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Procurer/Skiffs are imbalanced now vs the other barges.

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Dave Stark
#41 - 2014-06-04 16:07:53 UTC
this has always been the case, it has only taken you how long to notice?
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2014-06-04 16:54:19 UTC
surely procurers should have drone damage amps rather than weird mining mods?

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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#43 - 2014-06-04 16:59:22 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
surely procurers should have drone damage amps rather than weird mining mods?

No, they should have a power core and overdrives in their lows to bump CODE out of the belts.

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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-06-04 17:06:22 UTC
Silky Cyno wrote:
You can still gank them, you just have to spend 10 times what there worth to do it.

Did you really expect CCP to let a large part of the player base to take it in the B-hole forever vs gankers before they gave them a tanky decent boat ?

They already had a tanky decent boat. It was called at procurer or Skiff. That said, these changes don't really affect highsec gankers much; they're more targeted at low sec/ null sec small mining groups. I can't wait to see people get killed by a trio of skiffs that were minding their own business.

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
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#45 - 2014-06-04 17:11:04 UTC
If the numbers haven't changed since I last looked at them:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1os33ZVJKyRfG3GY3taX0Se25dlTbNOoCLHprP7WoRKQ/edit#gid=205270633

yes, the skiff and the mack have the same yield.

However, the mack has double the cargohold, so spends less time off-loading to station.

Of course, you could bring in another character to carry your ore for you (say, in an orca or DST). But at that point, you're losing out to the 30% bonus to yield that hulks have, over the other two.

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#46 - 2014-06-04 17:16:01 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
If the numbers haven't changed since I last looked at them:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1os33ZVJKyRfG3GY3taX0Se25dlTbNOoCLHprP7WoRKQ/edit#gid=205270633

yes, the skiff and the mack have the same yield.

However, the mack has double the cargohold, so spends less time off-loading to station.

Of course, you could bring in another character to carry your ore for you (say, in an orca or DST). But at that point, you're losing out to the 30% bonus to yield that hulks have, over the other two.


Or, alternatively, live with the fact you are on the move a little more (gasp a whole 3 or 4 minutes of mining time lost) and thusly an even worse target for gankers to pick

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Felicity Love
Doomheim
#47 - 2014-06-04 17:29:02 UTC
... it's a popcorn-munching kind of day... always is, right after a patch...

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
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#48 - 2014-06-04 17:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
If the numbers haven't changed since I last looked at them:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1os33ZVJKyRfG3GY3taX0Se25dlTbNOoCLHprP7WoRKQ/edit#gid=205270633

yes, the skiff and the mack have the same yield.

However, the mack has double the cargohold, so spends less time off-loading to station.

Of course, you could bring in another character to carry your ore for you (say, in an orca or DST). But at that point, you're losing out to the 30% bonus to yield that hulks have, over the other two.


Or, alternatively, live with the fact you are on the move a little more (gasp a whole 3 or 4 minutes of mining time lost) and thusly an even worse target for gankers to pick



Yup. Assuming a 4 minute turn around. (and ignoring a bunch of benefits. so this is less than entirely valid)

For a skiff, you have a bay of 15,000 m3.
That takes 21 minutes to fill. So a complete cycle for a skiff is 25 minutes.
So that's a yield of 600m3/minute

For a Mack, you have a bay of 35,000 m3
That's 49 minutes to fill. So a complete cycle is 53 minutes.
So that's a yield of 660m3/minute.

or a 10% bonus.

Of course, this isn't valid math, as there are other multipliers, which will reduce the times to fill, while not changing the travel time. but they should have similar effects on both, which favours the mack. (900m3/minute converts to 714, and 813, or about 14% better)

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The Troll Bridge
#49 - 2014-06-04 17:57:03 UTC
Anyone who is fitting Procs and Skiffs for yield is doing it wrong.






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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#50 - 2014-06-04 18:13:23 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
numbers


Cool maths, bro

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Iain Cariaba
#51 - 2014-06-04 19:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Nopatience wrote:
I don't know how to fit my ships.

Strange, cause I can fit my mackanaw enough to tank null belt rats more than long enough for my wing of medium drones to kill them off, while keeping my lows full of mining upgrades. The problem isn't in the ships, it's in the pilot.
Nopatience
Doomheim
#52 - 2014-06-04 19:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nopatience
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Strange, cause I can fit my mackanaw enough to tank null belt rats more than long enough for my wing of medium drones to kill them off, while keeping my lows full of mining upgrades. The problem isn't in the ships, it's in the pilot.


That's really great, but it doesn't change the facts stated.
Iain Cariaba
#53 - 2014-06-04 19:32:52 UTC
Nopatience wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Strange, cause I can fit my mackanaw enough to tank null belt rats more than long enough for my wing of medium drones to kill them off, while keeping my lows full of mining upgrades. The problem isn't in the ships, it's in the pilot.


That's really great, but it doesn't change the facts stated.

When you consider the fact that your inability to fit your ships is the core issue, not a supposed imbalance to the mining barges, it does indeed change the facts.

You are misrepresenting the issue as a matter of game mechanics, when this is the problem exists between chair and keyboard.
Nopatience
Doomheim
#54 - 2014-06-04 19:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nopatience
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Nopatience wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Strange, cause I can fit my mackanaw enough to tank null belt rats more than long enough for my wing of medium drones to kill them off, while keeping my lows full of mining upgrades. The problem isn't in the ships, it's in the pilot.


That's really great, but it doesn't change the facts stated.

When you consider the fact that your inability to fit your ships is the core issue, not a supposed imbalance to the mining barges, it does indeed change the facts.

You are misrepresenting the issue as a matter of game mechanics, when this is the problem exists between chair and keyboard.


Inability to fit what ships? I have pointed out that the skiff has ridiculous amounts of spare CPU due to only having to fit one mining module and it should be brought down to be in line with the other barges. In what language of yours does this translate into I can't fit my ships? The skiff is a smaller ship than the mackinkaw or hulk and does not need to use so much of its CPU fitting basic modules it needs to do the function it was designed for, yet it has more cpu than the mackinkaw and almost as much as the hulk. I do not want the other barges buffed, barge users have always had to choose between max yield or max tank. The skiff has so much CPU to use, it can have both.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#55 - 2014-06-04 19:53:12 UTC
Nopatience wrote:

Inability to fit what ships? I have pointed out that the skiff has ridiculous amounts of spare CPU due to only having to fit one mining module and it should be brought down to be in line with the other barges. In what language of yours does this translate into I can't fit my ships? The skiff is a smaller ship than the mackinkaw or hulk and does not need to use so much of its CPU fitting basic modules it needs to do the function it was designed for, yet it has more cpu than the mackinkaw and almost as much as the hulk. I do not want the other barges buffed, barge users have always had to choose between max yield or max tank. The skiff has so much CPU to use, it can have both.


There are plenty of other modules you can fit on it that use CPU too

The Mack and Hulksmash have too few slots to warrant as high CPU yield by comparison

But please tell me more about how you can have max yield and max tank when both make use of low slots to achieve this fully

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
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#56 - 2014-06-04 19:56:54 UTC
Nopatience wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Nopatience wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:

Strange, cause I can fit my mackanaw enough to tank null belt rats more than long enough for my wing of medium drones to kill them off, while keeping my lows full of mining upgrades. The problem isn't in the ships, it's in the pilot.


That's really great, but it doesn't change the facts stated.

When you consider the fact that your inability to fit your ships is the core issue, not a supposed imbalance to the mining barges, it does indeed change the facts.

You are misrepresenting the issue as a matter of game mechanics, when this is the problem exists between chair and keyboard.


Inability to fit what ships? I have pointed out that the skiff has ridiculous amounts of spare CPU due to only having to fit one mining module and it should be brought down to be in line with the other barges. In what language of yours does this translate into I can't fit my ships? The skiff is a smaller ship than the mackinkaw or hulk and does not need to use so much of its CPU fitting basic modules it needs to do the function it was designed for, yet it has more cpu than the mackinkaw and almost as much as the hulk. I do not want the other barges buffed, barge users have always had to choose between max yield or max tank. The skiff has so much CPU to use, it can have both.



Max yield = not max tank

A max tank skiff is a monstrosity with both shield and hull tank. Throw on some reinforced bulkheads and a DC II. That's an extra 9k or so, just from the hull.

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#57 - 2014-06-04 20:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Steve Ronuken wrote:

Max yield = not max tank

A max tank skiff is a monstrosity with both shield and hull tank. Throw on some reinforced bulkheads and a DC II. That's an extra 9k or so, just from the hull.
You can add another 5-6k + resists to the hull with a pair of T1 Transverse Bulkheads

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Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#58 - 2014-06-04 20:17:55 UTC
I remember when the debate raged about miner hisec ganking and people trying to teach miners how to fit for tank to prevent being ganked and the immediate rebuttal was always BUT MY ORE YEILD. So what you see now is CCP holding your hand for you when it comes to fitting ships. Simply by choosing a ship hull you are forced to either tank well, strip ore well, or carry well. Nothing has really changed except that the ship hull does what the player had the ability to do all along before this became a thing.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#59 - 2014-06-04 20:18:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
To put an even finer focus on the dev post quoted at the bottom of page 1 (thanks friend). Smile

Quote:
The Procurer and Skiff remain the tankiest of the barges, and the Skiff gains an extra low slot (bringing its fitted yield up to the same level as the Mackinaw) as well as a new bonus to drone damage and hitpoints. Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense.


The Procurer and Skiff have the CPU to fit for effective mining AND all out combat. That is their job, and even more of a focus for the vessel than merely being difficult to gank in high sec.

And before you misinterpret yet again, the sacrifices mentioned in the post refers to the fact that they have less yield than a Hulk, and half the cargo bay of a Mac... it is not referring to sacrifices between yield and tank.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#60 - 2014-06-04 20:24:23 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Here's a number: 706

This is the meters my Skiff can go per second. You may call this imbalanced, I just call it awesome.

That's quite fast for a miner.... ???

Why?? :D

To dodge bumpers. CCP said they are OK with bumping but players should have a counter to bumping.

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