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So for pve Missile caldari are the win? :X

Author
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2014-05-21 08:57:48 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
IIshira wrote:
I wouldn't expect the Gecko to be useful for PVE at all. Just like a heavy drone travel time reduces your effective DPS and it's going to get eaten alive if you send it past 20 km. Yes the RS will give it more HP but it's not indestructible. I guess you could use a prop mod to keep in range of your drone but why when you could just use a sentry drone.

Now for PVP it may have some interesting applications.

I bet the RS will be popular once people figure out it can work around the patch where CCP put limit to the number of drones assisting a pilot. Yes the actual number of drones isn't increased but the effective number of drones is.


Not entirely true. I already used Geckos in PVE and it's always a laugh. Does damned little things are so durable, in one case a Gecko even survived combined aggro of a dozen rats while travelling back 50+ km to my drone bay. It still had shield left when I scooped it up again.


I had one die before it could get back from being 20km away. If the webbing frigs catch it, it will not make it back.



Yeah they can die.

However the new RS Gecko will have 3.75 times the HP plus you will likely drop the MJD for a MWD or AB on the ship and be able to meet it half way.

Packing 2 x bouncers 2 x Gecko and 5 x Warrior/Hob II gives a spare gecko and some lights for emergencies.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#42 - 2014-05-21 10:18:40 UTC
yes you will get better performance with t1 missiles compared to t1 lasers. that is why most people start with missile ships for lv4s.

however the performane ceiling is much higher on a paladin than a golem, not to mention the voley counting and painter juggling. so at higher sp you will have better performance with the paladin. the skills also help with fitting on other ships so the training is not wasted.

regaeding the missioning in amarr space. a lot of missions are alway the same for example AE. other missions the rats change depending on the space you are in (not corp you are running for). for example blockade or recon. other missions are only available in certain space like gone bezerk or gurista/serpentis assault.

that said while scorch is high em, conflag is high therm and that means you have a large range of non space specific missions that you will be good at too like drone/merc missions. eom is also therm weak iirc.

then of course nothing is stopping you from having a raven AND a paladin.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-05-21 14:29:27 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
IIshira wrote:
I wouldn't expect the Gecko to be useful for PVE at all. Just like a heavy drone travel time reduces your effective DPS and it's going to get eaten alive if you send it past 20 km. Yes the RS will give it more HP but it's not indestructible. I guess you could use a prop mod to keep in range of your drone but why when you could just use a sentry drone.

Now for PVP it may have some interesting applications.

I bet the RS will be popular once people figure out it can work around the patch where CCP put limit to the number of drones assisting a pilot. Yes the actual number of drones isn't increased but the effective number of drones is.


Not entirely true. I already used Geckos in PVE and it's always a laugh. Does damned little things are so durable, in one case a Gecko even survived combined aggro of a dozen rats while travelling back 50+ km to my drone bay. It still had shield left when I scooped it up again.


I had one die before it could get back from being 20km away. If the webbing frigs catch it, it will not make it back.



Yeah they can die.

However the new RS Gecko will have 3.75 times the HP plus you will likely drop the MJD for a MWD or AB on the ship and be able to meet it half way.

Packing 2 x bouncers 2 x Gecko and 5 x Warrior/Hob II gives a spare gecko and some lights for emergencies.


If i want to use the Geckos, my preferred ship right now is an Ishtar or VNI. With either ship I can get 850 dps with just drones using a combination of 2 Geckos, 2 Hammerheads, and 1 Hob. My Ishtar can easily tank L4s, and I find it more enjoyable to know I 'm killing all that **** with a T2 cruiser.
One other thing to think about, Machariel can already do arounf 1400 turret dps, 2 Geckos compliment it perfectly.

Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#44 - 2014-05-21 16:19:11 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
PvE missile battleships are generally sub-par for mission based PvE. Reasons being:
a) they need to mount missile rigs and thus have to forego warp speed rigs, and
b) cruise/torp damage implants share slot 6 with warp speed implants.

Exceptions would be someone with a full set of (expensive) Ascendancy warp speed implants, and/or if/when someone can make RHMLs work in missions.


While im not saying this consideration is useless, how many people, statistically, are actually able and willing to complete missions fast enough that a warp speed consideration comes into play ?

As you pointed out, YMMV.

With three stacking penalized warp speed rigs[1] and a 10% warp speed implant, a 2.0 AU/s battleship can warp at 3.45 AU/s. If we look at the chart from the warp speed dev blog, we see that for a 20 AU warp, that's a ~21 second difference, or 42 seconds round trip.

If it currently takes you 10 minutes (600s) to finish a mission (travel + mission time,) that 42 seconds represents a 7.5% improvement in income. If that 10 minute mission is one jump away, then that 42 * 2 = 84 seconds of saving represents a 16.3% improvement in income. Formula: 100% * 1 / ( (mission_time - warp_savings) / mission_time)

10 minutes, 0 jumps: 7.5%
10 minutes, 1 jumps: 16.3%
20 minutes, 0 jumps: 3.6%
20 minutes, 1 jumps: 7.5%
30 minutes, 0 jumps: 2.4%
30 minutes, 1 jumps: 4.9%
"0 jumps" means the mission is in system, i.e. two warps round trip. One jump away is 4 warps round trip.

If you're blitzing missions, then you'll probably want more warp speed. If you're not, then you could still benefit noticeably from faster warp speed if your missions are one jump away, with medium-long ranges to the stargates, and if your DPS is maxed out.


[1] Warp rigs are getting stacking penalized in Kronos 2014.

Realistically speaking, for how many battleship setups would you actually want to dedicate all your rigs to warp speed? That 7.5% and 16.3% figure comes at the cost of tank, application, and projection rigs (and in some cases cap life). Granted the figure looks better the more systems you have to jump across.

Also Marauders don't even have three rig slots to use.
stoicfaux
#45 - 2014-05-22 03:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Inkarr Hashur wrote:

Realistically speaking, for how many battleship setups would you actually want to dedicate all your rigs to warp speed? That 7.5% and 16.3% figure comes at the cost of tank, application, and projection rigs (and in some cases cap life). Granted the figure looks better the more systems you have to jump across.

Depends on your goals. If you're new to missions, then your focus won't be on warp speed rigs. If your eyes bleed from missions and you believe that gank is tank, then you can probably find a few setups/battleships that will work. At a minimum, a Mach should do well. Remember, you can decline multiple missions per 4 hour block if your faction standings are high enough (and as long as your standings toward the agent and/or the agent's corp don't go below -0.2,) so there's no reason to do missions that are too "dangerous" because you swapped tank/gank rigs for warp speed rigs.

Quote:
Also Marauders don't even have three rig slots to use.

True, but they do get a 10% warp speed bonus over regular battleships. Woot.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Amber Solaire
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2014-06-04 22:24:56 UTC
Roll Get some better implants.....
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#47 - 2014-06-05 06:42:29 UTC
To answer the tile: No

There are better missile platforms than caldary for running PvE content. Granted, some of the "edge" over caldary comes from split weapon system, like, for example fleet typhoons ability to field 5 sentry drones in addition to doing slightly more damage with missiles (7.5% damage bonus per level against 5% RoF bonus translates into 8.25 effective launchers for navy typhoon against raven's 8 effective launchers)

The new Mordus BS has slightly more base missile damage but it is still badly outperformed by properly set up navy typhoon.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-06-05 08:06:53 UTC
Mund Richard wrote:
Missiles do fix damage that cannot be higher than the stated for a missile, get their damage ALWAYS reduced by signature if it's smaller than the Explosion Radius of your Missiles, get always reduced by speed (if it's higher than the exp velo), thus they are best at rats already orbiting you (their orbiting velocity is only half that of their approaching).


One tiny correction here - you can compensate for explosion velocity by explosion radius. This means that even if your missile's explosion velocity is very low, you may still apply full damage to a ship moving fast, provided your explosion radius is good.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#49 - 2014-06-05 09:25:25 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
PvE missile battleships are generally sub-par for mission based PvE. Reasons being:
a) they need to mount missile rigs and thus have to forego warp speed rigs, and
b) cruise/torp damage implants share slot 6 with warp speed implants.

Exceptions would be someone with a full set of (expensive) Ascendancy warp speed implants, and/or if/when someone can make RHMLs work in missions.


While im not saying this consideration is useless, how many people, statistically, are actually able and willing to complete missions fast enough that a warp speed consideration comes into play ?

As you pointed out, YMMV.

With three stacking penalized warp speed rigs[1] and a 10% warp speed implant, a 2.0 AU/s battleship can warp at 3.45 AU/s. If we look at the chart from the warp speed dev blog, we see that for a 20 AU warp, that's a ~21 second difference, or 42 seconds round trip.

If it currently takes you 10 minutes (600s) to finish a mission (travel + mission time,) that 42 seconds represents a 7.5% improvement in income. If that 10 minute mission is one jump away, then that 42 * 2 = 84 seconds of saving represents a 16.3% improvement in income. Formula: 100% * 1 / ( (mission_time - warp_savings) / mission_time)

10 minutes, 0 jumps: 7.5%
10 minutes, 1 jumps: 16.3%
20 minutes, 0 jumps: 3.6%
20 minutes, 1 jumps: 7.5%
30 minutes, 0 jumps: 2.4%
30 minutes, 1 jumps: 4.9%
"0 jumps" means the mission is in system, i.e. two warps round trip. One jump away is 4 warps round trip.

If you're blitzing missions, then you'll probably want more warp speed. If you're not, then you could still benefit noticeably from faster warp speed if your missions are one jump away, with medium-long ranges to the stargates, and if your DPS is maxed out.


[1] Warp rigs are getting stacking penalized in Kronos 2014.


Hm - seems like the difference can be indeed noticeable. Looking at the linked devblog and taking a situation in one of the popular mission hubs.
Distance to gate - 11 AU
In system typical warp distance ~20 AU
Adjacent system typical warp distance ~110 AU

Increasing the warp speed from 2 to 2.2 saves you 10 seconds in system, 24 seconds in that huge adjacent system and 28 seconds if mission is 2j out (further system a bit smaller)
Increasing the warp speed from 2 to 2.8 saves you 28 seconds in system, 76 seconds! in the adjacent system and 82 seconds if mission is 2j out. Although ofc a single T2 rig would increase the warp speed only to 2.5, but still, the difference is substantial. And a T1 navy BS can actually run 2x T2 rigor 1x T2 warp speed rigs. Although such a setup can require some quite shiny compromises in the tanking section as it hits CPU pretty hard for majority of mission setups.

The difference between 2.8 AU/s and 2.2 AU/s (latter being marauders) is still noticeable but not quite as dramatic. 18 seconds in system, 52 seconds in adjacent system and 54 seconds 2 jumps out. Golem has somewhat harder time dropping the rigor, though, as it has only 2 rig slots to start with so the options are 2x T2 rigor against 1x T2 rigor + 1x T2 warp speed. Painter bonus can allow one to compensate by fitting more painters (which are a bit better now that their cycle time is 5 sec).

Losing one T2 rigor for a Golem would mean missile sig going from ~160m up to ~200m - which, even with painters would probably cost you more or less about 1 extra minute per mission for all the frigates you did not kill in one volley. More of an issue if you are up against spider drones or elite frigs ofc. And if you are using missiles against these instead of putting your drones on them.

For a missile ship I believe the averageish blitzing rate is approx 5-6 missions per hour I believe, but I have not done the numbers after the warp speed changes for missions so that might have changed things quite a bit (although after the changes BS should be somewhat slower than before). Not counting the missions for which you use some other ship like interceptor or T3.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#50 - 2014-06-05 11:41:26 UTC
After looking at the numbers for a little while I have, with some regret, upgraded my mission-running battleships to use T2 warp speed rigs. It hurts especially on the Golem as with only 2 rig slots losing one of the Rigors it will do things to my damage application. But on the other hand the whole minute saved in-warp for majority of missions is significant enough.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.

Taegessia
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-06-05 13:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Taegessia
About using more warp speed vs gank\tank on mission ships, my instinct says its more like a tie rather than actually making a noticeable difference (unless you travel to multiple agents in a 3-5 jump radius).

All battleships no matter the weapon type can use dps\damage rigs. Quick\generic examble without getting into many details :

If i remove the T2 flare\rigor rigs from the TFI & use warp rigs instead, granted I will reduce travel time from source to destination and back. If that time is say 40 secs then that equals aproximmately with 5 cruise missile volleys. If said mission has minimum 5 npc battleships it will most likely take me 1 volley more for each one to take down since I now have reduced damage per volley.

I'm not sure, though more warp speed is a no-brainer, depending what you sacrifice. I don't feel comfortable sacrificing dmg,dps rigs for it, the ascendancy set looks like a logical step but its too expensive in relation to what I personally use right now (halo).

"Please add an option to automatically repackage & stack our currently unpackaged items in our item hangar".

Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-06-05 15:21:20 UTC
I dunno, with my paladin I feel like 4 heatsinks is enough and I can drop my DPS rig for a warp speed rig. The elutriation rig feels kind of important though.

Oh was this thread about missle caldari PVE? I had forgotten after all this talk about warp speed.
M Key
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2014-06-08 16:07:23 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:

I know that, but when you lose that Gecko you lose most of your dps, and you have to launch another one and wait for it to get to the target. Sentries would work better as you can scoop them when they start taking dmage and put out new ones.


Problem with that thinking is that the Gecko as used by a rattlesnake can tank almost as much as the rattlesnake itself. Speed/sig tanking battleship class weapons while backing that with huge EHP for the times the transversal falls too close to 0 against the rats. No the problem with the Gecko on a rattlesnake is it can one shot mission triggers smaller than battleships. Not that it can't take a beating.
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