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Why my friends didn't started to play EVE
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w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#61 - 2014-05-24 12:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: w3ak3stl1nk
Anathema Device wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
So far i see old people that have multimillion sp characters saying NO about giving <1mln sp to new players Roll

There still hasn't been a good argument for giving more skill points at character creation.

Also no matter how young or old a character is in EVE there will always be somebody in here that can destroy their ship. Boosting players so that they get into a shiny ship earlier doesn't solve the problem of combat. It doesn't matter what skill points are given to an entry level player they remain at a disadvantage. If you boost all the new players they are still behind all the older players. It doesn't address the problem. Skill points are not going to solve the problem of lack of good tutors. Better to scrap all NPC corporations, create player corporations at initial login so the new players can create their content.

Player corporations are not the answer they are part of the problem.

Is that my two cents or yours?
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#62 - 2014-05-24 13:24:09 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
So far i see old people that have multimillion sp characters saying NO about giving <1mln sp to new players Roll



But.... You can give new players 1 million SP immediately(ish)

The prototype cerebral enhancer that comes with the Eve starter packs (example, there are many varieties though) combined with some +2 implants which can easily be bought with the isk from the training missions will easily give any new player 1 million SP in their first 2 weeks WITHOUT a Remap. That's pretty frickin' awesome, for a starter pack that also contains your first month's subscription, maybe a special edition ship and babby's first set of skillbooks.

They stay on sale for 5 bucks. I used one to start the game a mere 6 months ago. Worked great. After my first two weeks I had already made enough isk to buy a Standard Cerebral enhancer in the contracts (200 mil) and used my first Remap. By the end of my first month I had 1.8 mil SP.

That I had thrown to the winds on 160 different skills. Lol

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#63 - 2014-05-24 14:59:52 UTC
Give a newbie 20 M SP and they still wouldn't know what to do. Eve basics as described in tutorials are still very bad. They are slightly better than before, but still bad. Newbies don't even understand what low sec is even after they get blown up for going there...

Is that my two cents or yours?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#64 - 2014-05-24 16:20:17 UTC
Just because the majority of ppl don't like this game doesn't mean it's bad, all it means that it's not aimed at most people. If folks don't enjoy EVE, that's fine... nothing wrong with. Trying to change it into WOW in space IS wrong.
Iain Cariaba
#65 - 2014-05-24 17:26:31 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:

Simple evemon check shows it takes 4 months for a weapon system and another 5 for a ship, add 3 months for basic fitting skills and 2 months for defensive system your ship uses, then there's also drone skills if you want to be comparable to other people flying your ship, which are extra 2-4 months depending on drone size, maybe propulsion and hull skills for another month, capacitor skills for one more month if your ship is cap-tight... we're looking at 1.5 years of focused training during which the character is useless, or 2-3 years if you want to make it useful in the meantime.


You must be using a different version of Evemon than I do.

Time to t2 projectile guns on a toon of mine with no gunnery skills, ie my hauler alt, is less than 7 days. I fail to see how you could get 4 months for a weapon system unless you're trying to train t2 large guns. New players shouldn't be trying to train to large guns right away.

Time to racial assault frigate is 23 days. While this does seem daunting, you don't need to be in a t2 frigate to be usefull no matter if you're doing pvp or pve. This 23 days also includes two of those basic fitting skills you say take 3 months.

As for defensive systems, the defensive modules geared towards frigs and destys mostly need their skills at 3 or 4, not 5. This takes a day or two.

Remember, this post is about new players, not how long it will take you to get into a marauder. New players can be in a frig or desty contributing to either their pvp corp or their wallet with pve in two weeks if they insist on t2 guns, which are not necessary. All those extra support and drone skills are nice, but not totally necessary. Characters at this stage are new, not useless.

On a semi-related side note, the toon i used to get my numbers here, which has only trained her racial industrial skill, can sit in a fully t2 fit Golem in 265 days, which is still far less than the 1.5 years you insist is required to have a toon be useful.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-05-24 20:59:41 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:

On a semi-related side note, the toon i used to get my numbers here, which has only trained her racial industrial skill, can sit in a fully t2 fit Golem in 265 days, which is still far less than the 1.5 years you insist is required to have a toon be useful.


Similarly if I quit any S&I training and focused on pure combat ship skills I'd be in an ishtar with T2 drones in about 20 days from now. That's on a 7 month old char that's spent half the training time on S&I and science skills. I'm pretty sure I could have been in the ishtar a few months ago if I'd purely focussed on that and I doubt anyone would think an ishtar in the fleet is useless!

I totally agree that a 2 week old char in a cheap fit t1 tackle frig can be useful in a fleet let alone one with 3 months focused training behind them. I also firmly believe it would take the new player the 3 months to actually learn how to use the skills properly. training is currently pretty well balanced in my view.
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#67 - 2014-05-24 23:45:40 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Just because the majority of ppl don't like this game doesn't mean it's bad, all it means that it's not aimed at most people. If folks don't enjoy EVE, that's fine... nothing wrong with. Trying to change it into WOW in space IS wrong.

That is such a WOW elitist comment.

Is that my two cents or yours?
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2014-05-25 11:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Digger Pollard
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:

Simple evemon check shows it takes 4 months for a weapon system and another 5 for a ship, add 3 months for basic fitting skills and 2 months for defensive system your ship uses, then there's also drone skills if you want to be comparable to other people flying your ship, which are extra 2-4 months depending on drone size, maybe propulsion and hull skills for another month, capacitor skills for one more month if your ship is cap-tight... we're looking at 1.5 years of focused training during which the character is useless, or 2-3 years if you want to make it useful in the meantime.


You must be using a different version of Evemon than I do.

Time to t2 projectile guns on a toon of mine with no gunnery skills, ie my hauler alt, is less than 7 days. I fail to see how you could get 4 months for a weapon system unless you're trying to train t2 large guns. New players shouldn't be trying to train to large guns right away.

Time to racial assault frigate is 23 days. While this does seem daunting, you don't need to be in a t2 frigate to be usefull no matter if you're doing pvp or pve. This 23 days also includes two of those basic fitting skills you say take 3 months.

As for defensive systems, the defensive modules geared towards frigs and destys mostly need their skills at 3 or 4, not 5. This takes a day or two.

Remember, this post is about new players, not how long it will take you to get into a marauder. New players can be in a frig or desty contributing to either their pvp corp or their wallet with pve in two weeks if they insist on t2 guns, which are not necessary. All those extra support and drone skills are nice, but not totally necessary. Characters at this stage are new, not useless.

On a semi-related side note, the toon i used to get my numbers here, which has only trained her racial industrial skill, can sit in a fully t2 fit Golem in 265 days, which is still far less than the 1.5 years you insist is required to have a toon be useful.


You're talking about barely squeezing into the said ships and fits, which in practice turns into being useless in them.
I'd say without at least 15m SP even trying something above disposable T1 frig is stupid, due to being extremely underwhelming in any role on account of SP lack. And 15m SP is, in fact, 2 years.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#69 - 2014-05-25 13:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bohneik Itohn
Digger Pollard wrote:


You're talking about barely squeezing into the said ships and fits, which in practice turns into being useless in them.
I'd say without at least 15m SP even trying something above disposable T1 frig is stupid, due to being extremely underwhelming in any role on account of SP lack. And 15m SP is, in fact, 2 years.


I've done 10 mil in the last 6 months, and I've got some pretty good numbers on my T3....

Edit: Before postulating about new player training/the difficulty of new player training. Maybe try asking one? It seems things have changed since you guys joined Eve.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2014-05-25 14:15:39 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:
15m SP is, in fact, 2 years.


I'm just about at 14 mil now and the char was cloneborn 20/08/2013, so that's 9 months roughly (wow that time went quicly!)..How did your 15 mil take 2 years???
Digger Pollard
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-05-25 14:50:04 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:
15m SP is, in fact, 2 years.


I'm just about at 14 mil now and the char was cloneborn 20/08/2013, so that's 9 months roughly (wow that time went quicly!)..How did your 15 mil take 2 years???


This character is 1.5 years and it doesn't have 15 mil. Though I admit it's almost there, but it took some costly implants.
Try going without +5's.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#72 - 2014-05-25 15:26:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bohneik Itohn
Digger Pollard wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:
15m SP is, in fact, 2 years.


I'm just about at 14 mil now and the char was cloneborn 20/08/2013, so that's 9 months roughly (wow that time went quicly!)..How did your 15 mil take 2 years???


This character is 1.5 years and it doesn't have 15 mil. Though I admit it's almost there, but it took some costly implants.
Try going without +5's.


+4's, and up until a couple months ago it was +3's and not even a full set.

Edit: A full set of +5's would only save me 20 days on my 2 year plan without a remap. More like 10 after a mid-plan remap.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2014-05-25 16:10:03 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Digger Pollard wrote:
15m SP is, in fact, 2 years.


I'm just about at 14 mil now and the char was cloneborn 20/08/2013, so that's 9 months roughly (wow that time went quicly!)..How did your 15 mil take 2 years???


This character is 1.5 years and it doesn't have 15 mil. Though I admit it's almost there, but it took some costly implants.
Try going without +5's.


I've never used above +3's
Spacemover
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2014-05-25 18:03:02 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
So far i see old people that have multimillion sp characters saying NO about giving <1mln sp to new players Roll


i have to admit i like that idea would make new players not start and get that "well you are crap for at least a month, then fly raven"-attitude. there would have to be some carefull thinking about how to bring it in tha game (frigs 5? really thats just some millions away from almost all t2 frigs... would be used mostly by old players buying covert ops and interceptor skills for their alts :P ) but thats work for the CSM and CCP.

and in response to your thing above: you got a positive answer from an 2004 char with enough skillpoints ;)
w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#75 - 2014-05-26 02:39:28 UTC
Maybe start with a pool of skill points and skill books to start. Then little tutorial manuals on what to train depending on what you want to focus on. They learn to inject skills and how to input skills in queue from the start. Same skills current people start with just in the form of skill books.

Is that my two cents or yours?
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2014-05-26 03:47:15 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Yes - you are right , but you just stated that someone created content for you.
You found a person that was helping you a lot - not only by advice , but also being with you on the same grid.

I am talking about people that don't will not go this way , or will not get this kind of help.

EVE is a game designed to promote and reward community play above ALL ELSE. So if a new player got an older one to sit on grid to help them THATS WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO

As much as I try to respect "varying play styles", intentionally trying to "solo" or "avoid" groups/commitment/interaction, IS playing EVE wrong, and anyone who argues that is even more daft than a politician.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#77 - 2014-05-26 05:36:48 UTC
You don't need a bunch of free stuff to start playing EVE.

Ignoring PvP, which is most certainly best done in groups and a character less than an hour old can be instrumental in a kill with tackle, there is no reason why someone should not be out in space within minutes exploring EVE and learning the ropes.

Just running through the tutorial gives a decent base of skills to begin any number of PvE career paths, and a few free ships to get you started trying them out. You are hardly limited to rookie ships.

The key is to not worry about what I can do with 70 million SP. This is not a game about comparing levels. Just go and have fun. Spend a little time setting up some inventory filters for your loot, pull out the meta4, and maybe the meta3 items before reprocessing the rest for sale, and use that to experiment with fits while you train up.

You can do most level 1 missions in a rookie ship and a civilian gun. Tools like an MTU to make your life easier while living off mission loot do not even need skills to use. You get given a venture in the tutorial for mining. Exploration frigates cost pennies to buy, and even less to make. The skills to experiment with all the playstyles on offer take very little time to train, and are not expensive.

It's only once you have chosen a career path to delve deeper into that you run into long train times and a benefit to training lots of support skills.

EVE, or at least an unfortunate number of it's player base, is a bit focused on the douchy side of PvP, but it's a sandbox game and the fun of it is whatever you decide to make with it.
Iain Cariaba
#78 - 2014-05-26 05:45:17 UTC
Digger Pollard wrote:
You're talking about barely squeezing into the said ships and fits, which in practice turns into being useless in them.
I'd say without at least 15m SP even trying something above disposable T1 frig is stupid, due to being extremely underwhelming in any role on account of SP lack. And 15m SP is, in fact, 2 years.


How is flying a t2 fit frig barely squeezing into it? IIRC, t2 fits are about the best you can get. As far as 2 years for 15m SP, the same alt I used for earlier numbers will crank out 1800 SP/hr, this is with no implants and evenly distributed attributes as I've never done a remap on it. So let's do a little math...

15m SP / 1800 SP/hr = 833 and 1/3 hrs, which when divided by 24 hours in a day, leaves us with a smidge over 347 days.

That's less then 1 year, although admittedly not by much, to hit 15m SP without putting any effort into making your trains go faster.

Digger Pollard wrote:
This character is 1.5 years and it doesn't have 15 mil. Though I admit it's almost there, but it took some costly implants.
Try going without +5's.


Maybe you should have spent some time in the NPC corp asking questions on how to play the game before forming your own corporation and setting of on your own. Your inability to attain SP at a decent rate appears to be from your own lack of planning and/or experience.

Before you decry the entire system as broken, perhaps you should discover what you are doing wrong. Send me a message in game, I will help you if I can.
Anathema Device
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2014-06-06 04:42:11 UTC
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:
Player corporations are not the answer they are part of the problem.

The NPC Corporations provide little social benefit for a new player that is not addressed by joining a noob Corporation like EVE University. Scrap all NPC Corps and start each character in a training organizations. Doesn't have to be EVE University could be any Corp willing to take unskilled players.This integrates new players into a real social structure.

If a player drops Corp they don't get dumped into an NPC Corp but are left without a Corp and get slugged with higher and escalating taxes and charges. The more senior (older) the player the higher the taxes and charges. Cap the taxes at 80% of income. If CCP can't contemplate EVE without NPC Corps then allow NPC Corps to be WarDec'ed.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2014-06-06 11:18:11 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Yes - you are right , but you just stated that someone created content for you.
You found a person that was helping you a lot - not only by advice , but also being with you on the same grid.

I am talking about people that don't will not go this way , or will not get this kind of help.

EVE is a game designed to promote and reward community play above ALL ELSE. So if a new player got an older one to sit on grid to help them THATS WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO

As much as I try to respect "varying play styles", intentionally trying to "solo" or "avoid" groups/commitment/interaction, IS playing EVE wrong, and anyone who argues that is even more daft than a politician.


There is no 'playing the game wrong' since it is a sandbox where each player does as they wish. If they achieve their own goals in whatever means suits them then they are playing the game 'right' as far as they are concerned. I generally play solo and am currently turning over enough isk to plex two chars per month. That's fine for me so does that measn I win Eve? Of course not...but it means I'm playing the game right for my needs and wants from Eve. Those may of course change at any time but for now my style suits me just fine.

Can I get voted in as Prime Minister/President of New Eden now? By your judgement of politicians I'm generally considered over-qualified...