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Blueprint data adjustments thread

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Aluka 7th
#301 - 2014-06-06 17:05:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Apelacja wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
It's not something that's on the top of my list of concerns right now, but I'm prepared to be persuaded otherwise.



Let`s make some calculations ( with fully skilled characters everything lvl 5)

Now coppy time is 54 days after patch it will be 13 days.
All freighters are built from 1 run invention run due to 10 % difference for 1 ME, and chance is 40% ( 42 in theory, but after 2 000 invention for me it below 40 %, i will assume it is 40%).

So u need around 2,5 coppy of Freighter BPO to make one JF.
so it is around 50 coppies to make 20 JF`s.
It is 5 characters coppying and building per month when u count small queue on slots in hs and when u don`t build freighters.

Altogher u need 50 coppies so it is 50 BPO`s.

To achive the same state after patch u will need only 18 BPO`s under coppy all the time in hs station. In outpost 9 BPO`s.
When invention will be changed to positive ME and difference will be only 1% between 8 run and 1 run then u will need only 1,2 BPO........

So as u see from 50 BPO`s constatnly being used in POS u will land into 1,2 in the worst case and 18 at the best without changed to invetion.

Now look at market in Jita:

charons - around 40 per day
Rhea - around 9 per day.

to create Rhea u needed number of BPO`s enough to build 4,5 charons.

And as long as there will be no more BPO`s needed to create base coppy for invention u will get only from that step enough BPO`s to build additoional 40 charons per day.

In summary after changes there WILL BE 2 TIMES MORE BPO`s of freighters then currently needed.


Aproximately around 2 000 freighters BPO`s will be not used anymore and become totally useless.

And freighters BPO cost u 2 b per. Problem is somehow smaller with BS`s bcs number of involved BPO`s is much much smaller but for some industrialists still can exist.


To solve this problem i will suggest:
- a way to repackage BPO
- Let npc station to buy back BPO at 'old' BPO prices ( before patch ages ago) which were 10-15 % lower then currant. From what i remeber charon BPO for example was going for 1,8 b.


Another problem i see in this. In general it was proposed to balance coppy/invention to production time - in crusis this ratio will be far at the edge of illness for T2 bs/freight


This is a reasonable argument. In isolation I'd probably lean towards some method of... I don't want to say reimbursement necessarily, but a way to cash out that investment without taking too much of a haircut would be plausible. We'd have to think through all the consequences of doing so, though, and I can't guarantee where that line of thought would end up yet.


IMHO you would open can of worms with reimbursement/compensation as every patch influences some manufacturers.
It was/is possible to build capital ship using just one BPO of each component type but not time optimal. And people invested money in more BPOs to achieve optimal and produce more components and also more capital ships. That was their risk investment. Lets say I bought (in theory) a lot of BPOs to increase my production volume for Armageddon and that ship gets nerfed in a patch and now no one wants to buy that ship. Would you reimbursed those excess BPOs I bought in some patch down the line (because I don't need that many anymore)?

Will you reimburse all those railgun/bastion/... BPOs that were used for compression now the compression will be changed?

Like I said, it would create precedent in future reimbursement requests that are also based on risky investing in additional BPOs for extra profit.

Capital producer will find buyers much sooner then people selling meta 0 railgun BPOs but truth is they don't want competition AND still want their investment back. You can't have your cake and eat it at the same time.
Valterra Craven
#302 - 2014-06-06 17:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
CCP Greyscale wrote:

This is a reasonable argument. In isolation I'd probably lean towards some method of... I don't want to say reimbursement necessarily, but a way to cash out that investment without taking too much of a haircut would be plausible. We'd have to think through all the consequences of doing so, though, and I can't guarantee where that line of thought would end up yet.


I'm of the opinion that any form of "reimbursement" beyond SP is a bad precedent to set. For example, with all of the ship changes over the past couple of years I now have two fully cargo rigged hoarders that are completely worthless given that their cargo bay was moved to a specialized bay. And this is only ONE of many many examples. I know for a fact that other game companies (Turbine) reset items in such a way that you don't lose them and you can redo things that were once permanent. CCP has never done this in the past and will likely not do so in the future. In other words if you go down this road then you should also look at unrigging every single ship affected by a balance change, or when rigs themselves have stat or penalty changes. Reimbursement has never been the CCP way with one obvious exception that I know about. We all have to suffer through changes and some of us even have to "take baths" on them. Please do NOT go down this road unless you want to tread it fully.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#303 - 2014-06-06 17:11:58 UTC
Ok, sorry for the delay in replying, busy week.

Draft 4 is here: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/forums/EVE/blueprints_public_draft_4.csv

This is the data that should, if everything works this evening, be on SiSi on Tuesday.

Major things that I can remember having done in this revision:
- The biggest thing is that we've backed off normalizing invention jobs to ~24h in this release, and are leaving outputs at 1/10 runs for now. This is because there's fairly significant complications in ironing out all the wrinkles 24h jobs create, and given our strong expectation to start work on an invention overhaul immediately after Crius we didn't feel happy making extensive balance changes to make up for a lack of sensible mechanical support (ie batching of jobs) when we're expecting to roll in back in the near future anyway. I know people were excited for this, I'm sorry to disappoint you for Crius, but we think this is the better choice for the long-term interests of industry in EVE
- T2 material usage is all kicked up 50% to account for the drop in "default" invention ME from -4 (old system) to +2 (new system)
- We've decided to stay with float ranks for now because we lose too much resolution for eg T2 small ammo by going int-only
- I've messed with the ranks of a bunch of specialist modules (warfare links, probe launchers etc) to give them a bit more flavor
- T2 copy times are down to 0.8x build time like everything else; we are provisionally planning on adjusting certain copy-speed bonuses to not affect T2 blueprints, more info as we tune it
- Ship skin blueprints have all had their build time set to 10s; we'll be special-casing build costs separately

I thiiiiink that's everything, but as above, long week, I may have missed something!

Feed me back here, of course, but we'll be on SiSi on Tuesday where you can see all this stuff live, and we'll make further adjustments from there!
Valterra Craven
#304 - 2014-06-06 17:15:13 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- T2 material usage is all kicked up 50% to account for the drop in "default" invention ME from -4 (old system) to +2 (new system)


Is this the T2 bpo nerf many of us have been hoping for? Aka how are you rolling this change out?
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2014-06-06 17:31:14 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ok, sorry for the delay in replying, busy week.

Draft 4 is here: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/forums/EVE/blueprints_public_draft_4.csv

This is the data that should, if everything works this evening, be on SiSi on Tuesday.

Major things that I can remember having done in this revision:
- The biggest thing is that we've backed off normalizing invention jobs to ~24h in this release, and are leaving outputs at 1/10 runs for now. This is because there's fairly significant complications in ironing out all the wrinkles 24h jobs create, and given our strong expectation to start work on an invention overhaul immediately after Crius we didn't feel happy making extensive balance changes to make up for a lack of sensible mechanical support (ie batching of jobs) when we're expecting to roll in back in the near future anyway. I know people were excited for this, I'm sorry to disappoint you for Crius, but we think this is the better choice for the long-term interests of industry in EVE
- T2 material usage is all kicked up 50% to account for the drop in "default" invention ME from -4 (old system) to +2 (new system)
- We've decided to stay with float ranks for now because we lose too much resolution for eg T2 small ammo by going int-only
- I've messed with the ranks of a bunch of specialist modules (warfare links, probe launchers etc) to give them a bit more flavor
- T2 copy times are down to 0.8x build time like everything else; we are provisionally planning on adjusting certain copy-speed bonuses to not affect T2 blueprints, more info as we tune it
- Ship skin blueprints have all had their build time set to 10s; we'll be special-casing build costs separately

I thiiiiink that's everything, but as above, long week, I may have missed something!

Feed me back here, of course, but we'll be on SiSi on Tuesday where you can see all this stuff live, and we'll make further adjustments from there!


That is probably the best solution for the T2 copy times so we don't have useless outposts still. Or rather, completely useless ones.

Everything else looks good though I haven't seen a comp bpo change yet but I might have missed it while traveling.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#306 - 2014-06-06 17:43:34 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- T2 material usage is all kicked up 50% to account for the drop in "default" invention ME from -4 (old system) to +2 (new system)


Is this the T2 bpo nerf many of us have been hoping for? Aka how are you rolling this change out?


Material numbers will all be 1.5/0.9x (to account for both invention changes and waste changes), existing BPCs with negative ME/PE will be rectified. Pretty straightforward, I hope!

Aryth wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ok, sorry for the delay in replying, busy week.

Draft 4 is here: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/forums/EVE/blueprints_public_draft_4.csv

This is the data that should, if everything works this evening, be on SiSi on Tuesday.

Major things that I can remember having done in this revision:
- The biggest thing is that we've backed off normalizing invention jobs to ~24h in this release, and are leaving outputs at 1/10 runs for now. This is because there's fairly significant complications in ironing out all the wrinkles 24h jobs create, and given our strong expectation to start work on an invention overhaul immediately after Crius we didn't feel happy making extensive balance changes to make up for a lack of sensible mechanical support (ie batching of jobs) when we're expecting to roll in back in the near future anyway. I know people were excited for this, I'm sorry to disappoint you for Crius, but we think this is the better choice for the long-term interests of industry in EVE
- T2 material usage is all kicked up 50% to account for the drop in "default" invention ME from -4 (old system) to +2 (new system)
- We've decided to stay with float ranks for now because we lose too much resolution for eg T2 small ammo by going int-only
- I've messed with the ranks of a bunch of specialist modules (warfare links, probe launchers etc) to give them a bit more flavor
- T2 copy times are down to 0.8x build time like everything else; we are provisionally planning on adjusting certain copy-speed bonuses to not affect T2 blueprints, more info as we tune it
- Ship skin blueprints have all had their build time set to 10s; we'll be special-casing build costs separately

I thiiiiink that's everything, but as above, long week, I may have missed something!

Feed me back here, of course, but we'll be on SiSi on Tuesday where you can see all this stuff live, and we'll make further adjustments from there!


That is probably the best solution for the T2 copy times so we don't have useless outposts still. Or rather, completely useless ones.

Everything else looks good though I haven't seen a comp bpo change yet but I might have missed it while traveling.


I think we're largely leaving component BPOs alone, except that capital components have ~7 days' worth of build time in a max run copy (it's rounded to the nearest 10).
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#307 - 2014-06-06 17:44:40 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I thiiiiink that's everything, but as above, long week, I may have missed something!



Time to max research column? :D

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#308 - 2014-06-06 17:46:03 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I thiiiiink that's everything, but as above, long week, I may have missed something!



Time to max research column? :D


Oh. Yeah. Forgot about that. Multiply level 1 research by 256000/105 to get total max research time in seconds.
Valterra Craven
#309 - 2014-06-06 17:50:20 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- T2 material usage is all kicked up 50% to account for the drop in "default" invention ME from -4 (old system) to +2 (new system)


Is this the T2 bpo nerf many of us have been hoping for? Aka how are you rolling this change out?


Material numbers will all be 1.5/0.9x (to account for both invention changes and waste changes), existing BPCs with negative ME/PE will be rectified. Pretty straightforward, I hope!


I guess my question was more of, will material requirement values of a perfectly researched t2 BPO be more/less/same after these changes?
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#310 - 2014-06-06 17:53:53 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I thiiiiink that's everything, but as above, long week, I may have missed something!



Time to max research column? :D


Oh. Yeah. Forgot about that. Multiply level 1 research by 256000/105 to get total max research time in seconds.


Just checking it hadn't changed ;)

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#311 - 2014-06-06 18:05:13 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- T2 material usage is all kicked up 50% to account for the drop in "default" invention ME from -4 (old system) to +2 (new system)


Is this the T2 bpo nerf many of us have been hoping for? Aka how are you rolling this change out?


Material numbers will all be 1.5/0.9x (to account for both invention changes and waste changes), existing BPCs with negative ME/PE will be rectified. Pretty straightforward, I hope!


I guess my question was more of, will material requirement values of a perfectly researched t2 BPO be more/less/same after these changes?


50% more, I think. Probably exactly, possibly not exactly, I don't want to spin up the math in my head as I'm in the middle of a DB import atm :)
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2014-06-06 18:14:42 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

- T2 material usage is all kicked up 50% to account for the drop in "default" invention ME from -4 (old system) to +2 (new system)


Is this the T2 bpo nerf many of us have been hoping for? Aka how are you rolling this change out?


Material numbers will all be 1.5/0.9x (to account for both invention changes and waste changes), existing BPCs with negative ME/PE will be rectified. Pretty straightforward, I hope!


I guess my question was more of, will material requirement values of a perfectly researched t2 BPO be more/less/same after these changes?


50% more, I think. Probably exactly, possibly not exactly, I don't want to spin up the math in my head as I'm in the middle of a DB import atm :)


This is quite the clever solution to them.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#313 - 2014-06-06 18:25:06 UTC
Aaaaaaaand there goes my weekend.

Feels really good to see my suggestions iimplemented, or at least, strongly considered and postponed with good arguments.
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#314 - 2014-06-06 18:29:15 UTC
Doesn't that mean that all currently existing T2 items will become almost 50% more valuable post-crius?


speculation machine running....
Aluka 7th
#315 - 2014-06-06 18:34:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Loraine Gess wrote:
Doesn't that mean that all currently existing T2 items will become almost 50% more valuable post-crius?


speculation machine running....


You are right. That means that all invention BPCs (-1 to -4 now) will become +XX BPC but will both require roughly the same amount of materials.

That means things that are manufactured mostly from invention will still have similar price before/after Crius AND things that are manufactured mostly from T2 BPO will cost almost 50% more. Those are mostly T2 ships that will substantially increase in price. That will be the end result of "nerf T2 BPO" movement :) As the say: "Be careful what you wish for".
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#316 - 2014-06-06 18:40:30 UTC
Aluka 7th wrote:
Loraine Gess wrote:
Doesn't that mean that all currently existing T2 items will become almost 50% more valuable post-crius?


speculation machine running....


You are right. That means that all invention BPCs (-1 to -4 now) will become +XX BPC but will both require roughly the same amount of materials.

That means things that are manufactured mostly from invention will still have similar price before/after Crius AND things that are manufactured mostly from T2 BPO will cost almost 50% more. Those are mostly T2 ships that will substantially increase in price.



Yes thank you for the differentiation! I was thinking about my statement for a moment and thought it couldn't possibly be right, as the 50% increase is meant to solve the invention change.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2014-06-06 18:42:25 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Doesn't that mean that all currently existing T2 items will become almost 50% more valuable post-crius?


speculation machine running....


No. It means those areas dominated by T2 BPOs will adjust upwards. CS/Recons etc. Not all.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#318 - 2014-06-06 19:06:16 UTC
Loraine Gess wrote:
Doesn't that mean that all currently existing T2 items will become almost 50% more valuable post-crius?


speculation machine running....


Yes. buy buy buy.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Voyager Arran
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#319 - 2014-06-06 19:09:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Voyager Arran
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=134962&p=2

With a little luck his kids should recoup the investment in 30 years.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#320 - 2014-06-06 19:13:06 UTC
No rumor mongering.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.