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High sec GANKING
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Velicitia
XS Tech
#21 - 2014-06-06 10:03:07 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Where else can we find afk, undertanked cargo boats with billions in their holds?

Also what else would you call people who stuff a billion isk into an untanked, cargo expanded T1 hauler that is flying through 0.5 space while AFK?


For the first: Loaded with billions not so commonly, but (afk) cargo boats all over the place:

(edited out KB links before ISD have a field day)

I call them the same because they are either that in most cases; however, they only exist because 00 sec sov holding players don't take their sov serious and require the transport of billions of assets around High sec. If the attitude towards sov would change, a lot of things would change in EVE as a whole without any intervention necessary from CCP. Blink



The specifics were "AFK haulers carrying billions" -- y'know, something like ... oh wait, this isn't C&P, so killmails can't be posted ...

PF- kill ... 2 million (it was empty)
C-6 kill ... 4 million (also empty)
M-O kill ... 20 million (also empty)



zkill -> big kills -> look for freighters in 0.5 sec yesterday. There are at least three carrying a few bil in their holds ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2014-06-06 10:10:12 UTC
Quote:


For the first: Loaded with billions not so commonly, but (afk) cargo boats all over the place: PF-346, 6-CZ49, M-O33E ... or odd haulers with billions in their hold and no protection.

I call them the same because they are either that in most cases; however, they only exist because 00 sec sov holding players don't take their sov serious and require the transport of billions of assets around High sec. If the attitude towards sov would change, a lot of things would change in EVE as a whole without any intervention necessary from CCP. Blink


We dont transport billions in frigile ships, that is almost entirely done by high sec players and no changes to null will change that.

High sec is where the rich pickings are for pirates so thats where we go.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2014-06-06 10:12:21 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Seeing as Hisec is the place to go for low-end minerals (Trit, Pyer, etc.), as well as modules, ammo, sub-cap ship hulls, structures, fuel, and whatever else one would need to hold sov; well, it affects nullsec players pretty heavily.


This attitude is exactly the problem and root for the majority of EVE's problems. You are not and were never supposed to be dependent on High sec for these, but you made yourself this way because it was "more convenient" for the lazy players.


We dont have the manpower to mine enough low ends and untill the next expansion you get better results mining and refining in high sec.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#24 - 2014-06-06 10:18:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


For the first: Loaded with billions not so commonly, but (afk) cargo boats all over the place: PF-346, 6-CZ49, M-O33E ... or odd haulers with billions in their hold and no protection.

I call them the same because they are either that in most cases; however, they only exist because 00 sec sov holding players don't take their sov serious and require the transport of billions of assets around High sec. If the attitude towards sov would change, a lot of things would change in EVE as a whole without any intervention necessary from CCP. Blink


We dont transport billions in frigile ships, that is almost entirely done by high sec players and no changes to null will change that.

High sec is where the rich pickings are for pirates so thats where we go.


No need to 00 sec is necessary to change that. It's the player's attitude that needs to change. Blink

--

baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

Seeing as Hisec is the place to go for low-end minerals (Trit, Pyer, etc.), as well as modules, ammo, sub-cap ship hulls, structures, fuel, and whatever else one would need to hold sov; well, it affects nullsec players pretty heavily.


This attitude is exactly the problem and root for the majority of EVE's problems. You are not and were never supposed to be dependent on High sec for these, but you made yourself this way because it was "more convenient" for the lazy players.


We dont have the manpower to mine enough low ends and untill the next expansion you get better results mining and refining in high sec.


If you don't have the man power with that kind of member base (this is not even including the thousands of players in your renting scheme), you really have serious problems.
The point about better refining yields, although true, goes right back to you (the players): changes to that should have been demanded and pressed for right from the start, not after years of exploiting a broken system.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2014-06-06 10:34:29 UTC
Quote:


If you don't have the man power with that kind of member base (this is not even including the thousands of players in your renting scheme), you really have serious problems.
The point about better refining yields, although true, goes right back to you (the players): changes to that should have been demanded and pressed for right from the start, not after years of exploiting a broken system.


You have no idea just how much material we burn through in peacetime let alone when at war.

Also we have been telling CCP for the last decade that null industry is broken.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#26 - 2014-06-06 11:01:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


If you don't have the man power with that kind of member base (this is not even including the thousands of players in your renting scheme), you really have serious problems.
The point about better refining yields, although true, goes right back to you (the players): changes to that should have been demanded and pressed for right from the start, not after years of exploiting a broken system.


You have no idea just how much material we burn through in peacetime let alone when at war.

Also we have been telling CCP for the last decade that null industry is broken.


Not exact numbers, no, but I can imagine the rough dimensions when several filled-to-the-brim BS fleets or dreadnought fleets die. However, in a 37k member alliance and with, nowadays 3700+ renters, there has to be at least 10k people who can mine minerals at least occasionally, if not as full occupation to support your alliance/coalition and make yourself independent from High sec.

Telling is not demanding and pressing. But honestly, what can you expect. (Not the original source, and I find it intriguing that I cannot find this news item on TMDC any more. I should have made a couple screenshots back then when it was online on TMDC. Roll)

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Dave Stark
#27 - 2014-06-06 11:08:11 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Not exact numbers, no, but I can imagine the rough dimensions when several filled-to-the-brim BS fleets or dreadnought fleets die. However, in a 37k member alliance and with, nowadays 3700+ renters, there has to be at least 10k people who can mine minerals at least occasionally, if not as full occupation to support your alliance/coalition and make yourself independent from High sec.

the problem here though, is that mining is the slowest way to acquire minerals in eve.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#28 - 2014-06-06 11:15:07 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


If you don't have the man power with that kind of member base (this is not even including the thousands of players in your renting scheme), you really have serious problems.
The point about better refining yields, although true, goes right back to you (the players): changes to that should have been demanded and pressed for right from the start, not after years of exploiting a broken system.


You have no idea just how much material we burn through in peacetime let alone when at war.

Also we have been telling CCP for the last decade that null industry is broken.


Not exact numbers, no, but I can imagine the rough dimensions when several filled-to-the-brim BS fleets or dreadnought fleets die. However, in a 37k member alliance and with, nowadays 3700+ renters, there has to be at least 10k people who can mine minerals at least occasionally, if not as full occupation to support your alliance/coalition and make yourself independent from High sec.

Telling is not demanding and pressing. But honestly, what can you expect. (Not the original source, and I find it intriguing that I cannot find this news item on TMDC any more. I should have made a couple screenshots back then when it was online on TMDC. Roll)


In the last war we blew through trillions in minerals in a single battle.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#29 - 2014-06-06 11:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Rivr Luzade wrote:

Not exact numbers, no, but I can imagine the rough dimensions when several filled-to-the-brim BS fleets or dreadnought fleets die. However, in a 37k member alliance and with, nowadays 3700+ renters, there has to be at least 10k people who can mine minerals at least occasionally, if not as full occupation to support your alliance/coalition and make yourself independent from High sec.

Telling is not demanding and pressing. But honestly, what can you expect. (Not the original source, and I find it intriguing that I cannot find this news item on TMDC any more. I should have made a couple screenshots back then when it was online on TMDC. Roll)



Real rough (mineral volume) numbers, because I'm only looking at ME1 BPO


1x Titan, Avatar -- 47 million m3 (35m trit)
1x Super, Nyx -- 13 million m3 (9.8m trit)
1x Dreadnought, Naglfar -- 1.5m m3 (1.0m trit)
1x Carrier, Chimera -- 725k m3 ( 535k trit)


Furthermore, you do realize that all the hisec production relies on nullsec exporting high-ends, right? would be real damn hard to build something (T1) without any Mega ... or something T2 without any morphite...


Edit ... now B-R had

75 titan kills
13 supercarrier kills
365 dreadnought kills
117 carrier kills

35,000,000 X 75 = 2.625 trillion m3 (26 trillion units)
9,800,000 X 13 = 127.4 million m3 (1.27 billion units)
1,000,000 X 365 = 365 million m3 (3.65 billion units)
535,000 X 117 = 66.1 million m3 (661 million units)

For perspective, eve central shows that there are only 30 trillion units of trit up for sale right now (239 trillion in buy orders) ... in other words, B-R amounts to 10.8% of the Jita buy market, or 86.66% of the sell market for Tritanium.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#30 - 2014-06-06 11:37:00 UTC
If you try to claim ganking is too rewarding, and then claim that the sec status hit is nothing because of the tags, then you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Those tags are hilariously expensive. The criteria of what makes a profitable target gets a LOT smaller if you have to take tags into account.

So yeah, don't bullshit me.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Fragglewump
Dust514.
#31 - 2014-06-06 12:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Fragglewump
Arya Regnar wrote:
It ONLY takes 25 people to gank a freighter now.

Man can you imagine? It only takes 500 mil of fittings and ships or so.

Oh it also takes 6 hours and half of cumulative GCC timers all the time they have to wait x25 and 25 tags between them.
They must also be organized and there is no guarantee loot will drop and even if it does someone else can steal it or foil their plans.

Freighters were overbuffed, if you want more go play hello kitty online.



500 mill to gank where are you buying your ships and fittings from probs some you ganked for that price. and its only took 22 pilots 4 bcs and 18 dessies like i said if you bothered to read this and its only 15 mins you have to wait not 6 1/2 hrs :s it happens all at once. and over buffed ummm if one of the biggest ships takes 22 nub pilots to kill one then I say high sec needs to change needs to be more dynamic.
Olivia Berett
Advanced Weapon Supplement League
Fraternity.
#32 - 2014-06-06 13:11:19 UTC
Every thread about crime&punishment in hisec can be answered with one simple idea, think about it:

EVE online has a feature designed exactly to allow people to bring unwanted heat over other people in hisec. A tool that only serves to be used as means to allow people not be able to escape sucessfully any form of combat, and it is almost everytime used to the sole intention of harassing non threatening people: wardec.

You really think that the ppl who designed the wardec feature want anything else in eve than a sociopathic environment ?

There is no reason beyond that scope for a civilized empire to allow people fight off their grudges under their most secure systems, the same systems with innocent and non combative ppl that still can also be victms of that just cuz they are trying to build a corporation.

No mechanics will make ganking less of a general douchebaggery unpunished while those mechanics still based on a douchebaggery inviting philosophy.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#33 - 2014-06-06 13:11:48 UTC
I dont necessarily agree with the OP's solution, but I do think high sec ganking should be nerfed in some way. The issue with ganking is that the gankers pretty much have all the advantages and the control in every gank attempt. If a gank attempt goes horribly wrong, it's normally caused by something the gankers did wrong, not something the victim did right.

I know imma get flamed for this, but because there is nothing available for a target to obtain similar info / advantages on par with info / advantages obtained by gankers, I think ganking should just not be possible in hisec. Go get a hisec profession or move to low / null if you want to kill players for loot. Give hisec to carebears.
Michael Ignis Archangel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-06-06 13:18:31 UTC
Just.... no. If someone can get 10+ pilots in a fleet they deserve whatever victory over a single player they can get. If your freight was escorted by 1 webbing frigate and 8 T1 logi, what do you think would happen?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#35 - 2014-06-06 13:20:39 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
I dont necessarily agree with the OP's solution, but I do think high sec ganking should be nerfed in some way. The issue with ganking is that the gankers pretty much have all the advantages and the control in every gank attempt. If a gank attempt goes horribly wrong, it's normally caused by something the gankers did wrong, not something the victim did right.


- tanked = "target" doing something right
- warping off = "target" doing something right
- lolwtffalcon!? = "target" doing something right
- siege warfare booster = "target" doing something right (depends on what you're flying)
- [other] warfare booster = "target" doing something right (depends on what you're flying)
- logibros = "target" doing something right (depends on what you're flying)
- "instawarp" webbing = "target" doing something right (depends on what you're flying)
- Not using autopilot = "target" doing something right
- Insta undocks = "target" doing something right



chaosgrimm wrote:
I know imma get flamed for this, but because there is nothing available for a target to obtain similar info / advantages on par with info / advantages obtained by gankers, I think ganking should just not be possible in hisec. Go get a hisec profession or move to low / null if you want to kill players for loot. Give hisec to carebears.


See Ultima Online:Trammel Edition for what would happen to EVE.



One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#36 - 2014-06-06 13:35:47 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Velicitia wrote:

- tanked = "target" doing something right
- warping off = "target" doing something right
- lolwtffalcon!? = "target" doing something right
- siege warfare booster = "target" doing something right (depends on what you're flying)
- [other] warfare booster = "target" doing something right (depends on what you're flying)
- logibros = "target" doing something right (depends on what you're flying)
- "instawarp" webbing = "target" doing something right (depends on what you're flying)
- Not using autopilot = "target" doing something right
- Insta undocks = "target" doing something right

gankers can counter all off these.
- tanked -> more dps
- warping -> bump / improve can res / corp spy or awoxer / etc
- lolwtffalcon -> requires engagement, offensive measures arent really an option
- warfare boosters -> the above
- logibros -> high alpha
- "instawarp" -> "instalock"
- Not using autopilot -> improve ganker QoL if a hauler uses it, but not a problem
- insta undocks -> bumps.



Velicitia wrote:


See Ultima Online:Trammel Edition for what would happen to EVE.

Never played and not going to research it. feel free to elaborate though.
Fragglewump
Dust514.
#37 - 2014-06-06 13:41:12 UTC
no one here is really saying stop ganking, its more lets make it more difficult. why does any thing need balancing then ? High sec needs to be balanced just as much as null and the only people really opposed to it are pirates and gankers. ive ganked that many hulks its way to easy to do with 2 ships and like i said had no reason to doublethink it and me and my friend where laughing hard over coms.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#38 - 2014-06-06 13:53:08 UTC
Fragglewump wrote:
no one here is really saying stop ganking, its more lets make it more difficult. why does any thing need balancing then ? High sec needs to be balanced just as much as null and the only people really opposed to it are pirates and gankers. ive ganked that many hulks its way to easy to do with 2 ships and like i said had no reason to doublethink it and me and my friend where laughing hard over coms.


Lol im saying it. I mean honestly, why not?

I always hear about the risk / reward system. What kind of risk does a hi sec ganker take on when killing a miner or industrial?

Make these pkers operate in low and null, where their fleet is at risk. Heck, miners take on more risk than a ganking fleet.....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2014-06-06 14:16:16 UTC
chaosgrimm wrote:
I dont necessarily agree with the OP's solution, but I do think high sec ganking should be nerfed in some way. The issue with ganking is that the gankers pretty much have all the advantages and the control in every gank attempt. If a gank attempt goes horribly wrong, it's normally caused by something the gankers did wrong, not something the victim did right.

I know imma get flamed for this, but because there is nothing available for a target to obtain similar info / advantages on par with info / advantages obtained by gankers, I think ganking should just not be possible in hisec. Go get a hisec profession or move to low / null if you want to kill players for loot. Give hisec to carebears.


EVE isn't for you, perhaps you will be happy with the 100% safe to play star trek online.
chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#40 - 2014-06-06 14:17:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
chaosgrimm wrote:
I dont necessarily agree with the OP's solution, but I do think high sec ganking should be nerfed in some way. The issue with ganking is that the gankers pretty much have all the advantages and the control in every gank attempt. If a gank attempt goes horribly wrong, it's normally caused by something the gankers did wrong, not something the victim did right.

I know imma get flamed for this, but because there is nothing available for a target to obtain similar info / advantages on par with info / advantages obtained by gankers, I think ganking should just not be possible in hisec. Go get a hisec profession or move to low / null if you want to kill players for loot. Give hisec to carebears.


EVE isn't for you, perhaps you will be happy with the 100% safe to play star trek online.

hisec gankers are nearly 100% safe.... so eve isnt for gankers?