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Kronos: Welcome back, unkillable supercarriers.

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Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#101 - 2014-06-06 16:34:29 UTC
Athraws wrote:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/capital-ship-balancing/
"If you want to deal with sub-capitals, you should bring your own sub-capitals or a carrier"


This.

We'll need to see how the drone changes affect capital and supercapital balance. Obviously they got buffed, but was is too much?
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#102 - 2014-06-06 16:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghaustyl Kathix
Tarsas Phage wrote:
If you've never gone up against a super carrier before, I can assure you (speaking from plenty of experience) that a single HIC has never been able to do a sufficient job. Even a single-ECCM'd HIC has a decent chance of being ECM bursted by the super, which means you always need a minimum of 2 HICs that can stay > 20km from each other.

Combine that with the super always being able to neut out a HIC (if said super is not crap-fit and the HIC pilot isn't paying attention), adding DPS to the mix doesn't change much... you still need multiple HICs to assuredly tackle a super, as was always the case anyway.

Yeah, you do need multiple HICs, I didn't dispute that. Supers did have ways of dealing with HICs before, but as you pointed out there are ways that HICs can mitigate those. But now supercarriers can easily kill them, and there's no counter-play for the HIC. To people saying "just repair the HIC," they can't be repaired while the warp disruption field generator is active. Even if they could be, the logi repairing it will die even faster and then the HIC dies.

Even beyond the supercarrier vs HIC, this is counter to what CCP has said multiple times, most prominently displayed in the linked Dev Blog. "If you want to deal with subcapitals, you should bring your own subcapitals."


Grath Telkin wrote:
Nobody will ever fit a nyx that way because to run that would suck up all your available internal space holding spare capital sized rep mods, and if they did happen to run that fit, you'd simply kill the 2 ships in question as they'd have nearly zero chance of surviving any punishment.

When PL fields a 30+ supercarrier fleet, for example, how does the opposing side realistically know which supers are fit for anti-HIC? Shoot all of them and see if any take a little more damage?

With this how it is, we'll never see losses close to B-R5RB, for example, and we might not see PL and Black Legion catching and killing a bunch of CFC supercarriers like they did recently, either.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#103 - 2014-06-08 08:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:

When PL fields a 30+ supercarrier fleet, for example, how does the opposing side realistically know which supers are fit for anti-HIC? Shoot all of them and see if any take a little more damage?


When PL fields 30+ Supers the other side doesn't have time to know which ones are fit for anti-HIC. They only have time to **** themselves and sit in it as they die.

Jesting aside your points are completely unfounded with "uncatchable" Supers. A Super was never meant to be caught with just one HIC and this buff to (shield) supers in particular was desperately needed to bring the Hel and Wyvern on par with the Nyx and Aeon respectively in terms of damage and adequate tank.

Now Nyx pilots are forced to pick and choose between fitting a sub par tank for gank and Aeons now do less dps in order to maintain it's role as one of the better tanked Supers. Fighters really were just useless for fending off sub caps before and now (thankfully) Supers can have a bit of variance with their dps output.

Still a dedicated force has always needed to bring multiple HIC's prior to these changes and this changes little save perhaps for a Super to possibly negate point long enough to get out. Not necessarily kill the HIC. The object of a tackled Super is of course to no longer be tackled not necessarily kill the tackle ship.

You also fail to understand that while the initial HIC may die it's main purpose is to hold down the Super long enough for a cyno to be lit and reinforcements (aka ghostriders) to establish secondary and additional points. At this stage it is safe to assume the pointed Super is not getting away because repping carriers will be brought in with the initial dps to of course rep through the meager 3500-4500 dps a Super will do.

I say meager because in terms of reps that's very little. If anything Super dps can now be more easily applied to a subcap force of say Battleships to be a mainstay of force projection on a field where it's needed. Nothing is invincible in Eve. There's always a weakness in some ship even a Super. With a dedicated force a Super is just as vulnerable if not more so than any other ship in Eve.

You also need to remember something else about Supers. They have one other huge glaring vulnerability. Everyone wants to kill one. Once people see you on a KM or on field or happen to see you floating all snug in your POS you better believe someone has your number.

No amount of fighter damage will save you once a group decides to hunt you.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#104 - 2014-06-08 23:55:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghaustyl Kathix
Tara Read wrote:
Fighters really were just useless for fending off sub caps before
That's the problem; they're supposed to be, for the same reason dreadnought guns have a hard time hitting cruisers and the same reason doomsdays can't hit subcaps. "If you want to kill subcaps, bring subcaps." I do agree the Hel and Wyvern needed buffs, but they are buffed now that drone damage amps affect fighters. The tracking, though, is way too much.

As I said earlier, I don't dispute that you have to bring multiple HICs to hold down supers, but I think a gank-fit Nyx will still kill 4~8 HICs much faster than the super itself will die.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#105 - 2014-06-09 04:22:23 UTC
Supers are far from un-killable. Sure they put out Face-Melting DPS with the new fighter Changes but thats how it should be. If you train for the better part of a year to sit in a 20B+ Coffin you should at least be able to kill effectively in it.

Want OP supers Bring back Titan doomsday AOE damage or the ability to track subcaps on those guns again. THAT was OP A Nyx doing 7k DPS? Not so much

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Camper101
State War Academy
Caldari State
#106 - 2014-06-10 06:43:28 UTC
Supers are far from uncatchable, if you can't field more than 1 200m ISK cruiser to hold a 25b+ ship down, you are **** out of luck then. But you know, you could like.. coordinate HICs and ****.

(If they have enough supers to kill you faster than a T2 Infinipoint cycles you would have been dead before the patch as well.)

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Cyrek Ohaya
Blazing Sun Group
#107 - 2014-06-17 06:09:08 UTC
They should make each factions fighters and bombers exclusive to their corresponding faction carrier/SC. Due to the increasing popularity of Einherjis, at least that's they only way of making the Hel an attractive and fearsome choice again.