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EVE's "No Fight" Culture

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#181 - 2014-06-04 01:43:48 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Hold on a second!

I told you it's likely I'm busy, because of clothes!
It's not like I'm gone or something!
Poof, magically disappeared!


You can still always find me in Hek
and I'll most likely be less busy then.

Sadly, the new clothing options are far more limited than I hoped. :(



Ok tomorrow then Big smile
And unfortunately... most eve expansions are so lack luster.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#182 - 2014-06-04 01:49:02 UTC
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:

...quoted text...


I sent you an eve mail. The instructional vids there should be helpful for both yourself and your corp. When in doubt, just buy a shuttle. They are so small they are very hard to catch. If everyone in your corp is flying around in shuttles the war targets will have very little to do with themselves.

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Solecist Project
#183 - 2014-06-04 02:49:49 UTC
Chewytowel Haklar wrote:
It's frustrating having to wait to max out the appropriate skills for just ONE THING like focusing on frigate dps and skills only for a week or so when I want to do other stuff and explore the game. Basically I don't really want to put all my points into just one thing at first but many to diversify.
Then don't.

Nobody skills to V through in one go at the beginning.

You can easily skill lots of things to 1 just to be able to use them. Add riggs to the mix after that,
which takes a little longer, and you'll have even more options.

You can skill for the ability to use most stuff within the very first day, or two, easily.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Solj RichPopolous
Silent Havok.
H A R D L I N E R S
#184 - 2014-06-04 03:21:06 UTC
Didn't read the other posts but I can attest that EVE players have an aversion to fighting, at least the majority (95% or so).
Solecist Project
#185 - 2014-06-05 01:25:34 UTC
Wow, this is still a thing!

I'm sorry, but as you might have noticed I'm rather busy momentarily.

I haven't forgotten about you. (:

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#186 - 2014-06-05 01:26:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Solecist Project wrote:
Wow, this is still a thing!

I'm sorry, but as you might have noticed I'm rather busy momentarily.

I haven't forgotten about you. (:



Np i am looking forward to it :P

I am still in hek and afterwards I will wander into low sec in search for that other guy. This is turning into quite an eve experiment.

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Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2014-06-05 04:18:39 UTC
I get PvP every day i log in..

Don't get why people find it so hard..
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2014-06-05 13:09:44 UTC
Mr. E, let's say two samurais meet at dawn to fight a duel. The rules are based on cultural honor traditions and the strict framework of the fight comes with its own set of challenges. Few samurai have survived a long string of duels (see Musashi), so we can guess that duelling is dangerous and challenging.

But duelling is not like fighting in a war. Anything can happen. People can come at you from anywhere. They may not even fight you. They may torture you, or kill you from the other side of the continent without ever picking up a rifle.

I think a lot of people who responded to you in thread are competent PVPers. I think what their objection might be is your characterization of "war" (which is EVE's free for all PVP) as cowardly. I think that if your mind is open to the idea that war is different from duelling.. then others will step up to interact with you on more positive terms.

The concern is that if you fight a duel and then conclude: "See? War is for cowards. Duelling is for awesome people."

p.s. I did enjoy our fight and would be happy to fight you in another ship like an Inty or another Dessie anytime. I personally have poor situational awareness, I forget things I've learned, and I'm not (yet) very successful at war.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#189 - 2014-06-05 18:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Redacted

Your reply to Sibs had more than enough holes in it, I didnt even need to say anything

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#190 - 2014-06-05 18:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Sibyyl wrote:
Mr. E, let's say two samurais meet at dawn to fight a duel. The rules are based on cultural honor traditions and the strict framework of the fight comes with its own set of challenges. Few samurai have survived a long string of duels (see Musashi), so we can guess that duelling is dangerous and challenging.

But duelling is not like fighting in a war. Anything can happen. People can come at you from anywhere. They may not even fight you. They may torture you, or kill you from the other side of the continent without ever picking up a rifle.

I think a lot of people who responded to you in thread are competent PVPers. I think what their objection might be is your characterization of "war" (which is EVE's free for all PVP) as cowardly. I think that if your mind is open to the idea that war is different from duelling.. then others will step up to interact with you on more positive terms.

The concern is that if you fight a duel and then conclude: "See? War is for cowards. Duelling is for awesome people."

p.s. I did enjoy our fight and would be happy to fight you in another ship like an Inty or another Dessie anytime. I personally have poor situational awareness, I forget things I've learned, and I'm not (yet) very successful at war.




I get what you are saying and I respect it. And as far as I know when two Samarai fought they often dealt each other deadly blows before it ended. Not very smart I admit.

And I agree... all is not fair in love and war, it is not supposed to be.

A coward with a crossbow will kill the bravest knight in his polished shining armor. But that is not what we are talking about here. The term "risk adverse" and "A fair roll of the dice" is more comparable to a UFC fight, a boxing match or hell... even paintballs. Neither myself or my opponent will die. Neither myself or my opponent will lose a ship or amount of ISK that cannot be easily replaced. Said fight can be 1v1, 2v2 or 10v10 with equal amounts of RR or ECM in each fleet.


So if the ships are essentially worthless (especially on the test server) then let me ask you this, what precisely is on the line? What is it that a person is unwilling to risk by committing themselves to a match they are not certain to win? A match where skill in flight and intelligence in the fitting window will not be the deciding factors?

I invite you to form a hypothesis.

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Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#191 - 2014-06-05 20:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
Just responding to the OP, as I have not caught up with the thread yet.

Regarding the encounter you describe on Sisi, it baffles me too, but hey to each their own reasons... Still I think it is a very unique specimen of player you have met, and I am not saying this in a good way Big smile

Now, I would reference the "No Fair Fight" culture rather than a "no fights" culture. For those that are drawn into the Eve narrative about space fights, like me, the harshest settings for that to happen (you truly lose your ship ), and noit relying on other people to come to my help if I am in trouble (I play solo), I will only start a fight when the odds are in my favor (I never use SiSi but I would have fought you there as there are no risks involved).
So in New Eden most often it will be surprise encounter, with very little forewarning intel possible to establish the ground for a fight with a reasonable chance of survival, and little risk of rapid escalation from the other side. I am not relying on any intel other than my own scouting, and no back up either, so this is a vital part of my engagement strategy.
I know I mostly play against strong odds, but this is my prefered style of play. I believe others have the same approach, but is a small niche play style in Eve.

I used to be in alliances and corps, but at least for the ones I have been into, the prevalent culture around PvP was all about the ISKloss ratio and numbers, and I believe this contributes to the "no fair fight" mentality, as well as the prevalence of the blobs (being one fish amongst a school of fish is so comforting...).
Nobody wants to become the one that got a silly loss, with a ship that does not fit the alliance/corp standards and on top of that not receive the SRP for this loss (on top of lowering the ISK kill/loss ratio for the whole alliance..)

So in short Ibelieve the meta game information available, together with the overwhelming power of numbers, are what contirbute to the current culture, and I do not see this changing short of adressing these two issues.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#192 - 2014-06-05 21:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Saisin wrote:
Just responding to the OP, as I have not caught up with the thread yet.

Regarding the encounter you describe on Sisi, it baffles me too, but hey to each their own reasons... Still I think it is a very unique specimen of player you have met, and I am not saying this in a good way Big smile

Now, I would reference the "No Fair Fight" culture rather than a "no fights" culture. For those that are drawn into the Eve narrative about space fights, like me, the harshest settings for that to happen (you truly lose your ship ), and noit relying on other people to come to my help if I am in trouble (I play solo), I will only start a fight when the odds are in my favor (I never use SiSi but I would have fought you there as there are no risks involved).
So in New Eden most often it will be surprise encounter, with very little forewarning intel possible to establish the ground for a fight with a reasonable chance of survival, and little risk of rapid escalation from the other side. I am not relying on any intel other than my own scouting, and no back up either, so this is a vital part of my engagement strategy.
I know I mostly play against strong odds, but this is my prefered style of play. I believe others have the same approach, but is a small niche play style in Eve.

I used to be in alliances and corps, but at least for the ones I have been into, the prevalent culture around PvP was all about the ISKloss ratio and numbers, and I believe this contributes to the "no fair fight" mentality, as well as the prevalence of the blobs (being one fish amongst a school of fish is so comforting...).
Nobody wants to become the one that got a silly loss, with a ship that does not fit the alliance/corp standards and on top of that not receive the SRP for this loss (on top of lowering the ISK kill/loss ratio for the whole alliance..)

So in short Ibelieve the meta game information available, together with the overwhelming power of numbers, are what contirbute to the current culture, and I do not see this changing short of adressing these two issues.



Thx for an excellent post... directly pertaining to the topic at hand.


The sharing of your own personal take on this and the exchanging of ideas is why the first public forums first were made. I understand what you are saying, and I think that we have all been there.

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#193 - 2014-06-05 22:17:19 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Saisin wrote:
Just responding to the OP, as I have not caught up with the thread yet.

Regarding the encounter you describe on Sisi, it baffles me too, but hey to each their own reasons... Still I think it is a very unique specimen of player you have met, and I am not saying this in a good way Big smile

Now, I would reference the "No Fair Fight" culture rather than a "no fights" culture. For those that are drawn into the Eve narrative about space fights, like me, the harshest settings for that to happen (you truly lose your ship ), and noit relying on other people to come to my help if I am in trouble (I play solo), I will only start a fight when the odds are in my favor (I never use SiSi but I would have fought you there as there are no risks involved).
So in New Eden most often it will be surprise encounter, with very little forewarning intel possible to establish the ground for a fight with a reasonable chance of survival, and little risk of rapid escalation from the other side. I am not relying on any intel other than my own scouting, and no back up either, so this is a vital part of my engagement strategy.
I know I mostly play against strong odds, but this is my prefered style of play. I believe others have the same approach, but is a small niche play style in Eve.

I used to be in alliances and corps, but at least for the ones I have been into, the prevalent culture around PvP was all about the ISKloss ratio and numbers, and I believe this contributes to the "no fair fight" mentality, as well as the prevalence of the blobs (being one fish amongst a school of fish is so comforting...).
Nobody wants to become the one that got a silly loss, with a ship that does not fit the alliance/corp standards and on top of that not receive the SRP for this loss (on top of lowering the ISK kill/loss ratio for the whole alliance..)

So in short Ibelieve the meta game information available, together with the overwhelming power of numbers, are what contirbute to the current culture, and I do not see this changing short of adressing these two issues.



Thx for an excellent post... directly pertaining to the topic at hand.


The sharing of your own personal take on this and the exchanging of ideas is why the first public forums first were made. I understand what you are saying, and I think that we have all been there.


I am no fighter anymore, but if people want PvP to be increased in the game, do away with API's for kills and losses.
If you don't have a kill/loss board to hold you back or to incentivize you, the only reason you PvP is for the love of it, or for strategic reasons.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#194 - 2014-06-05 22:25:49 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


I am no fighter anymore, but if people want PvP to be increased in the game, do away with API's for kills and losses.
If you don't have a kill/loss board to hold you back or to incentivize you, the only reason you PvP is for the love of it, or for strategic reasons.



Although I don't think that this will ever happen, I think that our new dynamic api's would be easily adapted to a "hid kill death" option? Or am I mistaken?

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Saisin
Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
#195 - 2014-06-05 22:40:20 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I am no fighter anymore, but if people want PvP to be increased in the game, do away with API's for kills and losses.
If you don't have a kill/loss board to hold you back or to incentivize you, the only reason you PvP is for the love of it, or for strategic reasons.

Or for the potential loot too Smile
I think the game can still track the number of kills and losses, but without all the extra information currently provided, like location, fits, loots value,...which can also give a lot of clues about any player's patterns, and as such is also conductive to the "No Fair Fight" culture...


.

Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

Check out the Minarchist Space Project
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#196 - 2014-06-05 22:45:03 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I am no fighter anymore, but if people want PvP to be increased in the game, do away with API's for kills and losses.
If you don't have a kill/loss board to hold you back or to incentivize you, the only reason you PvP is for the love of it, or for strategic reasons.

Or for the potential loot too Smile
I think the game can still track the number of kills and losses, but without all the extra information currently provided, like location, fits, loots value,...which can also give a lot of clues about any player's patterns, and as such is also conductive to the "No Fair Fight" culture...


.



I know I have a tremendously unfair advantage do to killboards. All I need is a name and I know what they fly, who their friends are, how they fly, what their personal builds are and... how to kill their ships.

All within about 5-10 minutes.

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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#197 - 2014-06-06 00:09:48 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Marsha Mallow
#198 - 2014-06-06 00:10:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
You should report all the posts from people disagreeing with you, then you can just talk to yourself. About how awesome and insightful you are (despite needing to beg on GD for fights).

*blinks innocently at ISDs*

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#199 - 2014-06-06 00:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Marsha Mallow wrote:
You should report all the posts from people disagreeing with you, then you can just talk to yourself. About how awesome and insightful you are (despite needing to beg on GD for fights).

*blinks innocently at ISDs*



Actually... I totally forgot that a report button existed. With actual ISD's here patrolling and doing their job (which is a huge change of pace for me) maybe that will keep the trolls under wraps a bit more and keep the thread on topic, thx! Big smile

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Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#200 - 2014-06-06 02:46:23 UTC
Why get all bent out of shape for some Sisi elites? There are plenty of us on the test server who will fight anyone anytime in anything and even some who knowingly go against the odds just to test the cut of their jib. Sisi or Tranq some ppl will fight and not give two clucks about KB stats, they just love the thrill if the fight. Find out who those people are and add them to your contacts and ask for fights whenever you see them online.


FYI: I am one if those guys....as a matter of fact I think me and you have gone a few rounds already and had a blast doing so.

Oderint Dum Metuant