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CCP, what has changed?

First post First post
Author
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#1 - 2014-06-04 11:33:17 UTC
Genuine question without (trying to) have a smirking undertone; What has changed over the years that resulted in expansions being smooth as ****, as they are now? Previous expansions caused uhm... issues and in some case quite a lot of them but it seems these days you have that **** down.

Again, not interested in finger pointing, trolling or anything. Just genuinely curious.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#2 - 2014-06-04 11:34:50 UTC
Just like with PvP in EVE: You fail horribly often enough, you will eventually get good at fighting. You die, you learn. It's the EVE way.
Marsha Mallow
#3 - 2014-06-04 11:38:03 UTC
I bet these mini patches they keep doing help, even though people keep grrring over them.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#4 - 2014-06-04 11:38:44 UTC
the hamster breeding program, they now have thoroughbred ones by this stage.
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#5 - 2014-06-04 11:39:37 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Genuine question without (trying to) have a smirking undertone; What has changed over the years that resulted in expansions being smooth as ****, as they are now? Previous expansions caused uhm... issues and in some case quite a lot of them but it seems these days you have that **** down.

Again, not interested in finger pointing, trolling or anything. Just genuinely curious.


Oh i remember the days when patches took an entire day and sometimes rendered the server dead for a couple of days, you guys really missed out on those vital experiences :P
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#6 - 2014-06-04 12:05:51 UTC
Practice.

Lots of practice; and After Action Reviews. Look at what you got right, and wrong, so you can keep doing the right things, and not do the wrong things.

and QA.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#7 - 2014-06-04 12:51:11 UTC
There was a devblog a year(?) back or so that described some of the changes they had made in the roll-out process. Iirc, a lot of it had to do with adding in some very deliberate testing steps and semi-automated checks of what had to happen both before a build went live and before the server was brought up. They also had a presentation on it during either FF'12 or FF'13.

If you dig through that little pile, there should be some concrete information there.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#8 - 2014-06-04 14:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Goliath
Gregor Parud wrote:
Genuine question without (trying to) have a smirking undertone; What has changed over the years that resulted in expansions being smooth as ****, as they are now? Previous expansions caused uhm... issues and in some case quite a lot of them but it seems these days you have that **** down.

Again, not interested in finger pointing, trolling or anything. Just genuinely curious.


In short, continually striving to become better than last time. It's a near-constant effort and, as you see, it pays off very handsomely. Always looking for optimisations and improving our estimations and risk assessments, and we know we can keep going and do better!

EDIT: Shameless plug - here's an example of a large change we made.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#9 - 2014-06-04 14:17:59 UTC
QA is one of the most boringest things to try and explain.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Ahost Gceo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-06-04 14:24:23 UTC
CCP is not trying to shove a half a baguette in their mouth anymore, they are eating a slice at a time.

CCP ignore me please, I make too much sense.

Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-06-04 14:25:11 UTC
Cypherous wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Genuine question without (trying to) have a smirking undertone; What has changed over the years that resulted in expansions being smooth as ****, as they are now? Previous expansions caused uhm... issues and in some case quite a lot of them but it seems these days you have that **** down.

Again, not interested in finger pointing, trolling or anything. Just genuinely curious.


Oh i remember the days when patches took an entire day and sometimes rendered the server dead for a couple of days, you guys really missed out on those vital experiences :P


They were writing the code on a TI-85 and compiling it on a C64. Accidents do happen.
stoicfaux
#12 - 2014-06-04 14:55:26 UTC
Continual process improvement. If you have standardized build and deployment processes, then you can a) automate them, and b) you can improve them as you re-use them. However, if your processes rely on ad-hoc and/or manual steps, then every process is unique and thus cannot be re-used which means no process improvement. Meaning every ad-hoc/manual step has probably only been tested once or twice (or not at all) in a QA/pre-staging environment by your SCM/deployment team before being run by hand during the production deployment (which occurs during off-hours when everyone is brain dead.) Manual steps are not a recipe for success on the first try.

Follow the damn Process: (aka "fast isn't fast, smooth is fast.") Taking short cuts, at best, tends to result in a gain in the immediate short term. Some of the time. For a few people. Short cuts, in the average case, tend to make more work because your shortcut tends to get someone else downstream screwed, e.g. a developer who "re-uses" a ticket to check-in instead of creating a new one has saved themselves a few minutes of work, but now the QA team isn't going to get an accurate build report and will waste time re-testing the wrong thing, thus the check-in will contain untested code, which could introduce bugs, which will confuse the prod support team (according to the patch notes, that system wasn't changed, so we didn't troubleshoot it!) which results in the developer having to work extra and/or off-hours to find the problem and check-in the fix. A fix that requires the following people's time to implement: dev, dev manager, dev ops, change control board, SCM, QA, spouses & children, etc..

Following and Improving the Processes tends to result in smoother dev cycles, i.e. more time working and less time fighting fires. This is in turn reduces stress, results in people getting more sleep (i.e. less off-hours bug-hunting, fewer people needed for off-hours deployments, etc.) Which in turn results in a better quality of life for your teams, which results in happier employees, which results in lower turnover, which results in more experienced devs, and expreienced devs are many, many, many more times more efficient than a horde of newbies.


tl;dr - Only a moron (aka a bad developer) calls it red tape.

/rant off

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#13 - 2014-06-04 15:32:52 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
QA is one of the most boringest things to try and explain.

They're almost as annoying as sales and marketing, and in some ways worse since they are most often right :/

Which is why everyone should feed QA people with beer at fanfest.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.

Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#14 - 2014-06-04 15:45:30 UTC
Feeding QA people will beer would be counter productive...

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#15 - 2014-06-04 15:48:23 UTC
Don't get too excited. The Contested Guristas Covert Research Facilities are not despawning after players hack and loot them. I have scanned down 3 in the last 10 minutes and they were all empty and wasting my time.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#16 - 2014-06-04 15:59:49 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Don't get too excited. The Contested Guristas Covert Research Facilities are not despawning after players hack and loot them. I have scanned down 3 in the last 10 minutes and they were all empty and wasting my time.


At least nothing has gone skynet again, so baby steps.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2014-06-04 16:00:59 UTC
Harrison Tato wrote:
Don't get too excited. The Contested Guristas Covert Research Facilities are not despawning after players hack and loot them. I have scanned down 3 in the last 10 minutes and they were all empty and wasting my time.

What you think stuff just vanishes in space?
Christopher AET
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-06-04 16:16:29 UTC
QA is hugely important in many things.

My line of work is far removed from making games (aircraft engineering) but there is always a drive to follow process and improve it too. That's not to say...."workarounds" don't happen.

Stoicfaux what you were saying is anything but a rant.

I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.

Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-06-04 16:18:14 UTC
Christopher AET wrote:
QA is hugely important in many things.

My line of work is far removed from making games (aircraft engineering) but there is always a drive to follow process and improve it too. That's not to say...."workarounds" don't happen.

Stoicfaux what you were saying is anything but a rant.


xD I would hope there's QA in aircraft engineering..
Marsha Mallow
#20 - 2014-06-04 16:31:07 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
In short, continually striving to become better than last time. It's a near-constant effort and, as you see, it pays off very handsomely. Always looking for optimisations and improving our estimations and risk assessments, and we know we can keep going and do better!

EDIT: Shameless plug - here's an example of a large change we made.

Tbf that video is nearly as long as the patch. Can't you just issue 5 minute voiceover summaries of these vids with Mr G doing the shower thing?

To answer the OP, nothing has changed. Pretty sure we can still bellyache about something.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

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