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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
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Adria Delphi
Doomheim
#621 - 2011-12-05 02:36:57 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:

I find it funny how you believe Minmatar are perfectly fine and that it is all just a "L2P" issue. Minmatar are so out of line at the moment, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone is flyiing them....

Eventually something will give, but which way CCP will go is anyones guess.


Before the Hybrid boost went live, I was on record as saying a projectile nerf would probably be necessary. I was also hesitant to say it should happen right now because we didn't know where things would be after the hybrid boost went live. My main contention here is that the Hybrid boost is actually far more impressive than people are giving it credit for - to the point that a lot of the old Minmatar stand bys are just not best in class anymore. Its just going to take time for people to accept that.

-Liang


Backpedal harder.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#622 - 2011-12-05 02:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Matuk Grymwal wrote:

At work is a poor excuse. I've put EFT in my Dropbox account so I can EFT ***** anywhere with an internet connection Blink For my gall vs this matar char I get better DPS on the Deimos out to 25. Once I hit 30 the vaga just has the edge. Tracking is essentially the same. EHP is also the same.


I dislike Pyfa and EFT doesn't run on Linux. So yes, its a good "excuse". IIRC I was seeing the Vaga take an advantage at 26-30km (depending on fittings) so that's not too far from what I was seeing. Undoutedly it comes down to fittings.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#623 - 2011-12-05 02:39:16 UTC
Adria Delphi wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:

I find it funny how you believe Minmatar are perfectly fine and that it is all just a "L2P" issue. Minmatar are so out of line at the moment, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone is flyiing them....

Eventually something will give, but which way CCP will go is anyones guess.


Before the Hybrid boost went live, I was on record as saying a projectile nerf would probably be necessary. I was also hesitant to say it should happen right now because we didn't know where things would be after the hybrid boost went live. My main contention here is that the Hybrid boost is actually far more impressive than people are giving it credit for - to the point that a lot of the old Minmatar stand bys are just not best in class anymore. Its just going to take time for people to accept that.

-Liang


Backpedal harder.


You may want to look up what the definition of "backpedal" means. Because I'm damn sure not backing up on the FACT that Gallente isn't nearly as bad as these losers keep making them out to be. Minmatar has never been as good at actually surviving on the battlefield - and threading the needle only works if you expect the damage to be homogeneously ranged.

I will not be surprised next year when people are complaining that Minmatar needs a boost.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Adria Delphi
Doomheim
#624 - 2011-12-05 03:11:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Adria Delphi
Liang Nuren wrote:

You may want to look up what the definition of "backpedal" means. Because I'm damn sure not backing up on the FACT that Gallente isn't nearly as bad as these losers keep making them out to be. Minmatar has never been as good at actually surviving on the battlefield - and threading the needle only works if you expect the damage to be homogeneously ranged.

I will not be surprised next year when people are complaining that Minmatar needs a boost.

-Liang


Oh neat you jump backwards and forwards. That must be fun.

Gallente aren't ****, certainly not after the hybrid buff, but you've been occupying two positions here:

a. Gallente were always fine, minmatar has always been par or sub-par, even post proj-buff and everyone is delusional
b. Minmatar might be slightly OP, projectiles could possible use a nerf given the situation of hybrids after their buff

These two are not compatible. They are mutually exclusive. You must pick one or continue to look like you're arguing for the sake of argument.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#625 - 2011-12-05 03:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Joe Cheap wrote:
I dont know what game you re actually playing.

All i see is Tornado' s destroy everything that moves, just saying.

Large weapon that can track cruiser size if not frig it s just silly, and hitting hard in falloff with short weapon like Ac up to 30-40Km... just silly




Large AC's always COULD track cruisers from about 12km out, the difference is that the Tornado is fast enough to be where it needs to be on the field, something that most hadn't experienced without fighting Machariels...

....which is rare because most "PvP' machs NEVER close with 100km they nuke a couple ships from way and GTFO before they get tackled.


Likewise Tornado isn not a magic bullet, I've killed a couple already with a lowly Hurricane.
Goose99
#626 - 2011-12-05 03:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
Liang Nuren wrote:
Skinae wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

Are we playing the same game? Unless memory is playing tricks, standard kiting vega gets around 50km falloff and close to 3k m/s. It does basically full dps at point range. As opposed to a diemost that's 2k m/s and does basically no dps at that range.


All that sounds just about right.

But LIANG says they're good, so they must be.


-SKINAE


Something is seriously amiss if a Vagabond is doing "full DPS at point range" and the Deimos is doing "basically no DPS at that range". Afterall, a Deimos will outdamage a standard Vagabond out to 26-30km depending on fits....

-Liang


Falloff curve is such that you do around 85% dps 50% into falloff. Cookie cutter kiting vega fit with 2 tes put 50% falloff mark at a bit further than point range, and slightly under oh range. It felt as if you're doing full dmg because, basically, you are. Diemost with 2 tes with null put the edge of falloff at point range, doing almost no dps.

Diemosts I've killed in the past don't have range mods fitted, as they apparently were counting on getting in your face, making them even easier to kite. Haven't ran into any recently, apparently ppl learned to not fly those anymore. Ballooning Winmatar population is a pain though.

Onictus wrote:
Joe Cheap wrote:
I dont know what game you re actually playing.

All i see is Tornado' s destroy everything that moves, just saying.

Large weapon that can track cruiser size if not frig it s just silly, and hitting hard in falloff with short weapon like Ac up to 30-40Km... just silly




Large AC's always COULD track cruisers from about 12km out, the difference is that the Tornado is fast enough to be where it needs to be on the field, something that most hadn't experienced without fighting Machariels...

....which is rare because most "PvP' machs NEVER close with 100km they nuke a couple ships from way and GTFO before they get tackled.


Likewise Tornado isn not a magic bullet, I've killed a couple already with a lowly Hurricane.


Machs are far too expensive for real pvp. That's why there are so many arty sniper gate camper Machs instead of AC gangers. You can't blame them for being risk averse in their 1 bil boats. So yeah, the cane was what made Winmatar what it is, not the Mach. With the introduction of Tornado, Winmatar just got a significant buff.Roll
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#627 - 2011-12-05 03:49:31 UTC
Adria Delphi wrote:

a. Gallente were always fine, minmatar has always been par or sub-par, even post proj-buff and everyone is delusional


What? No, your reading comprehension is very poor indeed if you think I've said anything about Gallente being fine pre boost.

Quote:
b. Minmatar might be slightly OP, projectiles could possible use a nerf given the situation of hybrids after their buff


Correction: Minmatar could potentially have been slightly OP pre-hybrid boost. Certainly with regards to hybrids, but only questionably with regards to lasers. However, the Hybrid boost has been a lot more substantial than I really gave it credit for - its my belief after playing with it for a while that Gallente are going to push Minmatar out of small gang combat while Amarr have never really allowed anyone else into large gang combat. That leaves medium gangs, where Amarr are still the dominant force.

Yeah, there's still going to be some nice Minnie ships - like the Sleipnir, Vaga, and maybe the cane ... but the race as a whole is now looking very wan indeed to my eyes.

Quote:

These two are not compatible. They are mutually exclusive. You must pick one or continue to look like you're arguing for the sake of argument.


Or you could just learn to read and find out that I've not been arguing what you thought I was.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#628 - 2011-12-05 04:25:38 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I want to point out that Dodixie is sold COMPLETELY out of Magnetic Field Stabilizer IIs. The price of a Proteus is up to 250M and most market regions are totally sold out.

-Liang

It´s only to be expected that people want to try out the changes. As soon as they´re gotten their asses kicked as easily as before the "buff", that surge will stop.


TBH I'm beginning to think that Hybrids are OP. And yeah - I'm using them.

-Liang


This is because you are just comparing them to their performance before.

Previously they made about 30% of the paper damage on average, now they are doing about 40% of the paper damage. Since the basic damage also increased we are talking about a 50% increase of the real damage you are causing.
There is the point when you are happy about the changes, they seem so huge.

This sounds huge, but there is a logical fallacy involved: You have merely decreased the gap from paper damage to real damage from 30% to 45% on average, so that 50% damage increase is overall relativly pathetic in comparison with the performance of other weapon systems.

While only having slightly less basic damage, ACs can easily transfer 80% of their paper damage to real damage on average (if flown efficiently and the pilots aren´t sticking around in deep falloff because there you don´t need as much skill and mistakes aren´t fatal). They are still doing vastly more damage. they are still immune to nos/neut, they are still on the fastest and most agile ships, they have still multiple damage types, shield tanking is a quite common option for Minmatar ships, so buffer tanks doesn´t sacrifice speed, also there are often utility highs for nasty surprises like nos/neut, which can be deadly if your opponent needs the cap.

Minmatar are designed and optimized for close combat and sniping (yup, Artys are the perfect sniping weapons, especially on the fastest and most agile hulls). They are not OP, they are just seen this way because all the stuff you need for close combat and sniping are married to the most flexible engagement range. They are the ones that should cover the Gallente combat roles, because they would excel on it.

The Gallente on the other hand will never work in close combat and sniping. They must not become like the Minmatar, but the Minmatar have what is needed for the roles (The only weapon system working exclusively in nos/neut range needs cap? and another weapon that works outside this range does not? A sniping weapon without huge alpha... there is a good reason why sniping is everywhere high alpha, low rate of fire, and fast and agile units: it just doesn´t work otherwise, you can´t reasonably implement sniping with low alpha.)

So Gallente needs other combat roles, anything else won´t solve any balancing issue.

So just exchange the weapon ranges of ACs/Blasters and Rails/Artys (with adjustments to damage and tracking for complementing the range changes) and you have solved:
Minmatar being OP: they aren´t op, they are just designed for another combat role, so they should specialize... and they should -and can- absolutely excel in their specialty.
Gallente being gimped: the most flexible engagement range is enough to offset the many shortcomings, while the latter will make sure they won´t be op in their new role. They make a good generalist: not really outstanding anywhere, but a viable alternative everywhere.
Caldari turret ships: they will become useful. Not outstandingly good, but Caldari won´t be just only missiles any more.
reintroduced sniping: sniping can only be done with huge alpha, therefore artys (a slight increase of probing time might be neccessary, snipers need just barely enough time to get off one shot and then change position).


So much "wrong" that it boggles the mind.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#629 - 2011-12-05 04:56:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Adria Delphi wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:

I find it funny how you believe Minmatar are perfectly fine and that it is all just a "L2P" issue. Minmatar are so out of line at the moment, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone is flyiing them....

Eventually something will give, but which way CCP will go is anyones guess.


Before the Hybrid boost went live, I was on record as saying a projectile nerf would probably be necessary. I was also hesitant to say it should happen right now because we didn't know where things would be after the hybrid boost went live. My main contention here is that the Hybrid boost is actually far more impressive than people are giving it credit for - to the point that a lot of the old Minmatar stand bys are just not best in class anymore. Its just going to take time for people to accept that.

-Liang


Backpedal harder.


You may want to look up what the definition of "backpedal" means. Because I'm damn sure not backing up on the FACT that Gallente isn't nearly as bad as these losers keep making them out to be. Minmatar has never been as good at actually surviving on the battlefield - and threading the needle only works if you expect the damage to be homogeneously ranged.

I will not be surprised next year when people are complaining that Minmatar needs a boost.

-Liang


Gallente weren't that bad. HYBRIDS sucked bad. Minmatar aren't that bad but projectiles were out of whack.

How things stack up now is a far larger question than how they used to be. It will be months until we see how everything works out.

Balancing does not mean "our turn at over powered!" - many in this thread seem to use to justify projectiles based upon "at one time..." Long ago; perhaps but that *IS* LONG ago - not since I've been playing and that is over 2 years.

ANY nerf or additional buffs "elsewhere" won't be accurate until it is known where things are due to changes that just came out. It would be inaccurate adjustments without "use" metrics and those won't be available until things have been used for a while.

Again - "wait and see". Until players use them a lot, nobody will know how they stack up to "adjust correctly". This usage will take months and this "nerf now" thread is out of line until we do know where things are - not where they were before the hybrid fixes and ship tweaks.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#630 - 2011-12-05 05:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
Ugh
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#631 - 2011-12-05 05:27:41 UTC
there was little wrong with Minmatar ships before the buff - and typical of CCP, it was an over buff.

1) Direct DPS buff
2) TE Buff
3) Damage type buff

personally I think that the TE buff should be nullified entierly. That will bring AC ranges down again. THe 9% DD buff should go down to 5% (a 4% reduction in dps), and the damage types should be returned to the previous mixed damage types - and that kind of bonus be given to Hybrids (ala hybrids do 'pure damage').
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#632 - 2011-12-05 05:44:59 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
there was little wrong with Minmatar ships before the buff - and typical of CCP, it was an over buff.

1) Direct DPS buff
2) TE Buff
3) Damage type buff

personally I think that the TE buff should be nullified entierly. That will bring AC ranges down again. THe 9% DD buff should go down to 5% (a 4% reduction in dps), and the damage types should be returned to the previous mixed damage types - and that kind of bonus be given to Hybrids (ala hybrids do 'pure damage').



ummm no

Who about hybrids that are half falloff. They are JUST useable now, cutting the on TE would:
a) make large neutrons hit for about 15km with null, drop ALL of the mediums under 10km
b) force Gallente rail ships into armor tanks to fit TCs
c) COMPLETELY screw Caldari who can't armor tank anyway.

I'm sorry you willingly hamstring yourself into a one race, its a poor mode to make balance decisions from.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#633 - 2011-12-05 05:46:49 UTC
Ruah Piskonit wrote:
there was little wrong with Minmatar ships before the buff - and typical of CCP, it was an over buff.

1) Direct DPS buff
2) TE Buff
3) Damage type buff

personally I think that the TE buff should be nullified entierly. That will bring AC ranges down again. THe 9% DD buff should go down to 5% (a 4% reduction in dps), and the damage types should be returned to the previous mixed damage types - and that kind of bonus be given to Hybrids (ala hybrids do 'pure damage').


It's a good thing that most of CCP's employees, and most of the Eve fan base, are far more intelligent than you. Sometimes I think you PIE folks take this Amarr superiority RPing a little too serious.
Adria Delphi
Doomheim
#634 - 2011-12-05 06:01:45 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Correction: Minmatar could potentially have been slightly OP pre-hybrid boost. Certainly with regards to hybrids, but only questionably with regards to lasers. However, the Hybrid boost has been a lot more substantial than I really gave it credit for - its my belief after playing with it for a while that Gallente are going to push Minmatar out of small gang combat while Amarr have never really allowed anyone else into large gang combat. That leaves medium gangs, where Amarr are still the dominant force.

Yeah, there's still going to be some nice Minnie ships - like the Sleipnir, Vaga, and maybe the cane ... but the race as a whole is now looking very wan indeed to my eyes.


You seemed to be saying that minmatar could be tweaked only AFTER a hybrid boost was settled on and I count that as a rational point of view. Forgive me if I was too generous. And as far as amarr edging everyone out of "large gang," combat. I fly maelstroms in fleet and have been for months now. vOv That isn't to say the abaddon isn't a superior fleet brawler, but if we are to discount all but the best armor tanks then we're using the same assumptions you're hand-waving away about minmatar: that a certain niche role is absolutely best regardless (fleet tank/dps and skirmish speed/agility respectively).

In terms of hand-wringing over eclipsed minmatar ships, I really haven't got the first clue what you're alluding to. I can think of a few gallente ships that were good pre-hybrid-buff that are down-right special now ('ranis probably tops that list), but hardly any where minmatar/gallente were neck and neck, but this hybrid buff suddenly changed the game. Certainly no caldari hybrid ships have surpassed their minmatar counterparts due to the change.

I don't support projectiles being nerfed myself, but you seem so desperate to prove your original hypothesis and braggadocio about hyrbids/gallente that you've complete lost your grip on reality. You've moved from a debate of the minmatar niche (a defensible position) to some hair-brained theorycraft of gallente superiority, and the only back-stop you just provided was some more hand waiving about amarr disallowing minmatar to have a specialty in any gang size.

In the interest of keeping your train of thought coherent, I suggest you back up some of your post-buff claims with a little data. Because from where my FCs are sitting, there isn't going to be a huge flux of gallente ships into our small roams, and minmatar certainly aren't being vacated as our fleet doctrine.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#635 - 2011-12-05 07:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
Look - this is silly. You only need to do one thing to determine the relative power of the racial ships /weapons in PVP. People like to win, therefore, people will fly the ship that gives them the best chance at winning. As a result, the ships that are good at killing and not dying will show up more often at the only place that matters - the killboard.

Its been pasted a number of times in this thread, so I wont do it again, but here is how you look at it: go to the top 20 killer page, its mostly brown, a good bit of gold, one or two grey, and sometimes, if the solar wind blows correctly, there might be an aquamarine there.

That is the best, and only FACT that matters. Its the CSI cold, hard EVIDENCE that answers the debate in this 30+ page thread. That page is the smoking gun (literally) that show who the killer(s) is. The rest of this is just rhetoric and opinion.

Now dont get me wrong - I love debate and banter and this thread has has some pretty well reasoned points from all sides. But eventually, in the face of hard evidence, people should (however grudgingly) acknowledge the problem.

The ONLY HARD EVIDENCE that matters is the killboard. It shows what it shows. Both sides need to acknowledge the FACTS and move on from the arguments. Instead, why dont some of you intrepid souls start a 40 page thread and use the same verve and vigor and multi-quotation skills to come up with a SOLUTION to the issue (Which I would state as: Generally, Matar and Amarr have a good line up of pvp ships, Caldari have a few. Outside of some niche ships (Myrm and Taranis as a examples) Gallente have issues.). There needs to be a massive ship balancing soon (We're looking at you CCP Tallest! ;))

But really, the people still saying that Matar ships/weapons are balanced need to give up the ghost. LOOK at the killboard. Seriously - LOOK AT IT. There is no debate. It is what it is. Accept it and move on (though we need to follow the hybrid changes and let them soak in for a bit too). Move onto coming up with solutions (for all races) that dont involve nerfing the Matar back into the stone age. That is where your efforts should be spent. This thread is - stale.

EDIT: and in response to the post above - as they said, which Matar ships are being shouldered out in Favor of Gallente? You been hearing a lot of calls for Brutix and Myrms in your BC roams all of a sudden?

Just my opinion.

Yes, lots of typos. Im on and iPad and fixing them is a pain. So they are staying.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#636 - 2011-12-05 08:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Quote:
The ONLY HARD EVIDENCE that matters is the killboard. It shows what it shows. Both sides need to acknowledge the FACTS and move on from the arguments. Instead, why dont some of you intrepid souls start a 40 page thread and use the same verve and vigor and multi-quotation skills to come up with a SOLUTION to the issue (Which I would state as: Generally, Matar and Amarr have a good line up of pvp ships, Caldari have a few. Outside of some niche ships (Myrm and Taranis as a examples) Gallente have issues.). There needs to be a massive ship balancing soon (We're looking at you CCP Tallest! ;))


I would define it as

Minmatar and Angel ships generally dominate final blows. Their ships tend to be the best of their class almost without exception besides the BS and capital level.

Amarr is a distant second best.

Caldari are bipolar: either overpowered (Drake, Tengu, Falcon) or underpowered (most other ships).

Gallente has few competitive ships but they do have some.

Basically the recent balancing only made half sense. Caldari and especially Gallente got some boosts, but where are the Minmatar nerfs besides the Dramiel adjustments? Hail was boosted instead. It makes no sense.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#637 - 2011-12-05 10:06:10 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:

Basically the recent balancing only made half sense. Caldari and especially Gallente got some boosts, but where are the Minmatar nerfs besides the Dramiel adjustments? Hail was boosted instead. It makes no sense.


matar isnt the best? that cant happen
at least for ccp's matar fandevs
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#638 - 2011-12-05 10:22:41 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
[quote]
Basically the recent balancing only made half sense. Caldari and especially Gallente got some boosts, but where are the Minmatar nerfs besides the Dramiel adjustments? Hail was boosted instead. It makes no sense.



Dramiel is pirate faction, not matar....and regardless of what the RPers say in this thread matar and amarr and pretty well balanced against each other overall.

Yes the Cane is better than a Harbi (barely) yet Drake is better than both in many situations, when you get into BS's Amarr essentially obsolete EVERY other races' BS's in fleet engagement's Nano-pests and Domi's for those who must solo in small gangs.....and I know Raven and Rohk suck, but I see a LOT of Scorpions running around.

The hail buff is meh, because if you want to use hail you have to be in scram range (yes even now) and that is the death of a ship against damn near everything else....but if you want to armor pig a cane, yeah, the hail buff is nice.

How many armor canes have you seen lately, I think I've ever killed two or three and I'm one a couple pilots that I know that will undock them.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#639 - 2011-12-05 10:52:15 UTC
Adria Delphi wrote:

I don't support projectiles being nerfed myself, but you seem so desperate to prove your original hypothesis and braggadocio about hyrbids/gallente that you've complete lost your grip on reality. You've moved from a debate of the minmatar niche (a defensible position) to some hair-brained theorycraft of gallente superiority, and the only back-stop you just provided was some more hand waiving about amarr disallowing minmatar to have a specialty in any gang size.

In the interest of keeping your train of thought coherent, I suggest you back up some of your post-buff claims with a little data. Because from where my FCs are sitting, there isn't going to be a huge flux of gallente ships into our small roams, and minmatar certainly aren't being vacated as our fleet doctrine.


My original hypothesis was that the Hybrid boost wasn't enough and that we were going to have to nerf Projectiles after the fallout from the Hybrid boost settled down. I'm baffled that you think I'm trying to defend that when I start admitting that maybe I was wrong about the Hybrid boost being enough. -_-

Either way, I spent a fair chunk of time tonight writing a response on my blog - so far its pretty sparse on pretty pictures but you should be able to get the gist of the issue from there. Its also a lot deeper than I've really had time to look at the numbers behind the boost instead of playing the actual game instead. Unfortunately, its not really done and I'd expect to see it tomorrow some time - probably around 10p-12a Pacific. I won't have time to do it at work.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#640 - 2011-12-05 11:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Onictus wrote:

Dramiel is pirate faction, not matar....and regardless of what the RPers say in this thread matar and amarr and pretty well balanced against each other overall.


Your claim is contradicted by CCP's data. Ships that use projectile weapons dominate in final blow charts. Also, Angel ships are effectively minmatar ships: they use the same weapons, have the same slot layouts and the typical speed, agility, sig radius values etc. Balance discussion isn't about labels, but about concrete measures. Angel ships are minmatar in anything but their label.


Quote:
Yes the Cane is better than a Harbi (barely)


Once again, CCP's own data disagrees. The Cane is far better than the Harbi, and the Drake is somewhat better than the Cane. See the following top 5 final blows chart:

Quote:
Battlecruiser:
Drake 732,236
Hurricane 629,933
Harbinger 236,607
Myrmidon 116,046
Brutix 85,931


Quote:
How many armor canes have you seen lately


Why armor tank and gimp your own speed when you can shield tank instead? Armor mods and rigs need to have their speed penalties removed (replaced by sig radius penalty), then the ships relying on them can finally start competing with shield tankers. Speed makes all the difference.