These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

LvL 4 FW Mission Imbalance: Issue?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#61 - 2014-06-06 08:59:36 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Who says you have to do the mission solo? This is a MMO after all.

Because a mission isn't a raid. EnB, SWG etc (internet spaceships examples) you didn't need to find more players so you could do a mission. Missions are just generic quests in every other game, same mechanics/coding, and have been in graphical mmo's since the 90's. Now say for incursions, that's more old-school raid style (open world etc), takes more players, and more waiting around etc. So the way it is, it's more traditional for an mmo, even for those games that mostly focused on forced-grouping (e.g. early EQ1), yet still had missions/quests that players could do solo and in small groups when wanted.

And remember, just because you do something such as scaling up missions to be harder/more people required, doesn't necessarily produce players to be doing those missions any longer, and may have the opposite effect.


If you want to do missions solo there are l1's l2's even l3's. You can do them.
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#62 - 2014-06-06 09:24:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Miriya Zakalwe
So basically, the argument for making them harder versus simply fixing the reward is "I don't like the fact that people can solo something they can currently solo. My narrow definition of what is permissible in an MMO does not include this! NERF SOLO!"

Gotcha. Cool story.

I should actually STFU because if they do up the ship requirements for these missions it is going to be pretty awesome, since the killmails for these pve battle barges you guys will be wobbling around lowsec to run them in will be fricking hilarious. We get the occasional BC or T3 kill now; more of those will be fun.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#63 - 2014-06-06 09:37:01 UTC
Deerin wrote:
If you want to do missions solo there are l1's l2's even l3's. You can do them.

Why? I already fly frigs on regular lvl4 security missions, why the heck now do factions missions need to be so much harder? You don't really even try to make a case here, just a strong-arm comment at my post, no substance. Roll

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Eyeslikethunder Umtai
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2014-06-06 09:49:35 UTC
I feel the theme of missions suits stealth bombers


It's normally kill 1-3 large targets and involves a trip to other end of low sec
Which currently favours amarr / minmatar due their smaller low sec area
I have been told their journeys are shorter


On the risk /reward they are equal basically to medium plexes which can be done in destroyers and t2 / faction frigs (I even did one in atron yesterday ) but don't provide system control as a bonus and require a long journey through low sec from pick up station

As someone who does lvl 4 missions In high sec you can do these in bomber 3 an hour i manage And i have never used a ship over 70 million to do them they don't involve long trips in low sec (normally 1 jump in high sec)and rewards are just below t1 missions which is normally the level half the factions are in at any point

I do wonder if their rewards should not be tiered as they don't provide a bonus to system control so why should they benefit from it

I have both killed stealth bombers and died in mine so there is risk insta lockers can shoot them down which are quite common in low sec

I do like the Fw incursion idea above it would create a nice corp activity
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#65 - 2014-06-06 10:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Deerin wrote:


If you want to do missions solo there are l1's l2's even l3's. You can do them.
Actually from your previous post in the thread, you more want missions just removed all together, then extend the plexing system to give out plexing missions. So I don't see why you are saying this here now with what I said, unless you are going back on your previous post and now think that the current mission system should remain... your postings are confusing, sorry.

I still hold to the opinion that adding new things is always better than overwriting or removing old things that work fine. Adding an incursion type system would be nice, adding more to do in FW and with greater challenge. Keeping FW low-SP friendly is a really good thing imo, and flying frigs is really nice. Your previous idea may have merit with plexing... if you still hold to that I'm not sure... but not necessarily something good by removing existing missions.

imo new-more is always better than remove-more and or rewriting things, that constant hamster wheel. More things to do in the game, added, not constantly overwriting things. Harder, more challenging things to do should be an add, and I agree on that point, more challenge, but not at expense of removing things, or making things unfriendly to low-sp in this case and is already established.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#66 - 2014-06-06 10:29:49 UTC
Once again, Webvan speaks for me. Well put.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#67 - 2014-06-06 10:49:25 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Deerin wrote:
If you want to do missions solo there are l1's l2's even l3's. You can do them.

Why? I already fly frigs on regular lvl4 security missions, why the heck now do factions missions need to be so much harder? You don't really even try to make a case here, just a strong-arm comment at my post, no substance. Roll


Don't compare apples to oranges. Doing regular L4's in a frig is extremely time consuming and not someting a low SP character can do. Even then the isk it will yield is nothing compared to what you can gain with a FW L4 mission, which can be easily done a lowish skilled SB.

Sadly, FW in its current form is a means for mains in null / large alliances to fund their activities via low skill alts. You can make enormous amounts of money with minimal risk....and I find it very unfair.

Reducing the rewards of L4's to continue to fly frigs/sb's is pointess....as it is already avaliable in form of lower level missions.

In fact as I stated earlier, I believe best way to do it get rid of pve FW missions altogether. Let the agents give you missions to capture a specific plex in a specific enemy system. When you do, you get additional bonus to your normal LP gains.
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#68 - 2014-06-06 11:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Miriya Zakalwe
Look, it's simple.

There's only two things wrong with FW missions, otherwise they are *fine as is*.

First, the Gal/Cal ones are apparently not balanced with the Min/Amarr.

Second, the rewards are disproportionately large at Tier 4.

So just fix those two things. Make the Gal/Cal ones doable like the Min/Amarr ones, in T2 frigs; then make the reward scaling more sane.

They serve a useful purpose, are fun as is in frigs, and it is not bad to have SOME lucrative reward for a low SP L4; just not as much as it is now.

I'm sorry, but the insistence on removing the ability to solo them in frigs in this thread sounds like very standard MMO-crowd "Nerf Solo" whining to me.

If there is a strong desire for FW raid PvE content then I strongly feel that adding it as a new feature rather than bludgeoning current content into it is the way to go.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#69 - 2014-06-06 11:02:45 UTC
just remove fw missions, no point to have those at all.
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#70 - 2014-06-06 11:04:32 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
just remove fw missions, no point to have those at all.


Actually it pains me to be defending PvE but there is. It incentivizes players to fly much farther into enemy territory than most usually do.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#71 - 2014-06-06 11:14:27 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
How many FW players actually farm the tags in these missions? I know I usually go in, kill the target, warp out.
On another note: I believe FW missions need to be totally rethought. Currently they are abused for easy isk/LP. FW missions should contribute to the cause, should not be easy, and should encourage PvP.

My suggestion is thus:
1. FW missions count toward system capture status.
- If the mission spawns in a system held by your militia, completing said mission reduces the capture status.
- If mission spawns in a system held by enemy militia, completing said mission increases the capture status.
- There will be friendly and enemy rats in the sites. This ensures there will be no huge advantage if someone wants to warp in and engage you. Only advantage will be if the mission owner can get in first and kill off the enemy rats. The enemy and friendly rats will not kill each other, both are there to provide a semblance of balance for pvp.
2. You have to kill all enemy rats. No easy assasination mission.
3. The mission site will still show in space.
4. No EWAR. At all. Ensures balance across the board and encourages pvp.
5. Mission difficulty would be the same as for regular missions.
- L1s can be done in T1 frigs, L2s in destroyers, L3s in cruisers, etc.
6. Sites would be gated and ship size restrictions would apply.
7. Capture percentage would be based on the mission level.
- L1s would give .7%, L2s 1.4%, L3s 2.1%, and L4s 2.8%
- Why you ask? Because it would give people a reason to kill/help the mission runner.
8. LP Payouts would be thus:
- L1 = double LP payout of a novice plex.
- L2 = double LP payout of a small plex
- L3 = double LP payout of a medium plex
- L4 = double LP payout of a large plex
- All affected by tier level. What would the missions entail?

Going in and killing 10-15 rats, maybe more. Types of rats would be based on the missions equivalent plex size. So a L1 would have the frig rat npcs, L2 would have destroyer rats, and so on. That would be my suggestion on FW missions. If anyone else has any other insight on something I missed, or something better, or an addition to the above; please chime in.


That would be pretty dumb because even with an active defender, the guy isn't gonna camp that mission all ******* day long. Eventually you get so many open missions in system that overview looks crazy.

Now, I suppose you could put an alternate completion objective in the mission that if the opposing militia takes out.......then you fail the mission outright. I could live with this.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#72 - 2014-06-06 11:46:23 UTC
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
and it is not bad to have SOME lucrative reward for a low SP L4; just not as much as it is now.


But this is already in the game in form of FW L2-L3's. Doable in assault frigs in pvp fits even. You get some lucurative reward, but not as much as L4's.
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#73 - 2014-06-06 12:08:58 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
and it is not bad to have SOME lucrative reward for a low SP L4; just not as much as it is now.


But this is already in the game in form of FW L2-L3's. Doable in assault frigs in pvp fits even. You get some lucurative reward, but not as much as L4's.


Well, no, actually it's already in the game for L1-L4. It is the desire to nerf soloing the last one that is both sad and predictable.

Meh, who cares. Bring on your blingy killmails, then :)
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#74 - 2014-06-06 12:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Bad Messenger wrote:
just remove fw missions, no point to have those at all.

heck, between this and the above post (line of discussion I was in), remove plexing too. Someone is making ISK, it can't be good, right? We can go back a couple years to where FW was so borked just about no one bothered. Back when CCP was more focused on WiS barbie dolls etc and FW roundtable discussions were a joke. I'd like to see more added to FW, not removed. I was a huge fan/player of the SWG galactic civil war (FW) pre-nge/pre-cu, was a great system. EVE FW surpasses early Ultima Online FW, but still has a ways to go as far as a sandbox FW system in general.

Yeah, I'm no sucker to be taking a BS into low for the most part, passing through many system to run missions, driving an ice cream truck. AF/SB does fine in regular lvl4 security missions, provided we are talking assassination targets like in FW, not a lot of targets to take out. AF will do those regular lvl4 security missions, but it takes a while for a BS or cruiser to do those too, just not as long. This would be pretty much a pirates dream come true, holding up FW missions to last very long. Risk vs reward, plus fun factor, SB does well in that. If it's a matter of some abusing it, I don't see is as a matter of screwing it up for everyone else. I don't like nerfs, I don't like systems being removed. Balancing is fine, but should be in line with the idea that it becomes more accessible, not less. Adding new things for what people want with more challenge, I could stand behind. Not anything like that, unless you just hate FW and want to see it die again.

edit: and to add, I'm not anti-solo or even pro-solo, this isn't like soloing incursions or something. The ability to jump into the game and do something very quickly is/was in every old school mmo, just like this, they have always had quick-in solo stuff you could do. What FW really lacks is bigger things to do, for groups, more epic. Nerfing an existing system (removing or making it harder) won't get that for you. Unimaginative.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-06-06 13:30:10 UTC
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
and it is not bad to have SOME lucrative reward for a low SP L4; just not as much as it is now.


But this is already in the game in form of FW L2-L3's. Doable in assault frigs in pvp fits even. You get some lucurative reward, but not as much as L4's.


Well, no, actually it's already in the game for L1-L4. It is the desire to nerf soloing the last one that is both sad and predictable.

Meh, who cares. Bring on your blingy killmails, then :)

I don't think people really want to nerf things to the point where you can't solo.

I also don't think people want to change the assassination style missions. They make sense in a lot of ways, lore wise and environment wise.

But if L4 rewards are going to remain where they are, then the difficulty needs to be increased. Running them in 40mil boats to make 300mil+ per hour is simply out of whack. Force people to do something other than sig tank the things, and it'd be a lot more balanced.

Aside from the ECM issues, I feel that Gallente missions are about in the right place. Get the rest of the factions up to that level and I think we're good.

Other than that, revisiting / smoothing the Tier system in some way would be a good thing. Drives too many imbalances.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#76 - 2014-06-06 14:08:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Miriya Zakalwe
Veskrashen wrote:
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
and it is not bad to have SOME lucrative reward for a low SP L4; just not as much as it is now.


But this is already in the game in form of FW L2-L3's. Doable in assault frigs in pvp fits even. You get some lucurative reward, but not as much as L4's.


Well, no, actually it's already in the game for L1-L4. It is the desire to nerf soloing the last one that is both sad and predictable.

Meh, who cares. Bring on your blingy killmails, then :)

I don't think people really want to nerf things to the point where you can't solo.

I also don't think people want to change the assassination style missions. They make sense in a lot of ways, lore wise and environment wise.

But if L4 rewards are going to remain where they are, then the difficulty needs to be increased. Running them in 40mil boats to make 300mil+ per hour is simply out of whack. Force people to do something other than sig tank the things, and it'd be a lot more balanced.

Aside from the ECM issues, I feel that Gallente missions are about in the right place. Get the rest of the factions up to that level and I think we're good.

Other than that, revisiting / smoothing the Tier system in some way would be a good thing. Drives too many imbalances.


Nah, this is actually a pretty prototypical cry for nerfs. Humorously so, actually. We have a case here where all that really needs to be done, as you note, is to relax the ridiculous Tier 4 LP reward scaling to a more sane level, and maybe throw the Cal/Gal region an NPC EWAR/missile damage reduction.

Instead, we have people adamantly insisting that T2 frig soloing L4s has to end because REASONS, then waving the "Risk/Reward" flag as if it supports their argument, which would only be true if the Reward were required to be constant, which of course it isn't.

It's just like any other MMO nerf thread, really.

But like I said, meh. Go for it. It only tangentially affects me via my FW alt anyway.
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2014-06-06 14:47:28 UTC
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
Deerin wrote:
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
and it is not bad to have SOME lucrative reward for a low SP L4; just not as much as it is now.


But this is already in the game in form of FW L2-L3's. Doable in assault frigs in pvp fits even. You get some lucurative reward, but not as much as L4's.


Well, no, actually it's already in the game for L1-L4. It is the desire to nerf soloing the last one that is both sad and predictable.

Meh, who cares. Bring on your blingy killmails, then :)

I don't think people really want to nerf things to the point where you can't solo.

I also don't think people want to change the assassination style missions. They make sense in a lot of ways, lore wise and environment wise.

But if L4 rewards are going to remain where they are, then the difficulty needs to be increased. Running them in 40mil boats to make 300mil+ per hour is simply out of whack. Force people to do something other than sig tank the things, and it'd be a lot more balanced.

Aside from the ECM issues, I feel that Gallente missions are about in the right place. Get the rest of the factions up to that level and I think we're good.

Other than that, revisiting / smoothing the Tier system in some way would be a good thing. Drives too many imbalances.


Nah, this is actually a pretty prototypical cry for nerfs. Humorously so, actually. We have a case here where all that really needs to be done, as you note, is to relax the ridiculous Tier 4 LP reward scaling to a more sane level, and maybe throw the Cal/Gal region an NPC EWAR/missile damage reduction.

Instead, we have people adamantly insisting that T2 frig soloing L4s has to end because REASONS, then waving the "Risk/Reward" flag as if it supports their argument, which would only be true if the Reward were required to be constant, which of course it isn't.

It's just like any other MMO nerf thread, really.

But like I said, meh. Go for it. It only tangentially affects me via my FW alt anyway.


Why reduce the gains from lvl 4s when you could just do lvl 3s instead? There is no reason to decrease the income from lvl 4s, just make them harder.

I dont understand why you try to defend that so hard. It makes 0 difference for you if your lvl 4s get nerfed or you get "forced" into lvl 3s. But making lvl 4s harder would open a new playstyle, for the guys with enough balls to do the harder lvl 4s ini more expensive/slower ships for the old income.

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#78 - 2014-06-06 14:50:59 UTC
just balance the risk/reward. Which way you go (harder or easier with corresponding risk) will have proponents and opponents. I personally prefer the higher risk/reward end of the spectrum but at the end of the day don't care that much as long as a good risk/reward balance is found.

JUSTK is recruiting
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#79 - 2014-06-06 14:54:42 UTC
Webvan wrote:

Estella Osoka wrote:
Who says you have to do the mission solo? This is a MMO after all.

Because a mission isn't a raid. EnB, SWG etc (internet spaceships examples) you didn't need to find more players so you could do a mission. Missions are just generic quests in every other game, same mechanics/coding, and have been in graphical mmo's since the 90's. Now say for incursions, that's more old-school raid style (open world etc), takes more players, and more waiting around etc. So the way it is, it's more traditional for an mmo, even for those games that mostly focused on forced-grouping (e.g. early EQ1), yet still had missions/quests that players could do solo and in small groups when wanted.

And remember, just because you do something such as scaling up missions to be harder/more people required, doesn't necessarily produce players to be doing those missions any longer, and may have the opposite effect.


EVE is not EnB or SWG. EVE is a PVP-centric MMO. Just because that is the way it was done in other MMOs does not mean that is the way it should be done in EVE.

Because people have been able to do missions solo in hisec has really screwed this game over. It causes people to assume that hisec should be a safe area, and ganks and mission invasion shouldn't be allowed. It also puts them in the mindset that all missions should be soloable, even L5s. The only PVE content in the game that isn't soloable are incursions and some of the cosmic anoms. All the missions in EVE need to be rethought and fixed so that players have to do them in pvp fits with other players.
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#80 - 2014-06-06 15:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Miriya Zakalwe
Charlie Firpol wrote:

Why reduce the gains from lvl 4s when you could just do lvl 3s instead? There is no reason to decrease the income from lvl 4s, just make them harder.

I dont understand why you try to defend that so hard. It makes 0 difference for you if your lvl 4s get nerfed or you get "forced" into lvl 3s. But making lvl 4s harder would open a new playstyle, for the guys with enough balls to do the harder lvl 4s ini more expensive/slower ships for the old income.


Ahh, I think I see your confusion, I might not have been clear. I never said "reduce the income of the L4s to be the same as current L3s". I suggested making them more sane, instead of the current crazy top tier scaling factor. They should still be lucrative, more so than highsec L4s or the current L3s, even if doable quickly in frigates. The risk is substantially greater even if the rats are easy. The rats have little to do with the danger here, after all.

The *only * reason I care about this is that they do draw players out to, frankly, be targets. If you take away the ability to solo L4s what I see happening is far fewer players doing missions in general, which I think would be unfortunate, as it pulls them all over the warzone.

I agree with everyone that the risk/reward is currently out of whack. Completely. With plexing too, for that matter.