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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Battleships

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Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#3081 - 2014-06-05 15:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
stoicfaux wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
How are your complaints of things being slow any different from the way it is now?

Nothing about a battleship is fast.

If 1500+ DPS and six (hundred) million dollars isk can't fix the Rattlesnake...

EVE Players: The Rattlesnake, pirate battleship. A ship rarely bought.
CCP Rise: Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the game's first desirable pirate missile drone shield tanked boat. The Rattlesnake will be that ship. Better than it was before. Better... stronger... faster.



It really is a shame they not only could not get it right, but screwed it up for the people who liked it, so completely. Sad

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3082 - 2014-06-05 15:14:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Boirele
Today, I decided to unhide Priestess Lin's posts, and was promptly reminded of why I did it in the first place.

In other news, the rattlesnake is still fine.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3083 - 2014-06-05 15:17:17 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:

Also, the fact you and baltec1 practically live on these forums points to serious mental issues. Nobody can take you seriously or believe you. Sorry. This is just common sense.


We can't take them seriously because they post a lot? That is your best argument?


you seem to forget about the fact that they are also completely wrong. You show a perfect example of selective thinking, detached from reality and common sense.


|I don't care about your thinking about their social life or lack thereof because it's irrelevant in a discussion. What I care about is seeing if it's BS claim or not. To test it, I need to know what the "standard" fit for a rattle will be (mostly how many omnis) so I can test if heavy end up with enough tracking to kill sentries or not. Everybody already know sentry can do that job from range because the transversal will be close to 0.

I can't buy a rattle ATM but I can surely create a ship which would give the same tracking to heavies and see if it handle frigs orbiting or not. All I need is the number of omni and what script they run. I'm guessing 2 with tracking for close darnage application but I'd rather be sure I have the correct info.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#3084 - 2014-06-05 15:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Frostys Virpio wrote:


I can't buy a rattle ATM but I can surely create a ship which would give the same tracking to heavies and see if it handle frigs orbiting or not. All I need is the number of omni and what script they run. I'm guessing 2 with tracking for close darnage application but I'd rather be sure I have the correct info.


They most definately cannot handle orbiting frigates well, especially in pvp. I for one have tried using omnis with heavy drones, as has stoicfaux. Let me direct you to his observations. They are exactly as I had expected.

stoicfaux wrote:

    In the context of level 4s, after fiddling with the Rattlesnake some more on Sisi:
  • 2.0 AU/s is sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow. And you can't use warp speed rigs or the implant #6 for warp speed.
  • Ogre IIs are sloooooooooooooow. Use anything that's faster when killing lights. Especially against Serp frigates which like to orbit at 10+km.
  • Missiles are sloooooooooooooow, i.e. volley counting sucks (micromanagement or lose DPS.)
  • Sentries are sloooooooooooooooow. It's really annoying not to have drones out while you're moving to an acceleration gate which isn't that far away to begin with.
  • Rattlesnake is sloooooooooooooooooow. See previous.
  • Heavy drones require micromanagement since they tend to prefer non-frigate targets and/or whatever you're currently attacking. Ditto for sentries to a lesser degree. But at least sentries can't wander off.
  • Can only lock 7 targets. Which becomes a noticeable annoyance since you need to keep many targets locked in order to micromanage drone targets. Heavy drones tend to kill the frigates quickly, and it takes forever to lock a frigate, which makes it difficult to keep enough frigates locked to keep the heavies from being idle or from wandering off.
  • Locking is slooooooooooooooooooooow, which is compounded by being limited to 7 targets.
  • Tank is great.
  • Needs more CPU. Fitting is a pain even if you have perfect fitting skills.
  • Fitting a Rattlesnake can be sloooooooooooooooooow, because adding a prop mod requires non-trivial thinking to make it fit.
  • Ammo swapping is slooooooooooooooooooooow. Having to downgrade to T1 ammo to help kill frigate swarms faster was tedious.
  • No tractor beam is sloooooooooooooooooooow. Seriously, not having a utility high is painful.
  • Also, since when did level 4s have so many darn frigates?
  • Did I mention the tank was great? For a lot of missions the cap booster is superfluous.


tl;dr - I was considering getting a 1500+ DPS Rattlesnake, but after the slow warp speed, missile micromanagement, drone micromanagement, target locking micromanagement, and jumping through fitting hoops, the Rattlesnake is dead to me.



[Rattlesnake, Summer 33]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I

Garde II x2
Ogre II x2
Salvage Drone I x5
Bouncer II x2





Its just so much better to have bonuses on all drones and a 400m3 drone bay to deal with frigates than be forced to gimp-fit your ship vs everything else just to deal with the most expendable of ships in EVE.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3085 - 2014-06-05 15:45:39 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:

Its just so much better to have bonuses on all drones and a 400m3 drone bay to deal with frigates than be forced to gimp-fit your ship vs everything else just to deal with the most expendable of ships in EVE.


You're a few days too late.

The patch already hit. Now everyone can see that the sky isn't falling, and that the ship is awesome.

You lose.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#3086 - 2014-06-05 16:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:

Its just so much better to have bonuses on all drones and a 400m3 drone bay to deal with frigates than be forced to gimp-fit your ship vs everything else just to deal with the most expendable of ships in EVE.


You're a few days too late.

The patch already hit. Now everyone can see that the sky isn't falling, and that the ship is awesome.

You lose.


The people who aren't flying a Rattlesnake win, and that now includes me.

All Rattlesnake pilots lose. Especially those who like their drones.

Its decidededly not awesome, as most people have noted in this thread. It will now have glaring weaknesses in pvp, either against frigates or anything larger than a cruiser, and decreased pve applications to boot.

Where are the blogs and threads of people talking about how "awesome" the new rattlesnake is? Oh, right, there aren't any. Because its not.

You have been so wrong on so many occasions in this thread. Thanks for confirming everything I've said is true.Blink

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#3087 - 2014-06-05 16:26:37 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:

Its decidededly not awesome, as most people have noted in this thread.


You and your army of alts, along with epicurus the super troll, are not "most people".


Quote:

It will now have glaring weaknesses in pvp, either against frigates or anything larger than a cruiser, and decreased pve applications to boot.


This thing annihilates smaller ships. It's a lawnmower. And it's PVE applications have only improved.

Quote:
Thanks for confirming everything I've said is true.Blink


I don't think you've said one single thing that's true for the entire thread.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3088 - 2014-06-05 16:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Priestess Lin wrote:
[

They most definately cannot handle orbiting frigates well, especially in pvp. I for one have tried using omnis with heavy drones, as has stoicfaux. Let me direct you to his observations. They are exactly as I had expected.



Yet an AFK carrier with geckos wiped out an entire bomber gang.

If they cannot track NPC frigates how did they manage to kill an entire gang of MWDing player frigates in a matter of minutes?
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#3089 - 2014-06-05 16:35:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:

Its decidededly not awesome, as most people have noted in this thread.


You and your army of alts, along with epicurus the super troll, are not "most people".



Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


I don't think you've said one single thing that's true for the entire thread.


baltec1 wrote:


A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine.


Roll

You see what we are dealing with here, folks?

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Nalarin
#3090 - 2014-06-05 16:52:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You lose.
He had a post saying he wins whatever happens.

You replied again.
He is still winning.

And we are back to "ridiculous clowns" again!

In other non-news, the Rattlesnake is still good if you don't afk.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#3091 - 2014-06-05 17:01:38 UTC
Nalarin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You lose.
He had a post saying he wins whatever happens.

You replied again.
He is still winning.

And we are back to "ridiculous clowns" again!

In other non-news, the Rattlesnake is still good if you don't afk.


Yea, its not like CCP will be listening to him given the hundreds of posts of his that got deleted and the five or six temp bans.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3092 - 2014-06-05 17:16:51 UTC
Priestess Lin wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


I can't buy a rattle ATM but I can surely create a ship which would give the same tracking to heavies and see if it handle frigs orbiting or not. All I need is the number of omni and what script they run. I'm guessing 2 with tracking for close darnage application but I'd rather be sure I have the correct info.


They most definately cannot handle orbiting frigates well, especially in pvp. I for one have tried using omnis with heavy drones, as has stoicfaux. Let me direct you to his observations. They are exactly as I had expected.

stoicfaux wrote:
  • Can only lock 7 targets. Which becomes a noticeable annoyance since you need to keep many targets locked in order to micromanage drone targets. Heavy drones tend to kill the frigates quickly, and it takes forever to lock a frigate, which makes it difficult to keep enough frigates locked to keep the heavies from being idle or from wandering off.







    • Don't know about you but this too me sounds like Stoicfaux think they actually can deal with orbiting frigs. Faster than the ship can lock them in fact.
    Priestess Lin
    Darkfall Corp
    #3093 - 2014-06-05 17:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
    This is quoted directly from the dev blog


    "Due to the changes in range and tracking, heavy drones will do more damage than before against small and slow targets, but will have a harder time hitting fast moving targets"

    So not only is the Rattlesnake losing its bonuses on light drones, but heavy drones are even worse than they were before at hitting fast moving targets.

    So basically you are forced to fit RLML to deal with frigates, which leaves you with weak against everything else in the game, especially considering how much easier it is to deal with 1 or 2 drones than 5. Ugh

    When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #3094 - 2014-06-05 17:39:14 UTC
    Priestess Lin wrote:
    This is quoted directly from the dev blog


    "Due to the changes in range and tracking, heavy drones will do more damage than before against small and slow targets, but will have a harder time hitting fast moving targets"

    So not only is the Rattlesnake losing its bonuses on light drones, but heavy drones are even worse than they were before at hitting fast moving targets. Ugh


    Yet a carrier just wiped out an entire frigate gang using geckos.

    What you are saying simply doesn't hold up to reality.
    Lucine Delacourt
    The Covenant of Blood
    #3095 - 2014-06-05 17:42:32 UTC
    Priestess Lin wrote:
    This is quoted directly from the dev blog


    "Due to the changes in range and tracking, heavy drones will do more damage than before against small and slow targets, but will have a harder time hitting fast moving targets"

    So not only is the Rattlesnake losing its bonuses on light drones, but heavy drones are even worse than they were before at hitting fast moving targets.

    So basically you are forced to fit RLML to deal with frigates, which leaves you with weak against everything else in the game, especially considering how much easier it is to deal with 1 or 2 drones than 5. Ugh



    Stop referring to the dev blog and actually test it in game. Everyone who has, feels like heavies are killing frigs just fine.
    Frostys Virpio
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #3096 - 2014-06-05 17:42:33 UTC
    Priestess Lin wrote:
    This is quoted directly from the dev blog


    "Due to the changes in range and tracking, heavy drones will do more damage than before against small and slow targets, but will have a harder time hitting fast moving targets"

    So not only is the Rattlesnake losing its bonuses on light drones, but heavy drones are even worse than they were before at hitting fast moving targets.

    So basically you are forced to fit RLML to deal with frigates, which leaves you with weak against everything else in the game, especially considering how much easier it is to deal with 1 or 2 drones than 5. Ugh


    From the same dev blog :

    Tracking speed values are decreasing to compensate, but all drones will track better than before when at their optimal ranges.

    The end result then would have to be tested.

    Oh and btw, when wuoting from a devblog, please make you you get the whole sentence.

    You forgot : "that spend most of their time at suboptimal ranges." at the end of your quote. It makes quite a difference.
    Priestess Lin
    Darkfall Corp
    #3097 - 2014-06-05 17:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
    Lucine Delacourt wrote:
    Priestess Lin wrote:
    This is quoted directly from the dev blog


    "Due to the changes in range and tracking, heavy drones will do more damage than before against small and slow targets, but will have a harder time hitting fast moving targets"

    So not only is the Rattlesnake losing its bonuses on light drones, but heavy drones are even worse than they were before at hitting fast moving targets.

    So basically you are forced to fit RLML to deal with frigates, which leaves you with weak against everything else in the game, especially considering how much easier it is to deal with 1 or 2 drones than 5. Ugh



    Stop referring to the dev blog and actually test it in game. Everyone who has, feels like heavies are killing frigs just fine.


    I have tested it and they are not. The only people who are saying otherwise is Baltec1 and Kaaloofus. No surprise there. We just need Tippia in here for the circle to be complete. Lol

    Sure, with sufficient omnis and tracking enchancers,and gutting any ability you have to tank, heavy drones can deal with SLOW frigates about as efficiently as light frigates, if you don't consider the loss of speed between targets.

    The problem comes with FAST frigates. Are we learning to read, yet?

    Here is another quote from the dev blog.

    "These increases only effect the MWD speed of the drones, so they will reach their distant targets faster but they may still struggle to keep up with a fast moving target, as intended."

    People will put their Atron alt on this ship and go afk. The Drone boat pirate faction battleship, everyone. Straight

    When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
    Frostys Virpio
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #3098 - 2014-06-05 17:58:47 UTC
    Priestess Lin wrote:
    Lucine Delacourt wrote:
    Priestess Lin wrote:
    This is quoted directly from the dev blog


    "Due to the changes in range and tracking, heavy drones will do more damage than before against small and slow targets, but will have a harder time hitting fast moving targets"

    So not only is the Rattlesnake losing its bonuses on light drones, but heavy drones are even worse than they were before at hitting fast moving targets.

    So basically you are forced to fit RLML to deal with frigates, which leaves you with weak against everything else in the game, especially considering how much easier it is to deal with 1 or 2 drones than 5. Ugh



    Stop referring to the dev blog and actually test it in game. Everyone who has, feels like heavies are killing frigs just fine.


    I have tested it and they are not. The only people who are saying otherwise is Baltec1 and Kaaloofus. No surprise there. We just need Tippia in here for the circle to be complete. Lol

    Sure, with sufficient omnis and tracking enchancers,and gutting any ability you have to tank, heavy drones can deal with SLOW frigates about as efficiently as light frigates, if you don't consider the loss of speed between targets.

    The problem comes with FAST frigates. Are we learning to read, yet?

    Here is another quote from the dev blog.

    "These increases only effect the MWD speed of the drones, so they will reach their distant targets faster but they may still struggle to keep up with a fast moving target, as intended."

    People will put their Atron alt on this ship and go afk. The Drone boat pirate faction battleship, everyone. Straight


    Stoicfaux said it deals with frigs so fast he had trouble keeping up with the locks. How the hell is that not fast enough?
    Priestess Lin
    Darkfall Corp
    #3099 - 2014-06-05 18:07:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
    Frostys Virpio wrote:

    Stoicfaux said it deals with frigs so fast he had trouble keeping up with the locks. How the hell is that not fast enough?




    Frigs in missions aren't the issue here. Although bonused light drones still dealt with them better, not being forced to sacrifice many slots to do so.

    Think before you post, please.

    When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #3100 - 2014-06-05 18:09:12 UTC
    Priestess Lin wrote:




    Frigs in missions aren't the issue here.

    Think before you post, please.


    Frigs in PvP have been shown to also die to heavies.