Warfare & Tactics

Gallente have been losing the occupancy war as much as anyone. Nisuwa was almost always completely stable throughout. Farmers have zero effect on home systems.
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

At least you are willing to analyze data.





First I think you make too big of deal about the bunker grinds. I take it Gallente currently has enough pvp pilots so that they can do bunker busts and generally outnumber the caldari or neutrals that might hot drop. I agree that is pvp. Its just not all or even the crux of fw occupancy imo. Its just mini null sec.

We can just disagree on the how important the bunker busting is. Even when amarr were down on pilots (possibly the lowest in its history) we could get enough pilots together to do a bunker bust. Perhaps that has changed with more hotdrops I don't know. Amarr is the smallest militia fighting the biggest milita. If they say they can't organize a bunker bust and get it done then I will take their word for it. I think its more a question of will (no one really cares) than a question of ability. Usually there will be some short time zone dominance were a bunker can be busted.


Second looking at the pilots who get the most vp and then looking at their killboard is imo the best way to see how you can best gain vp. Gaining vp is pretty much the most important thing a pilot can do to help their militia win the occupancy war. I know you might disagree and think participating in a bunker bust is the most important thing. We can just disagree.

You say its not a "good way to measure the occupancy war." I am not sure what that means. I am saying that if we want to see how to get the most vp for your militia we should look at what the people who get the most vp for their militia do. That is all.

Finally the pvp oriented folks are not doing much other than bunker busting with their mains. If they are running alts in plexes that is more valuable for the occupancy war. I give my reasons for that view above. They are both rabbits (“rabbit” is a term for a plexer who runs from pvp. We had them before lp was given so they really weren’t “farming” anything. They were just winning the occupancy war for their faction. I think the term “rabbit” is a better description of the problem than “farmers”. ) and pvpers. We shouldn’t turn a blind eye to their rabbit behavior and pretend they are only pvpers.

1 and 2) you might be right. I really cant tell.

3) Doesn't this depend on whether people "care" about the system? I hope we see more pvp in systems. But first pilots need to care about winning those systems. I am not sure whether this will happen or not.

4) Maybe per week you are right. Because that is too short of a time. But on the whole the side that gains more vp will gradually gain more systems. If after say 5-20 weeks (how long can vary depending on how big the vp differential is) one side consistently gets more vp than the other they will likely have gained more systems. I am looking at amarr minmatar fw now. We have only one system vulnerable. (and its our system no minmatar system is vulneable at all) All of the minmatar systems are under 70% contested. Ammar is not doing well gaining systems because the minmatar have been racking up more vp than amarr week after week for the last several weeks.

VP, iHub bashing, stuff.

You need both if you want to do the Occupancy war thing. And while you are doing it you can fill the killboards with little bits of joy.

Fair enough winning the occupancy means winning more systems than your opponent.

Its very easy to measure. Now amarr is losing the occupancy war so is caldari.


In the Gal/Cal warzone, we'd have 15-20 systems vulnerable for weeks at a time. If noone flipped them, it didn't matter that they were vulnerable. Total VP per faction remains a crap way of determining who's gaining or losing systems and why.

Amarr is doing poorly in gaining systems because noone is coordinating an offensive. If there were Amarr pilots pushing to plex up and flip certain systems, the total Minmatar VP gains wouldn't make a difference. Those systems would still get flipped, Amarr would hold more than before and Minmatar less. [/quote]

I think this is pretty much a math error. There is no way amarr can start to take and hold more systems than minmatar have if minmatar are consistently getting more vp. Minmatar have been getting more vp than amarr and that is why they now have more systems. The issue you claim about being able to bust a bunker seems not to exist in this warzone.

I guess its possible if you get vp for offensive plexing a system that is already vulnerable. I am not sure if you get vp for oplexing a vulnerable system. Also I no longer know if there is a reason to do that - ie whether there is a buffer created. But there is no reason to think one side is doing that more than the other.

If you want to get more systems for your faction get more vp for your militia its really pretty straight forward.

Again, there's the "plex all you can" way to do it, and there's the "keep them from plexing all they can" way to do it, and a combination of the two. Your analysis only looks at the "plex all you can" portion.

So I hope you can agree that your analysis is incomplete at best.

QCATS run off Caldari WTs from Nisuwa 23/7 and do more to secure their area than almost anybody in game. Yet they are not amongst the leaders in VP totals and therefore are not among the players who you say contribute the most towards winning FW.

You're clearly wrong on this matter.

The difference in VP totals between militias does matter, but it's wrong to say the system is broken because guys maximizing VP totals are not getting fights.

For example, some of these guys are maximizing vp totals because they (and their corps) have run off everybody else and are now free to farm it up. They pvp'd to make their easy-mode VP possible.

I think the bottom line here is that the FW game is much more nuanced than you're giving it credit for. Lots of different (and better) ways to achieve objectives than having farming alts. This has been proven time and again IN GAME and not on forums.

When qcats sets an alt in their home system or some other system when no enemies are even in local that is not farming right? But if caldari behaves the same way with their alts it is.

Faction war and eve generally is an interesting experiment of in group bias. Even when I was in red versus blue there were some red players would complain that "the blues" are doing this or that and some blue players would argue it was the reds doing that.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_group_paradigm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_favoritism

Here is the thing. You can keep chasing rabbit plexers all you want. But unless you are ready to put some rabbits out there too you won't win.

FW has turned out pretty much as I have predicted. No one cares about 95% of the systems because winning the systems is all about who can field more rabbit plexers. Until pvpers have mechanics that help them get an advantage it will remain a game where the side with the most rabbits wins.

I disagree. When we want a system, we saddle up and take it. Simple as. No need to depend on the uncoordinated selfish impulses of farmers to make that happen. Quite often, the ones we want to take aren't anywhere near vulnerable when we start our push - in other words, we're taking those systems without much help from the farmers at all.

The fact that other factions PVPers will need to start stepping up to do their own plexing to take systems is a good thing.

5% of 101 is 5.

1. Kinnaka
2. Hykanima
3. Innia
4. Eha
5. Vlillirier
6. Renarelle
7. Nennmaila
8. Enaluri
9. Hallanen
10. Agoze
11. Uphallant
12. Ouelletta
13. Ladistier
14. Heydieles
15. Fliet
16. Deven
17. Tannolen
18. Onatoh
19. Nisuwa
20. Notoras
21. Prism
22. Teskanen
23. Eugales

did I miss any?

Those are systems in Gallente/Caldari space that players CARE ABOUT before the latest patch (corps live there, or they actively defend those systems). You're off by more than you think.