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[Proposal] Get rid of learning implants.

Author
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#61 - 2011-12-04 08:47:05 UTC
I plugged in +4s as soon as the LP store was introduced and the price fell to 20M. Kept right on PvPing and living in nullsec the whole 4 years.

Yeah I've lost a few sets, but the overhead was more than acceptable for the reward. If the horrible prospect of losing 36M ISK worth or implants is keeping you from PvPing now, then removing implants won't stop you being a huge risk-averse baby. You'll just find some other reason.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#62 - 2011-12-04 08:59:37 UTC
Andski wrote:
Reducing the jump clone timer (or removing it out right) has the same effect so vOv you're just rambling

Although I do fear that it'd lead to ~strategic~ placement of jump clones and allow large alliances to essentially run multiple campaigns at once in opposite sides of the galaxy and be able to react far better to attacks on allies, again, in opposite sides of the galaxy. Have you considered that? Replacing learning implants with +5 to the base values of all five attributes is a better solution.


Removing attribute implants means you can just self destruct your pod and instantly jump across eve as well. The only practical difference here is changing the timer doesn't remove an important game element. That said, I'm completely fine with things the way they are in regards to implants/clone jumping and I think you'll find that most others are as well.

And as has been stated, if the thought of losing 50M isk in implants keeps you from pvping, then I'm pretty sure you wouldn't risk that 60M isk drake either. So yeah, you aren't going to pvp in this game no matter what I happens I think.Blink

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2011-12-04 09:14:35 UTC
Attack the argument, not the person.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#64 - 2011-12-04 09:18:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
King Rothgar wrote:
Andski wrote:
Reducing the jump clone timer (or removing it out right) has the same effect so vOv you're just rambling

Although I do fear that it'd lead to ~strategic~ placement of jump clones and allow large alliances to essentially run multiple campaigns at once in opposite sides of the galaxy and be able to react far better to attacks on allies, again, in opposite sides of the galaxy. Have you considered that? Replacing learning implants with +5 to the base values of all five attributes is a better solution.


Removing attribute implants means you can just self destruct your pod and instantly jump across eve as well. The only practical difference here is changing the timer doesn't remove an important game element. That said, I'm completely fine with things the way they are in regards to implants/clone jumping and I think you'll find that most others are as well.

And as has been stated, if the thought of losing 50M isk in implants keeps you from pvping, then I'm pretty sure you wouldn't risk that 60M isk drake either. So yeah, you aren't going to pvp in this game no matter what I happens I think.Blink


I'm not a risk-averse baby who is scared of losing implants, hell, I PvP with +4s and I have extra sets on hand. I don't have an insane amount of ISK, but implants aren't a dent on my wallet. That's not the case for everyone, though, is it?

Are you forgetting that the guy who gets podded has, in 99% of cases, lost his ship at some point prior? Popping someone's faction cruiser/HAC/T3 inflicts a visible loss, doesn't it?

It's not about me wanting to skill faster, it's about a bad game mechanic.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#65 - 2011-12-04 11:05:01 UTC
You're entitled to your opinion but I think it's a good game mechanic. You pay isk to train skills faster and risk losing that bonus if you engage in risky activities. What is so wrong with that?

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]

Aineko Macx
#66 - 2011-12-04 11:44:49 UTC
Andski wrote:
Reducing the jump clone timer (or removing it out right) has the same effect so vOv you're just rambling

You can't remove it completely, that would screw things up hard. But I'm in favor of, instead of removing learning implants, introduce the much discussed skill to reduce clone timer. 1-2h per level should do the trick nicely.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#67 - 2011-12-04 12:10:15 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
You're entitled to your opinion but I think it's a good game mechanic. You pay isk to train skills faster and risk losing that bonus if you engage in risky activities. What is so wrong with that?


They're a relic. It's basically the same thing as learning skills. Oblivious, new players screw themselves over by not getting them as soon as possible. It's yet another mechanic that alienates them.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Tomytronic
Perkone
Caldari State
#68 - 2011-12-04 12:16:58 UTC
There is no good argument in favour of 24 hour jump clone timers, learning implants and arbitrary learning attributes.

I'd like to see someone from CCP defend having to stay a year remapped into Charisma because you want to be an FC.
Jaari Val'Dara
Grim Sleepers
#69 - 2011-12-04 13:30:15 UTC
Yes, learning implants suck.
We need more combat, more pirate implants. Perhaps some T3 implants.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#70 - 2011-12-04 18:02:50 UTC
stopped playing eve because of learning implants. 5 times. In a row. Now i have two metal plates in my brain. Feels cold.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Lunce
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#71 - 2011-12-04 18:10:29 UTC
Andski wrote:
Alticus C Bear wrote:
I kept trying to rationalise keeping learning implants but not sure if I can, however I think I have come to the conclusion that it is not the learning implants that are the barrier as In my High Sec clone I have more combat implants that are just as expensive that I would also not want to risk losing.

I would rather shorten the jump clone timer to say 12hrs. that said I still think that the combat implants are more interesting to use and so would probably still support the proposal.


Reduced jump clone timers would work in a pinch, but in my opinion learning implants are dumb and, well, nobody has come forward with a reasonable objection to their removal, just forum alts parroting "RISK RISK RISK" crap.



Here's an idea to kick around. Lets say that CCP decides not to remove learning implants from the game (a very good probability.) How about charging a base ISK amount to set the jump-clone timer to 0? It could be modified by the total levels of implants (learning and combat) implanted in your clone, and perhaps additionally modified by the number of hours left before you could normally jump-clone again?

This way, if you had x number of hours left before you could jump-clone, and something came up, you would have the option to jump-clone immediately.

This does not solve the problem of the ISK strapped pilots, but it would promote flexibility and fun (PVP) in the game.
Dravidshky
Falling Outside The Normal Moral Constraints
#72 - 2011-12-04 18:39:56 UTC
Max Von Sydow wrote:
This reminds me of an old thread that had a fairly interesting proposal on how to fix this problem.

The idea was more or less to have learning boosters that temporarily (maybe 24h) give you a boost in an attribute, each taking a different booster slot, each giving a bonus in a different attribute, coming in different grades ranging from +1 boosts to +5 boosts.
These implants would not stack with implants so if you already have implants the boosters wouldn't do anything, unless the booster effect is higher than the implants. So if you have +3 implants and inject a +4 booster you will have a +4 bonus for the duration of the booster.
I personally liked this idea since it mean that I for a small cost can PvP without losing training time and not having to risk my learning implants, while at the same time having the drawback that I would have to spend some extra isk each time I want to PvP.


I remember that thread and this idea is my favorite so far.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2011-12-04 23:01:11 UTC
Near as can tell, the jump clone timer is helpful for keeping folk from bouncing from one end of space to the other at will and with no consequences. Sort of like the old jump bridges, come to think of it; at least, that was the argument made for nerfing them. But anyways.

Essentially, the current system encourages players, especially nullsec and lowsec residents, to develop a "home base," because it prevents a nullsec resident from bouncing to high-sec at will to grind ISK, then instantly jumping back to null for a fleet op, or jump cloning for a fleet op in Stain and then jumping back to Geminate to run sanctums. So currently, jump cloning has moderate drawbacks, and forces a player to weigh whether jump cloning is worth it, or whether he should wait or find an alternate route for accomplishing what he wants. Removing the timer might lead more players to live in high-sec and only jump clone up for major fleets, reducing null population. Or it might not, for those players who already have high-sec alts grinding missions or incursions. I do know that it'd be nice to be able to hop down to high-sec once in a while for PvE without worrying about missing a fleet op.

Also not sure whether removing the learning implants is good or bad, if only because they probably serve as a useful ISK and LP sink. The big issue with learning skills was that they (1) were functionally mandatory and (2) kept players from getting into ships and doing fun stuff early on because they felt compelled to train learning skills. Learning implants aren't considered mandatory, because their effects are relatively small, to the point where players who actively PvP won't bother to inject implants into the game, the training time for them is fairly short, and the +1 to +3 implants are cheap enough that even active PvPers can afford to replace one or two of them, while new players can probably save up enough to buy them without it significantly affecting their gameplay, if at all. At least, I had no issue affording a full set of +3 implants when I started, and a set of +4 implants was a nice goal once I got into a battleship.

Those at risk of losing implants through PvP have to make a choice between faster training time or losing ISK when podded. But that's fairly similar to the effect learning implants had on new players, even if older players should be able to balance cost and benefit better, so I wouldn't consider it a terrible loss for the game if learning implants were removed. If attributes are boosted as well, then it would definitely be a minor benefit for those who actively PvP, though doubt it would really affect newer players all that much.

Removing attributes themselves sounds kind of messy, and I'm not sure who it would really benefit, if anyone. New players already start off with a generic attribute distribution, and so aren't locked into anything. Nor does the game force a player to remap attributes. This character spent two years with an even attribute distribution, because I had no real idea what I would train even two months down the road and didn't want to be locked into a training plan; even though others were training faster than this character, I don't think attributes or remap timers really hurt me in any way, or stopped me from having fun, but maybe I'm just an oddball. In general, I like meaningful choice, and it seems as though attributes and remaps provide that -- a player who knows what he wants can remap and train for it quickly, while a player who doesn't can stick with an even attribute distribution and train slightly slower, but with the option of training for something else at any time.

Tomytronic
Perkone
Caldari State
#74 - 2011-12-05 01:53:27 UTC
Once again, let me ask why people are still clinging to the arbitrary restrictions on their fun?
Goose99
#75 - 2011-12-05 03:50:36 UTC
Tomytronic wrote:
Once again, let me ask why people are still clinging to the arbitrary restrictions on their fun?


Why do you cling on arbitrary entitlement of +5 while having fun? Or arbitrary zero loss when podded? Action and consequence, where's yours?

Train without +5, problem solved. What? You're entitled to +5?Lol
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#76 - 2011-12-05 04:07:26 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Tomytronic wrote:
Once again, let me ask why people are still clinging to the arbitrary restrictions on their fun?


Why do you cling on arbitrary entitlement of +5 while having fun? Or arbitrary zero loss when podded? Action and consequence, where's yours?

Train without +5, problem solved. What? You're entitled to +5?Lol


why do you refuse to post with your main?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2011-12-05 04:12:30 UTC
I wholeheartedly support this proposal. It would be a hard decision if stats actually affected the game beyond skill training, but they don't.

Relegate the learning implants to the darkest pits of oblivion and add more boosting implants in their place.

Goose99 wrote:


Train without +5, problem solved. What? You're entitled to +5?Lol


Yeah, kids these days and their entitlement to play EVE.


 Though All Men Do Despise Us

Sephiroth CloneIIV
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2011-12-05 04:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephiroth Clone VII
risk vs reward is good, but are attribute implants or attributes really necessary?

I would say anything that discourages activity should be removed, encouraging more activity is a good thing.

That way, a person could train as fast regardless of implants, so people might use some, or none. Implantless body, who cares ill train just as fast.

a person could use a 60 mil drake, but what if they pvp in a much lighter ship due to lack of funds.

Going with that, younger chars likely every skillpoint counts because they can't do as cool stuff otherwise (be the pro with the tech 2 ship with the tech 2 fit). For example me, losing training time on my main doesn't mean as much being that I can do just about anything from fly a hulk to carrier, and every racial BS, and a slew of tech 2 ships. If you reach a certain point as a established char, you just try to think of long skills to train for obscure bonus that is not even necessary for you.

Same think with implants, tens to hundred or so million is a portion of my wealth, to the noob that's like everything.

Anything encouraging more fights is a good thing, more new people in the game, people less hesitant in general.

Keep clone costs still obviously, maybe bump them up a bit to make up for people not spending isk on learning implants.
Intar Medris
KarmaFleet University
#79 - 2011-12-05 06:33:41 UTC
I think the real damn problem is that it would take 37.5 years to train all skills to 5. Which is ridiculously stupid. Skill training has been seriously flawed from the beginning. It is horrendously slow, and takes entirely too long. EVE isn't going to be around forever people, or atleast not this incarnation of it. It is almost nine years old. I think at max training time of say 4-6 years is more in line with reality.

I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen.

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#80 - 2011-12-05 06:36:50 UTC
Intar Medris wrote:
I think the real damn problem is that it would take 37.5 years to train all skills to 5. Which is ridiculously stupid. Skill training has been seriously flawed from the beginning. It is horrendously slow, and takes entirely too long. EVE isn't going to be around forever people, or atleast not this incarnation of it. It is almost nine years old. I think at max training time of say 4-6 years is more in line with reality.


No thanks.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar