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Kronos: Welcome back, unkillable supercarriers.

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Makalu Zarya
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#81 - 2014-06-05 23:32:59 UTC
so let me get this right....my 25b isk ship no longer sucks at killing 300m isk ship that for some bizarre reason is able to pin me on the field.

cool...i approve...now please can my 100b isk ship also be able to kill them just as effectively.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2014-06-05 23:47:35 UTC
Nobody will ever fit a nyx that way because to run that would suck up all your available internal space holding spare capital sized rep mods, and if they did happen to run that fit, you'd simply kill the 2 ships in question as they'd have nearly zero chance of surviving any punishment.

Calm down chicken little, the sky is still up there.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#83 - 2014-06-06 00:25:59 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them.

The Rules:
11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#84 - 2014-06-06 02:06:43 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
So basically you point is that a super carrier can kill a tech 2 cruiser.

Very interesting.....


Two super carriers

Pretty much this

I'm sorry but a ship in this class should be able to crush a cruiser. With all the downsides to flying these it's about time they get an upside.

If you want to gank a super why are you limited to two tackle ships? I see this is a failure on the attacking fleet to bring sufficient tackle.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#85 - 2014-06-06 04:34:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
Bill Lane wrote:
What do you want? Why in the world should a super not be able to do this? I swear if half the complainers got their way concerning supers and carriers, the only thing they could ever hit would be other caps. Explain to me why so many think that you should be able to gank a super with less than 5 subcaps, with no way for the cap ship to defend itself?

It's a super-carrier for pete's sake. IT SHOULD BE OP!



In nulsec, I doubt anybody would give a ****.

In lowsec though, the only counter would be a bridge bringing in lots of other caps and several heavy dictors. They were nerfed because they were solo pwnmobiles and this buff is more than a bit extreme.

Having the EHP of a pos, the ability to warp at will, AND huge dps that can be applied easily to the only ship that can hold it down is a bit much.

IIshira wrote:
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
So basically you point is that a super carrier can kill a tech 2 cruiser.

Very interesting.....


Two super carriers

Pretty much this

I'm sorry but a ship in this class should be able to crush a cruiser. With all the downsides to flying these it's about time they get an upside.

If you want to gank a super why are you limited to two tackle ships? I see this is a failure on the attacking fleet to bring sufficient tackle.


Yeah because risk free pwnvp should have a pricetag.

What exactly are the "downsides"?
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#86 - 2014-06-06 05:50:54 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Bill Lane wrote:
What do you want? Why in the world should a super not be able to do this? I swear if half the complainers got their way concerning supers and carriers, the only thing they could ever hit would be other caps. Explain to me why so many think that you should be able to gank a super with less than 5 subcaps, with no way for the cap ship to defend itself?

It's a super-carrier for pete's sake. IT SHOULD BE OP!



In nulsec, I doubt anybody would give a ****.

In lowsec though, the only counter would be a bridge bringing in lots of other caps and several heavy dictors. They were nerfed because they were solo pwnmobiles and this buff is more than a bit extreme.

Having the EHP of a pos, the ability to warp at will, AND huge dps that can be applied easily to the only ship that can hold it down is a bit much.

IIshira wrote:
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
So basically you point is that a super carrier can kill a tech 2 cruiser.

Very interesting.....


Two super carriers

Pretty much this

I'm sorry but a ship in this class should be able to crush a cruiser. With all the downsides to flying these it's about time they get an upside.

If you want to gank a super why are you limited to two tackle ships? I see this is a failure on the attacking fleet to bring sufficient tackle.


Yeah because risk free pwnvp should have a pricetag.

What exactly are the "downsides"?


Umm how about can't dock so it's never safe?

I'm sorry but it's the biggest ship in the game and you're crying OP because it can't be permanently held down by a single cruiser??

If a fleet can't bring more than two ships to tackle it they don't deserve the kill...
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#87 - 2014-06-06 06:09:39 UTC
IIshira wrote:


Umm how about can't dock so it's never safe?

I'm sorry but it's the biggest ship in the game and you're crying OP because it can't be permanently held down by a single cruiser??

If a fleet can't bring more than two ships to tackle it they don't deserve the kill...

yeah being a pos all day is not safe at all. nope. nada.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#88 - 2014-06-06 06:12:11 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
IIshira wrote:


Umm how about can't dock so it's never safe?

I'm sorry but it's the biggest ship in the game and you're crying OP because it can't be permanently held down by a single cruiser??

If a fleet can't bring more than two ships to tackle it they don't deserve the kill...

yeah being a pos all day is not safe at all. nope. nada.

Yeah because no one has figured out how to destroy a POS in Eve yet...
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#89 - 2014-06-06 06:25:43 UTC
IIshira wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
IIshira wrote:


Umm how about can't dock so it's never safe?

I'm sorry but it's the biggest ship in the game and you're crying OP because it can't be permanently held down by a single cruiser??

If a fleet can't bring more than two ships to tackle it they don't deserve the kill...

yeah being a pos all day is not safe at all. nope. nada.

Yeah because no one has figured out how to destroy a POS in Eve yet...

YEAH because you have at least 1 day and some hours to get a new pos up.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#90 - 2014-06-06 06:33:10 UTC
IIshira wrote:

Umm how about can't dock so it's never safe?

I'm sorry but it's the biggest ship in the game and you're crying OP because it can't be permanently held down by a single cruiser??

If a fleet can't bring more than two ships to tackle it they don't deserve the kill...


They aren't the biggest ships in the game. Titans are more expensive and aren't of much use against anything smaller than a capital. They even removed the dronebays on them and dreads......and removed the non-fighter/bomber drones from the supercarriers for a good reason.

Also I was unaware that a super cap wasn't safe in the forcefield of a pos or logged out on a "parking lot" alt.

Oh boy you sure schooled me.


IIshira wrote:

If a fleet can't bring more than two ships to tackle it they don't deserve the kill...


One SC isn't all that bad. A group of them IS a real problem and the singular ship class that can hold them down in lowsec that was introduced specifically to pin them down has a very exploitable weakness in the cycle time of it's module that makes it extremely vulnerable. A small group of them can shred a heavy dictor or even a group of heavy dictors.

And I'm sorry, but I have to cry foul if you need to bring (and have on standby 24/7) a dozen guys in a specific ship class (plus all the other crap you need) to take down a single SC.


Expense should not mean invulnerability.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#91 - 2014-06-06 08:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Maeltstome
Reading all this reminded me of one thing: Supercaptials and combat with them is *boring*.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#92 - 2014-06-06 08:23:39 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
A small group of them can shred a heavy dictor or even a group of heavy dictors.


Topkek?
Archeras Umangiar
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#93 - 2014-06-06 09:06:10 UTC
Looks at this fit... can you see it? can you see it? how terrible it is... optimal range scripts seems that fit has been made in 5seconds without thinking about IT!
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#94 - 2014-06-06 09:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
A ship really shouldn't be able to hit a ship several classes below it reliably without support imo.. Completely ruins any use for combined arms and leaves us with really really boring single ship fleets. Game design that ends up with the best fleet being the one where everyone can bring the biggest ship is terrible.

Eve is already really really bad at combined arms because the tracking formula is ****, this doesn't really help.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#95 - 2014-06-06 13:06:27 UTC
The issue wasn never a HICs ability to pin down supers indefinetly, but rather it's ability to tackle a super for the whole cycle without dying. It's stupid that HICs, the only ship to tackle them at all, has small odds of surviving a single bubble-cycle.
In null, any dictor can launch bubbles and cloak up or receive reps, in low though, any group of nomad supers is now really hard to tackle or keep tackled with Hictors getting blapped off field by friggin fighters.
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-06-06 13:41:55 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
IIshira wrote:

Umm how about can't dock so it's never safe?

I'm sorry but it's the biggest ship in the game and you're crying OP because it can't be permanently held down by a single cruiser??

If a fleet can't bring more than two ships to tackle it they don't deserve the kill...


They aren't the biggest ships in the game. Titans are more expensive and aren't of much use against anything smaller than a capital. They even removed the dronebays on them and dreads......and removed the non-fighter/bomber drones from the supercarriers for a good reason.

Also I was unaware that a super cap wasn't safe in the forcefield of a pos or logged out on a "parking lot" alt.

Oh boy you sure schooled me.


IIshira wrote:

If a fleet can't bring more than two ships to tackle it they don't deserve the kill...


One SC isn't all that bad. A group of them IS a real problem and the singular ship class that can hold them down in lowsec that was introduced specifically to pin them down has a very exploitable weakness in the cycle time of it's module that makes it extremely vulnerable. A small group of them can shred a heavy dictor or even a group of heavy dictors.

And I'm sorry, but I have to cry foul if you need to bring (and have on standby 24/7) a dozen guys in a specific ship class (plus all the other crap you need) to take down a single SC.


Expense should not mean invulnerability.



Expense doesn't mean invulnerability. This doesn't compare to the old log off mechanics where you couldn't kill them. It's just harder to kill. I'm sorry if you think a super carrier should be an easy kill.

Yes you can no longer fly around solo in a cruiser, tackle one, annouce in some Eve chat what you've done and wait 30 minutes for a fleet to form.

Oh no if there's a group of them maybe you need more tackle than for a solo one.... Whaaaaat you mean I can't fly into a fleet of super carriers and tackle one while being invulnerable? No fair!!




IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#97 - 2014-06-06 13:44:06 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
A ship really shouldn't be able to hit a ship several classes below it reliably without support imo..


You better tell CCP to make sentry drones not fit in battleships...
Athraws
Rising Thunder
#98 - 2014-06-06 14:25:08 UTC
IIshira wrote:

Expense doesn't mean invulnerability. This doesn't compare to the old log off mechanics where you couldn't kill them. It's just harder to kill. I'm sorry if you think a super carrier should be an easy kill.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/capital-ship-balancing/

CCP removed their drone utility, nerfed fighter sig res, and removed 20% of super hp, stating they were too hard to kill, and should be vulnerable. But that was probably because they were too easy to kill.

IIshira wrote:

Yes you can no longer fly around solo in a cruiser, tackle one, announce in some Eve chat what you've done and wait 30 minutes for a fleet to form.

Oh no if there's a group of them maybe you need more tackle than for a solo one.... Whaaaaat you mean I can't fly into a fleet of super carriers and tackle one while being invulnerable? No fair!!

Agreed. Supercapitals should have no need to rely on their own support fleet. They should just be able to kill everything by themselves.

Seriously though, the problem here isn't "OH NOES MAI CRUIZER CAN'T HOLD THE SUPER FOR 30 MINUTEZ!" as you imply. The problem is I strongly doubt a pair of hictors pointing a pair of supers, for example, would make it through their first freaking cycle time on a consistent basis, much less their second.

And if that super pilot in your scenario is daft enough to not be forming his own fleet in those "30 minutes" to clear the tackle and save him, he SHOULD die. Supers should have and require support fleets in order to operate effectively, and to counter enemy subcaps. They are not, and never were intended to be, solo ships, and there's no reason anyone should be flying them that way.

"If you want to deal with sub-capitals, you should bring your own sub-capitals or a carrier." -- CCP, 10.10.2011
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#99 - 2014-06-06 15:02:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghaustyl Kathix
Makalu Zarya wrote:
so let me get this right....my 25b isk ship no longer sucks at killing 300m isk ship that for some bizarre reason is able to pin me on the field.
So let me get this right.... this 300mil ISK ship for some bizarre reason is now unable to do its job?

This attitude of "It's more expensive, therefore it should be beat all things less expensive" is basically World of Warcraft. The null-sec blobbers spend enough time laughing about mission-runners with officer missile launchers, but it seems the supercarrier pilots there have the same attitude.
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#100 - 2014-06-06 16:06:49 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
Makalu Zarya wrote:
so let me get this right....my 25b isk ship no longer sucks at killing 300m isk ship that for some bizarre reason is able to pin me on the field.
So let me get this right.... this 300mil ISK ship for some bizarre reason is now unable to do its job?


If you've never gone up against a super carrier before, I can assure you (speaking from plenty of experience) that a single HIC has never been able to do a sufficient job. Even a single-ECCM'd HIC has a decent chance of being ECM bursted by the super, which means you always need a minimum of 2 HICs that can stay > 20km from each other.

Combine that with the super always being able to neut out a HIC (if said super is not crap-fit and the HIC pilot isn't paying attention), adding DPS to the mix doesn't change much... you still need multiple HICs to assuredly tackle a super, as was always the case anyway.

Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:

This attitude of "It's more expensive, therefore it should be beat all things less expensive" is basically World of Warcraft. The null-sec blobbers spend enough time laughing about mission-runners with officer missile launchers, but it seems the supercarrier pilots there have the same attitude.


You're thinking in a one-on-one scenario - things aren't always that equitable nor should they be. IF you want to secure tackle on a super, you need, and have always needed, multiple HICs (or a combo with dictors if in 0.0)

Nothing has really changed.