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Scanning Upgrades require activation now?

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Author
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-05-24 12:49:45 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:

However, I'd argue that this is a symptom of unprobable t3s being broken, not that the scanning modules should stay passive. It should not be required to have a 2b pod in an untanked frigate to probe down an entire fleet of t3s. I think the fix is that the t3 unprobability should be nerfed (probably cap the amount of unprobability you can have at a lower level than now, so you require less to be able to lock onto the most unprobable ships you can get).
As their unprobability is a function of signature and sensor strength, a bit of a nerf to both of these would work, and it's not like T3s don't need to be reined in a bit in these (and almost every other) areas.

Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2014-05-24 13:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Josilin du Guesclin
Steven Hackett wrote:

New players have allready gotten a HUGE advantage from when I was scanning for the first time by the astrometric changes. So yeah.. Nerf scanning, make it competitive again.

I miss racing my opponents on scanning a system for intel.
The advantage they got was not having to scan with only 4-5 probes. The rest of it, well at your skill levels there wasn't much change. So really, what you're arguing is that you enjoyed having a vast difference in scan speeds between you, with your full spread of probes and your virtue set and high SP levels, and the poor newbie with 5-6 probes, only Astronautics III, and a T1 frigate.

FWIW, I still see players with perfect skills in perfectly fitted cov ops scan out sigs much faster than those with mediocre scanning skills and T1 scan modules.

EDIT: Remember that CCP likes things to be balanced such that a lot of extra investment buys a small upgrade. You're advocating returning to a much steeper curve.
Wingzero Mileghere
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2014-05-25 00:20:10 UTC
Not a good idea it will have a bad effect on wormhole life altogether if you want to make a change like this then make new active modules instead don't ruin and make the scanners life harder come on thats just not fair
Jess Tanner
Bangworks Systems Inc.
#144 - 2014-05-26 00:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jess Tanner
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One thing to note, this change was requested by quite a few wormhole players immediately after Odyssey and was one of the common requests from the wormhole members of CSM 8. They correctly argued that having these modules passive removes any choice or risk around them and skews the balance between midslots and lowslots for probing ships.

I've had this item on my list of CSM requested wormhole improvements for a while.


please delete post, mis-click
Jess Tanner
Bangworks Systems Inc.
#145 - 2014-05-26 01:01:44 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.


That was before you nerfed our scanning skills...
Galmas
13.
Enigma Project
#146 - 2014-05-27 19:48:17 UTC
Making scanning for signature more tedious again is a bad idea. (I havnt red all the thread... just got pointed to it...)
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2014-05-30 00:33:01 UTC
As someone who scans out a dozen + wormholes a day, this really grinds. If combat scanning is too easy, they please change it so the change is only required for combat scanning. Major collateral damage to those who do large volume scanning on a regular basis just bites.
DoToo Foo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2014-06-05 12:08:10 UTC
Anyone know if it is still the plan for scanning mid slots to become 'active' modules. On Sisi, they currently are again passive modules.

http://foo-eve.blogspot.com.au/

asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#149 - 2014-06-05 13:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: asteroidjas
Just double checking some info here...(as i only intermittently scanned before/after these mods were introduced)

Did or did not the base strength of scan probes get lowered upon the release these mods? (including the skills that improved them)

Did or did not the base signal strength of sites get lowered upon release of these mods?


Also, you want to make scanning a little less OP....try not giving EVERY SHIP EVER the instant "warp to sites" function the instant they are in every system. Make the new System Scanner a module that one has to fit to their ship, that way, if they want all the instant info, they have to make a choice.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#150 - 2014-06-05 17:46:44 UTC
asteroidjas wrote:
Did or did not the base strength of scan probes get lowered upon the release these mods? (including the skills that improved them)


Afaik no

asteroidjas wrote:
Did or did not the base signal strength of sites get lowered upon release of these mods?


No

asteroidjas wrote:
Also, you want to make scanning a little less OP....try not giving EVERY SHIP EVER the instant "warp to sites" function the instant they are in every system. Make the new System Scanner a module that one has to fit to their ship, that way, if they want all the instant info, they have to make a choice.


Gonna go with "no" as well here, that would f*** things up quite heavily for both PvP and PvE
Unkind Omen
Voyagers Inc.
#151 - 2014-06-10 13:36:03 UTC
+1 for buffing those modules with new active mode as suggested higher in this topic while nerfing the combat probes default strength to compensate. If you want to scan other ships fast - you have to be decloaked. No need to nerf any numbers for PvE as scanning there is not time critical so nerfing will only increase tediousness of the gameplay.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#152 - 2014-06-10 15:24:05 UTC
Ab'del Abu wrote:

I wonder how you came to that conclusion. Before you brought this up, I have never come across anyone who claimed that combat probing was to easy now.


Then you haven't been listening.

Bomber probing and on grid fleet probing is obscenely simple, and this change doesn't do a damn thing to help sort out that mess, probing needs a lot more violent nerfing applied to it.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2014-06-10 17:43:38 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ab'del Abu wrote:

I wonder how you came to that conclusion. Before you brought this up, I have never come across anyone who claimed that combat probing was to easy now.


Then you haven't been listening.

Bomber probing and on grid fleet probing is obscenely simple, and this change doesn't do a damn thing to help sort out that mess, probing needs a lot more violent nerfing applied to it.


Any suggestions on how to do that without adversely effecting those of us who do a ton of high volume non combat scanning?

I have over 300 signatures scanned out in the past week, having my ability to scan "Violently nerfed" because combat scanning is too easy seems to be a real pain in the ass for the non combat scanning which makes up the vast majority of the time people spend scanning.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#154 - 2014-06-10 18:36:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Owen Levanth wrote:
Meytal wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I, and countless other players, managed to live in w-space long before these modules existed. So them being passive is not a do-or-die issue for living there. Will their usage drop? Almost certainly, in the short run at least, but this is a change we feel is necessary for the overall balance of scanning.

What about making Combat probes ignore these modules? That could accomplish your stated goal everywhere instead of just in wormhole space where cloaking is a must, while simultaneously not nerfing the Core probes.

Edit 1: Ships could have a separate Core probe strength and Combat probe strength, if the modules directly affect the effective scan strength of the ship hulls.

Edit 2: This could lead into additional ship bonuses: scanning bonus for PvE exploration vs scanning bonus for PvP hunting.


It may shock you, but some PVPers scan down sites instead of the ships inside. If you see, for example, wrecks or even a player ship itself on d-scan, you can just move the sliders a bit to look where the ship probably sits and then... you scan down the site the player is most likely in. Then you visit him.

So most PVPers could just evade this issue with special snowflake fits using core probes instead of combat probes. So the modules would still be too powerful in the eyes of CCP.


Confirming this is exactly what one does in a bomber. You really can't fit an expanded probe launcher on a bomber without completely nerfing everything else. But a core probe launcher has no such issues. This is especially useful for indirectly probing out those pesky sebo'd T3s.

Once you're on grid, look around, find a wreck or other warpable object in-line with your target, bookmark it, then warp out and back in.

Also, I was not aware there was an issue with combat probing that required CCP dev intervention.


Edit: Because I have more to say.

After 5+ years, combat sniping is still dead because of probes, and ECCM-fit T3s are still insanely difficult to probe out (though not quite impossible anymore thankfully). Despite this and after years of making probing easier, neither of these two facts have changed.

Making these new probing modules active-on will change none of the above. It will put defenders at an advantage (oh, boy, more lazy game play) and combat probers at a disadvantage, especially in w-space. I remember what probing was like when Apocrypha hit. It was a horror story of difficulty with a massive entry barrier. It is much better now. More people than ever have at least functional probing skills; and those that want them still train them all to 5 for the added benefits.

Lets talk about the probing formula. Recently CCP Greyscale said that the math behind ME and TE was "non-trivial". Have you looked at the scanning formula lately? It makes material wastage look like grammar school math. Oh, wait. It was. If the wastage formulas are in so dire need of changing for that kind of a reason, how has the scanning formula (we won't mention damage application formulas) been left as it is for so long?

To start, the probing formula is completely bass-ackwards. Ships with a stronger sensor strength should be easier to probe, not harder. If I double the output power of my radar, exactly how is that supposed to make it harder to find me?

Now lets talk about covops frigates, shall we? Have you looked at those bonuses lately? The frigate bonuses are for combat. lol, wut? The PG on the buzzard is completely abominable. Fitting a meta MWD, cloak, probe launcher, and 2 scanning upgrades puts it over on PG, and it still has 5 empty slots! Worse, only the MWD requires more than 1 MW of power! These things are in dire need of a rebalance.

So now we have to start putting on fitting mods on ships with lower than average numebrs of low slots. Don't talk about fitting rigs. Then you can't fit gravity cap upgrades, and you're taking an even bigger scanning nerf.

The purpose of covops frigates is scanning and stealth. In their current form they cannot do anything else. The only other ships that can perform their task equally well are tech 3s.

Oops. There's that elephant in the room again. When are we getting a tech 3 rebalance nerf? They are just as good at probing as any other ship in the game, including covops frigates and the SoE ships. T3s destroyed all ship balance in eve the day they were introduced. Still waiting on that. Along with recons. And covops frigates. And blops. And bombers (which are fine imo). All the cloaky stuff seems to have been left behind.

The probing interface is imo in a good place. Its sufficiently easy to use while not being completely "click button get bacon". But if you want to nerf combat probing, start with nerfing combat probes. Then you can go and redo the scanning formula so that higher sensor strength makes it easier to probe out a ship.

Why is it easier for me to probe out 25m3 drones than for a double ECCM-fit T3? Makes no damn sense at all.

While you're at it, why not give a sigRad bloom to ships with remote reps active? All that energy being projected into space should mean something to scanning. Didn't someone just publish an article on how bad massed logistics ships are for the long-term health of fleet pvp?

Combat probing is bad in general because the formula is one of the worst in eve. Scrap it and make up something new.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Toddfish
Multiplex Gaming
The Bastion
#155 - 2014-06-10 20:00:29 UTC
I rarely combat probe, rather spend the majority of my time scanning down cosmic signatures. I have max scanning skills (btw, I trained lvl 5 to use the T2 mods), use scanning implants, and two of the T2 mid-slot scanning upgrades. Since the most time consuming part of exploration, for me, is finding the site to run... anything I can do to speed that up the better.

Currently I scan cloaked. If the modules required activation, I would likely still use them... as most the systems I scan are empty (and I’d just cloak if someone came into system), but it would be annoying when there's someone around slowing down the process.

That said, the major problem I see with scanning while not cloaked is... the Probe scanner interface and the D-Scan interface occupy the same window and (to my knowledge) can’t be separated. So even if I’m sitting at a safe spot scanning, I’ll have to keep switching back/forth between tabs just to see if someone is scanning me down... very annoying.

Owen Levanth wrote:
It may shock you, but some PVPers scan down sites instead of the ships inside. If you see, for example, wrecks or even a player ship itself on d-scan, you can just move the sliders a bit to look where the ship probably sits and then... you scan down the site the player is most likely in. Then you visit him.

So most PVPers could just evade this issue with special snowflake fits using core probes instead of combat probes. So the modules would still be too powerful in the eyes of CCP.

I have zero problem with PvP pilots using this mechanic to find targets. Knowing how long it takes to scan down a cosmic signature, that’s more than enough time for someone who’s paying attention (to local and/or d-scan) to GTFO. Being in a scanned down site shouldn’t equal immunity to PvP (and this is coming from someone who is the prey).
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#156 - 2014-06-15 14:22:50 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ab'del Abu wrote:

I wonder how you came to that conclusion. Before you brought this up, I have never come across anyone who claimed that combat probing was to easy now.


Then you haven't been listening.

Bomber probing and on grid fleet probing is obscenely simple, and this change doesn't do a damn thing to help sort out that mess, probing needs a lot more violent nerfing applied to it.


Well of course, since you know where your targets are, you can just set combat probes to 0.5 AU and will get a 100% hit on most stuff. That's how it is supposed to be and neither odyssey nor the scanning mods really changed that.

Easier probing means more explosions, so that must be good right? :P

As an aside ... bombers are ridiculously OP
Teddyboom
NRDS Holding
Meme. Team. 6.
#157 - 2014-06-15 17:02:13 UTC
As a recent prospect pilot i have used it a lot to ninja mining the drugs gas.
Since the gas do some explosion damage, i need my rigs to tank. (and mobile depot + med slot tank)
So, with that change, i MUST reveal myself in an hostile zone and scream " i'm here to steal your gas please gank me! "

If the problem come from combat probing, pve/exploration probing shouldn't be impact as much as combat probing.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#158 - 2014-06-23 09:28:22 UTC
Any further comments from CCP's side on this btw? Is this going to be rolled back? Seeing as there is an overwhelming consensus that this change is completely unnecessary and unfair ...
Leucy Kerastase
650BN
#159 - 2014-07-20 04:58:30 UTC
There doesn't seem to be any mention about this in the patch notes. I only took a brief look so I may have just overlooked but has this idea been canceled?