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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Hexatron Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3141 - 2014-06-06 17:32:31 UTC
Someone is comparing oranges with apples again. The Gecko happens to be a fighter that just has a "heavy drones" sticker attached to it. So a carrier that is optimized for a full flights of fighters, performing amazingly with them is to be expected.

The fact that the Ogre II heavy drones suck in many situations still stands. Just cause a carrier did super well with geckos, doesn't mean a Rattle with Orge IIs will suddenly do super well.

Oh and when it comes to Geckos.. a Rattle has a single one of them.. while a carrier can use 5+ - so this comparison is null and void. Let Rattles use 2-3 of them and i may accept your argument that a carrier was doing super well with geckos... but till then, this proves absolutely nothing.

An Ogre II tracks really crappy.... while a Gecko doesn't.
Nalarin
#3142 - 2014-06-06 18:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalarin
nvm
Nalarin
#3143 - 2014-06-06 18:05:36 UTC
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
Someone is comparing oranges with apples again. The Gecko happens to be a fighter that just has a "heavy drones" sticker attached to it. So a carrier that is optimized for a full flights of fighters, performing amazingly with them is to be expected.

Oh and when it comes to Geckos.. a Rattle has a single one of them.. while a carrier can use 5+ - so this comparison is null and void. Let Rattles use 2-3 of them and i may accept your argument that a carrier was doing super well with geckos... but till then, this proves absolutely nothing.

Sounds good, as long as you don't consider how the Carrier gets only the "more drones" bonus to Geckos, while the Rattlesnake gets +275%.

If the Rattler would launch 3, it would be putting out a LOT more dps than a carrier can.
Even with 2, it would do more damage than a Carrier if you factor in missiles, breaking even otherwise.

Apples got turned into Mandarins.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#3144 - 2014-06-06 18:07:23 UTC
Nalarin wrote:
3 Geckos with 275% damage/hitpoint.
Sounds balanced.

Last time I checked, carriers don't get a damage bonus to Heavies.
So a Rattleris not THAT far off.

Apples and oranges?
More like Oranges to Mandarins in this case.



thanny 7 gekos no dda 861 dps
rattle 1 getko 3 dda 770 dps

thanny 7 gekos 2 dda 1271 dps
Nalarin
#3145 - 2014-06-06 18:13:33 UTC
Lady Rift wrote:
thanny 7 gekos no dda 861 dps
rattle 1 getko 3 dda 770 dps

thanny 7 gekos 2 dda 1271 dps

So you agree that a Rattlesnake with 3 Gecko (his suggestion) would be madness.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#3146 - 2014-06-06 18:17:49 UTC
Nalarin wrote:
Lady Rift wrote:
thanny 7 gekos no dda 861 dps
rattle 1 getko 3 dda 770 dps

thanny 7 gekos 2 dda 1271 dps

So you agree that a Rattlesnake with 3 Gecko (his suggestion) would be madness.





3 gecko's would just reduce the bonus to the drones.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3147 - 2014-06-06 18:22:18 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Agent Luther Sloan wrote:

First of all, why are so many fit's I've seen active tanked?


If you ask Kaarous, he will tell you that if you passive shield tank a Rattlesnake, you are doing it wrong. Lol

Roll

These kids are so ridiculous with their pve-only fits that still fall far short of the ease and mission clearing capability of a mach.

--this par i dont really care about--

1 or 2 drones are far easier combat than 5. Other ships are more versatile and do higher dps with less micromanagement.



Interestingly, mr. Sloan seems to be doing the same thing that you point out as ridiculous, dealing with micromanagement, close spawns, slowboating due to lower range, tracking problems due to close rats, refitting on the fly just to slowboat, cherry picking missions, lower damage overall ...

Dunno if we can get somewhere if we deal with "i have just one rigor and no painters on me raven and do l4s just fine, stuff just keeps exploding" arguments. (and yes, i am exaggerating)
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#3148 - 2014-06-06 18:36:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
Someone is comparing oranges with apples again. The Gecko happens to be a fighter that just has a "heavy drones" sticker attached to it. So a carrier that is optimized for a full flights of fighters, performing amazingly with them is to be expected.

The fact that the Ogre II heavy drones suck in many situations still stands. Just cause a carrier did super well with geckos, doesn't mean a Rattle with Orge IIs will suddenly do super well.

Oh and when it comes to Geckos.. a Rattle has a single one of them.. while a carrier can use 5+ - so this comparison is null and void. Let Rattles use 2-3 of them and i may accept your argument that a carrier was doing super well with geckos... but till then, this proves absolutely nothing.

An Ogre II tracks really crappy.... while a Gecko doesn't.



LOL. Yea, baltec1 was pointing to that as evidence that heavy drones could deal with frigates effectively. HAHA! What a clown. There halfway decent arguments to rebuke the fact that the RS will now be even weaker to fast moving frigates than before unless it severely gimps itself vs every other type of ship in the game.

I'm a little surprised these awful changes to the drone system went through even as Mordus legion came out as missile focused pirate faction battleship. I guess with so many ships they had to change, they were bound to screw up a few.

Its even worse in pvp than it was before. Your super drone gets disabled, no room for spares, and you are left with RLML trying to fight everything else in EVE because you have no other way to effectively kill fast frigates without them.

Poor, poor Rattlesnake. Sad It will only be flown for the novelty, and by the naive.

Additionally, to utilize the rattlesnakes strenght as a passive tank, it needs bonuses on all its drones since so many slots must be dedicated to passive tanking and cannot be be used to give heavy drones the ability to deal with frigates.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#3149 - 2014-06-06 18:56:08 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
Someone is comparing oranges with apples again. The Gecko happens to be a fighter that just has a "heavy drones" sticker attached to it. So a carrier that is optimized for a full flights of fighters, performing amazingly with them is to be expected.

The fact that the Ogre II heavy drones suck in many situations still stands. Just cause a carrier did super well with geckos, doesn't mean a Rattle with Orge IIs will suddenly do super well.

Oh and when it comes to Geckos.. a Rattle has a single one of them.. while a carrier can use 5+ - so this comparison is null and void. Let Rattles use 2-3 of them and i may accept your argument that a carrier was doing super well with geckos... but till then, this proves absolutely nothing.

An Ogre II tracks really crappy.... while a Gecko doesn't.



LOL. Yea, baltec1 was pointing to that as evidence that heavy drones could deal with frigates effectively. HAHA! What a clown. They have no good arguments to rebuke the fact that the RS will now be even weaker to fast moving frigates than before unless it gimps itself vs every other type of ship in the game.

I'm a little surprised these awful changes to the drone system went through even as Mordus legion came out as missile focused pirate faction battleship. I guess with so many ships they had to change, they were bound to screw up a few.

Its even worse in solo pvp than it was before. Poor, poor Rattlesnake. Sad


It is not like it was popular for PvP before changes. Besides there is really no solo PvP with a a BS anyway, unless you consider offgrid booster plus falcon alt as solo PvP.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#3150 - 2014-06-06 19:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Carniflex wrote:


It is not like it was popular for PvP before changes. Besides there is really no solo PvP with a a BS anyway, unless you consider offgrid booster plus falcon alt as solo PvP.


Thats is the purpose of balance, to make less desireable ships more desireable. Not only did CCP Rise **** all over Rattlesnake pilots who picked the Rattlesnake for its 400m3 drone bay, bonuses to all its drone and missile velocity bonus, but he made the ship even weaker in pvp. These callous and irresponsible and unneccesary changes are clearly made in the mentality of DPS-centric thinking, and a limited understanding of how RS pilots utilize their ships. It should have just gotten more slots to boost its DPS.

Must be nice to fly a Mach.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3151 - 2014-06-06 19:13:20 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:

Thats is the purpose of balance, to make less desireable ships more desireable. Not only did CCP Rise **** all over Rattlesnake pilots who picked the Rattlesnake for its 400m3 drone bay, bonuses to all its drone and missile velocity bonus, but he made the ship even weaker in pvp. DPS-centric thinking and a limited understanding of how the RS is played.

Must be nice to fly a Mach.


In exchange for sacrificing your incredibly bad, niche use for the ship, they have now opened to doing, you know, actual things.

Oh and the ship is a verifiable nightmare in PvP. It mows down smaller ships, and against battleships delivers incredible capless damage output, roughly half of which can't be stopped by most ewar. Or 100% of it, if you use dumbfire missiles.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#3152 - 2014-06-06 19:18:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:

Thats is the purpose of balance, to make less desireable ships more desireable. Not only did CCP Rise **** all over Rattlesnake pilots who picked the Rattlesnake for its 400m3 drone bay, bonuses to all its drone and missile velocity bonus, but he made the ship even weaker in pvp. DPS-centric thinking and a limited understanding of how the RS is played.

Must be nice to fly a Mach.


In exchange for sacrificing your incredibly bad, niche use for the ship, they have now opened to doing, you know, actual things.

Oh and the ship is a verifiable nightmare in PvP. It mows down smaller ships, and against battleships delivers incredible capless damage output, roughly half of which can't be stopped by most ewar. Or 100% of it, if you use dumbfire missiles.


You think its wrong to passive shield tank a Rattlesnake so I think its pretty safe to say your opinion on the ship is invalid. You are only in this thread because you live on these forums and like to argue with everyone endlessly, and ridiculously, to fill the void in your life. Another Baletc1 or Tippia. Sad.

It must really suck to be you.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#3153 - 2014-06-06 19:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
The price of a Rattlesnake only went up because of a speculation bubble. When that bubble burst, the price immediatly dropped. Fact.

Since kronos has released, the price continues to drop and drop as we speak. Fact. If the ships were "awesome in pvp" as you are claiming, the price would undoubtedly be going up, and not dropping.

Undeniably, the Rattlesnake is not as good as you think it is.

The market has spoken. Solid proof that you are wrong and have been wrong about the Rattlesnake the entire time.

nomatter how awesome you claim the rattlesnake is for pvp, there is not one shred of evidence that supports that claim.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3154 - 2014-06-06 20:04:20 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
The price of a Rattlesnake only went up because of a speculation bubble. When that bubble burst, the price immediatly dropped.


False. It dropped because the stock increased by an immense amount. More were sold since this thread was posted than have been sold in the last year.

Quote:

Since kronos has released, the price continues to drop and drop as we speak. If the ships were "awesome in pvp" as you are claiming, the price would undoubtedly be going up, and not dropping.


You underestimate the sheer amount of these things the Goons have been saving for the last few years. No one wanted to buy them because the old Rattlesnake was beyond worthless, it was inarguably worse than a Dominix even.

Now that they actually have a market for it, the ship is being sold in record numbers.


Quote:

Undeniably, the Rattlesnake is not as good as you think it is.


It's actually better than I thought, as it turns out. It has an incredibly friendly skill ceiling for new players, as even with this character's godawful drone/Gallente skills compared to my SiSi toon I can pump out 1100 DPS and have a 100k EHP tank with ease.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#3155 - 2014-06-06 23:28:59 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them.

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3156 - 2014-06-07 04:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
Someone is comparing oranges with apples again. The Gecko happens to be a fighter that just has a "heavy drones" sticker attached to it. So a carrier that is optimized for a full flights of fighters, performing amazingly with them is to be expected.

The fact that the Ogre II heavy drones suck in many situations still stands. Just cause a carrier did super well with geckos, doesn't mean a Rattle with Orge IIs will suddenly do super well.

Oh and when it comes to Geckos.. a Rattle has a single one of them.. while a carrier can use 5+ - so this comparison is null and void. Let Rattles use 2-3 of them and i may accept your argument that a carrier was doing super well with geckos... but till then, this proves absolutely nothing.

An Ogre II tracks really crappy.... while a Gecko doesn't.


Lin said heavies cannot track frigates, an unbonused carrier not only got its heavies to track frigates, but destroyed 9 bombers and a pilgrim in under 3 minutes while AFK, many of the bombers in under a minute.

This shows that heavies do infact track frigates and will kill them.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3157 - 2014-06-07 04:50:32 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:


You can't take your Rattlesnake into low and null because you can't kill even kill a 500k isk Incursus anymore without totally gimping yourself against every other size of ship in the game due to loss of bonuses on lights, missile specialization, and loss of the versatility of a 400m3 drone bay.


[Rattlesnake, PvP]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Target Painter II
Target Painter II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II

Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I


Berserker II x2
Ogre II x2
Garde II x2

1600+ vs cruisers and up. 1200+ vs frigates and destroyers.

I cannot think of a better anti support ship for a small gang battleship.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3158 - 2014-06-07 10:29:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

1600+ vs cruisers and up. 1200+ vs frigates and destroyers.

I cannot think of a better anti support ship for a small gang battleship.


One of the better attributes of it is that rapid heavy missiles just have such incredibly good projection. Which means that it can brawl or engage kiters at long range with equal efficacy.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#3159 - 2014-06-07 11:20:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
baltec1 wrote:
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
Someone is comparing oranges with apples again. The Gecko happens to be a fighter that just has a "heavy drones" sticker attached to it. So a carrier that is optimized for a full flights of fighters, performing amazingly with them is to be expected.

The fact that the Ogre II heavy drones suck in many situations still stands. Just cause a carrier did super well with geckos, doesn't mean a Rattle with Orge IIs will suddenly do super well.

Oh and when it comes to Geckos.. a Rattle has a single one of them.. while a carrier can use 5+ - so this comparison is null and void. Let Rattles use 2-3 of them and i may accept your argument that a carrier was doing super well with geckos... but till then, this proves absolutely nothing.

An Ogre II tracks really crappy.... while a Gecko doesn't.


Lin said heavies cannot track frigates, an unbonused carrier not only got its heavies to track frigates, but destroyed 9 bombers and a pilgrim in under 3 minutes while AFK, many of the bombers in under a minute.

This shows that heavies do infact track frigates and will kill them.


No, that is a completely stupid comparison and doesn't prove anything at all.

Carriers have bonuses to fighters, which geckos are.

Also the dev blog has even stated that it will even be harder for heavies to hit fast moving targets than before the changes. You are completely wrong and it is very telling that you have no good arguments if this is the only thing you can point to where heavy drones were able to kill frigates in pvp.

It is pretty hilariously pathetic that you even tried to use a carrier killing bombers an an example that heavy drones can track frigates fine.Lol


Thanks for the laughs, but you are obviously and hilariously wrong.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3160 - 2014-06-07 11:27:24 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:



Carriers have bonuses to fighters, which geckos are.



Wrong, they are not fighters.

Priestess Lin wrote:

No, that is a completely stupid comparison and doesn't prove anything at all.


Bombers are frigates, you say heavies cannot track frigates, a carrier with heavy drones killed a whole gang of frigates in a few minutes. This means that heavies can track frigates.