / no risk ganking... If a ganker takes a loss, it's because of something the ganker did wrong.
Paranoid Loyd
#87 - 2014-06-06 23:49:32 UTC
Wu Jiaqiu wrote:
There is a counter. Fly with an escort. Have your corp mates get in PvP ships themselves to kill them off you. Why is that so hard to figure out?


I have many hours logged scanning gates in hi-sec . I have seen one escort the entire time, it was a proper escort and it was pretty cool seeing them all warping in slowly with the freighter.

You are correct this is the solution but no one does it.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Sigras
Conglomo
#88 - 2014-06-06 23:55:48 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
The ganker and the industrialist both have the exact same information on which to base calculations for risk and gank profitability. And industrialist who doesnt know what his enemies are capable of is just not putting in any effort. Anyone can put fits together in pyfa or browse killboards.

lol no...

Under what circumstances do gankers take net losses? In the long haul, they take losses if they dont assess situations properly.
Industrials will take losses whenever gankers feel like it, and their loss will be larger than the gankers.

Very very little risk to gankers because they get to hand pick all of their engagements.
Targets dont get the choice of who their ganked by.

I dont see a problem there being risk to hauling
I do see a problem when there is very low / no risk ganking... If a ganker takes a loss, it's because of something the ganker did wrong.

The point he is making is that as an industrialist, you can also do the calculation to see whether or not you're gank-profitable.

If you dont do the math, you're an idiot, if you do the math and dont care then you deserve it.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#89 - 2014-06-06 23:56:59 UTC
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:

Actually I feel that the loss of ganking as an emergent form of gameplay would seriously hurt EVE in the sence that it would no longer be EVE, but rather WoW in spaceships.

ganking is nearly WoW in spaceships already. Like Max level toons on a PvP server griefing low low level toons. There is no way to stop the higher level character from killing you if they want to. The say is true between gankers and their targets in eve. You can always add more DPS up to alpha. You can only add so much tank. The big difference here is that if the gankers are careful about assessing their targets, they get large payouts.

Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:

No the solution is to stop carrying your entire paycheck in your wallet all the time.

Haulers haul things they make profits with. Generally, if you haul more you earn more. So do you lower your earning potential to try to discourage gankers? Or keep your earning potential and risk being ganked by said gankers? either way, the gankers are the ones calling the shots. Gankers only take losses when said gankers make mistakes.

Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:

You are never supposed to be able to 100% decide your own fate. That is the entire point of a sandbox. Loosing ISK to opportunity cost and terrible cargo is how it is supposed to be and a better option than loosing more ISK to a gank. Working as intended, risk vs reward, ect...


Again, i dont mind a game where the gank targets are at risk. What i mind is the risks taken by the gankers are low. They nearly 100% decide their own fate. They get to hand pick their engagements. At least gatecampers having a fleet take them by surprise. In faction warfare you get to pick many of your fights.... but then again, so does the other guy.

Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:

As for mining. Don't do it in a heavily populated system, or even in hisec at all. Or if you must do it in hisec, tank your Procurer/Skiff or orbit a rock at silly speeds in an AB fit Venture or Prospect. The other barges have no place outside of null. The same goes for max yield/cargo space fits, they should only be used in null.
...
You can't be ungankable, and you don't have to be. You just have to be a slightly less appealing target than the guy next to you.

What do the hisec gankers risk? They'll just pick the targets they are sure they can kill. They risk nearly nothing...
Their ships are so worthless they arent really worth the time....
If they ship they want is tanky, they pick another one or bring more dps.
They have too much control over the outcomes.
Paranoid Loyd
#90 - 2014-06-07 00:00:01 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
If a ganker takes a loss, it's because of something the ganker did wrong.


Why do you think this is any different for the hauler?
If a hauler takes a loss, it's because of something the hauler did wrong.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#91 - 2014-06-07 00:03:00 UTC
Sigras wrote:

The point he is making is that as an industrialist, you can also do the calculation to see whether or not you're gank-profitable.

If you dont do the math, you're an idiot, if you do the math and dont care then you deserve it.

My argument is about the risk taken by the ganking profession.

As a ganker, you only take a loss if you make a mistake in your assessment of your target. You pick a target that is too tanking or not worth the isk you spent on your ganking ships.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#92 - 2014-06-07 00:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
If a ganker takes a loss, it's because of something the ganker did wrong.


Why do you think this is any different for the hauler?
If a hauler takes a loss, it's because of something the hauler did wrong.


Because as a hauler, you dont get to choose who engages you.

The ganker will pick a target based on their or their groups dps and cost. Or a target based on the amount of lol said target dying would contribute to the ganking group.

The hauler cant pick a ganking group based on its own tank or cargo value
Paranoid Loyd
#93 - 2014-06-07 00:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
chaosgrimm wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
If a ganker takes a loss, it's because of something the ganker did wrong.


Why do you think this is any different for the hauler?
If a hauler takes a loss, it's because of something the hauler did wrong.


Because as a hauler, you dont get to choose who engages you.

The ganker will pick a target based on their or their groups dps and cost. Or a target based on the amount of lol said target dying would contribute to the ganking group.

The hauler does not get to choose who tries to gank it.


Yes he does, the choice is made well before the gank takes place.

To gank or not to gank is mostly based off what he puts in his cargohold and how the ship is fit, both are choices.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#94 - 2014-06-07 00:08:42 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Sigras wrote:

The point he is making is that as an industrialist, you can also do the calculation to see whether or not you're gank-profitable.

If you dont do the math, you're an idiot, if you do the math and dont care then you deserve it.

My argument is about the risk taken by the ganking profession.

As a ganker, you only take a loss if you make a mistake in your assessment of your target. You pick a target that is too tanking or not worth the isk you spent on your ganking ships.


But in the meantime, until someone who is dumb enough to be profitable comes along, there is no point in ganking. If you're in it for profit anyway.

Yes, they get the advantage once the fight starts. Because their target has already made his decisions, he has already given them the advantage.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Fragglewump
Dust514.
#95 - 2014-06-07 01:06:29 UTC
it does not matter if it is a profitable thing or not, a lot of the time gakers do it for fun.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2014-06-07 01:14:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
chaosgrimm wrote:
ganking is nearly WoW in spaceships already. Like Max level toons on a PvP server griefing low low level toons. There is no way to stop the higher level character from killing you if they want to. The say is true between gankers and their targets in eve. You can always add more DPS up to alpha. You can only add so much tank. The big difference here is that if the gankers are careful about assessing their targets, they get large payouts.

Hardly. Gankers risk bad drops, enemy support, war targets, kill rights, and counter ganks. They also make content in hisec and help keep ships selling by removing some from the economy. You are quite correct that they can always kill you. And that is the point. You are never supposed to be safe in EVE.

chaosgrimm wrote:

Haulers haul things they make profits with. Generally, if you haul more you earn more. So do you lower your earning potential to try to discourage gankers? Or keep your earning potential and risk being ganked by said gankers? either way, the gankers are the ones calling the shots. Gankers only take losses when said gankers make mistakes.

Congratulations, you have discovered the concept of risk vs reward, the cornerstone of EVE. HTFU or go back to WoW if you don't like it.

chaosgrimm wrote:
Again, i dont mind a game where the gank targets are at risk. What i mind is the risks taken by the gankers are low. They nearly 100% decide their own fate. They get to hand pick their engagements. At least gatecampers having a fleet take them by surprise. In faction warfare you get to pick many of your fights.... but then again, so does the other guy.
So get in a catalyst and take a ganker by surprise. If the risks for them are low its only because you let them be low by not properly tanking for your cargo value or otherwise taking some basic precautions.

chaosgrimm wrote:
What do the hisec gankers risk? They'll just pick the targets they are sure they can kill. They risk nearly nothing...
Their ships are so worthless they arent really worth the time....
If they ship they want is tanky, they pick another one or bring more dps.
They have too much control over the outcomes.

They risk there targets becoming smart, and thus very hard to profitably gank. However I think you have demonstrated why this is not as big of a risk as it really should be. Thank you for getting ganked all those tims so that smarter people didn't have to be ganked instead.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2014-06-07 01:28:28 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
Because as a hauler, you dont get to choose who engages you.

The ganker will pick a target based on their or their groups dps and cost. Or a target based on the amount of lol said target dying would contribute to the ganking group.

The hauler cant pick a ganking group based on its own tank or cargo value

But he can pick a ship and EHP total that is appropriate for his cargo, thus massively decreasing his risk of getting ganked regardless of what gank group happens to see him.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2014-06-07 01:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
chaosgrimm wrote:
My argument is about the risk taken by the ganking profession.

As a ganker, you only take a loss if you make a mistake in your assessment of your target.

Or if the target has an OGB, falcon alt, logi support, counter gank support, or implants they weren't expecting.

None of which can be determined from a ship or cargo scan.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#99 - 2014-06-07 01:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Fragglewump wrote:
it does not matter if it is a profitable thing or not, a lot of the time gakers do it for fun.


thats a minority.

go on zkillboard, just looking at various stats for uedama.

cant find any ganks for fun

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#100 - 2014-06-07 01:50:26 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:

You are quite correct that they can always kill you. And that is the point. You are never supposed to be safe in EVE.

Didnt you just say a bit ago: "You are never supposed to be able to 100% decide your own fate" yet, but its okay that gankers can "always kill you."

Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:

Congratulations, you have discovered the concept of risk vs reward, the cornerstone of EVE. HTFU or go back to WoW if you don't like it.

You arent making any sense here...
If you believe ganking motivation lolz, this it is essentially WoW.
If you believe the motivation is isk, then risk vs reward is off balance for the ganking profession.

Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:

So get in a catalyst and take a ganker by surprise. If the risks for them are low its only because you let them be low by not properly tanking for your cargo value or otherwise taking some basic precautions.
...
They risk there targets becoming smart, and thus very hard to profitably gank...

Again, im not sure what you are driving at here.
If you believe the ganking motivation is based on lolz and ganker can always kill, then you cant say droprates / isk losses are a risk.
If you believe the motivation to be isk related, then it is unreasonable to assume someone should spend their time ganking gankers.

Antillie Sa'Kan wrote:
Thank you for getting ganked all those tims so that smarter people didn't have to be ganked instead.

You know what happens when you assume. I can honestly say I've never lost a hauler to a hisec gank. I dont haul stuff myself anymore though, I have it shipped. As I have said over and over... The risk of hauling isnt the issue. The low risk when ganking is the issue.