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Prepare new players for suicide gankers

First post
Author
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-06-03 19:03:18 UTC
There isn't a day without someone posting tears on this forum because his shiny was suicide ganked. They usually demand suicide ganking to be removed. Even more victims just quit silently.

I've never lost cargo to suicide gankers, despite most of my income comes from hauling implants and other small but expensive stuff between trade hubs. Why? Not because the game taught me, but because I've read up, asked around and sit behind EFT a lot. My suggestion is to fix that with a simple mission from the career agent.

The mission looks normal and innocent enough. A courier mission to transport cargo in the T1 industrial you got as reward in the previous step. The mission text has fitting advice and warns of suicide gankers. The trick is that the cargo is so large that with newbie skills, you have to take two turns in a tanked industrial. Or you can fit nothing but cargo expanders in the lows, instead of the Damage Control and armor tank for Gallente and Amarr, fitting modules for the shield tank for Caldari and Minmatar (remember, newbie, low skills). The time bonus of the mission is large for a newbie (2M for example), but the time to complete it for the bonus is only possible if he makes the transport in one run. There is also a "high" collateral (1M is a fortune for a newbie, that's two T1 frigs).

In the target system he has to warp to a deadspace complex (to lock out random players interfering) with a mock stargate to deliver the cargo to. NPC pirates named "Capsuleer suicide ganker" jump on him as he approaches the "gate". If he followed the fitting advice, he has enough EHP with newbie skills to survive in deep hull. If he fitted full cargo expanders, he is dead before Concord arrives (Concord responds as they would to a player suicide ganker). He isn't podded though, so he can watch as "Hauler of the gank crew" goes suspect on his wreck and steals what's dropped. Then the Concord Police Captain messages him "Warp your pod off and read my mail!". In the first half of the mail, he get the fitting advice repeated and some more info about suicide ganking. This time he'll read it, since he lost his ship, the mission collateral and probably an underwear. After he returns to the career agent, the mission is acceptable again, so after he farmed for a new hauler, he can complete it - if he tanks his hauler properly. He can keep the mail of the Concord Police Captain and read the second half with fitting ideas to other haulers, EHP/ISK ratios, typical gank ships and other useful info when he'll need it.

This idea would utilize the "learn while doing" and force the player to not ignore gankers, without the punishment being devastating. Losing a ship, fitting, 1M collateral stings a newbie but doesn't ruin him, like flying everything he has in a zero tank Iteron. Also, the mission finally ends with him surviving a suicide gank in hull and being able to loot the ganker ships for meta blasters, faction antimatter ammo and such usual ganker drops.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-06-03 19:10:10 UTC
Supported. When I was suicide ganked for the first time long ago, I actually submitted a ticket thinking this is some kind of game mechanics' exploit. As SG became so ubiqiutous and integral part of game world, new players should be familiarized with it from the baby steps.

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link

w3ak3stl1nk
Hedion University
#3 - 2014-06-03 20:43:03 UTC
There are a lot of things that could be introduced in tutorials. Besides this the new player training sessions need to be converted to tutorials.
+1 anyways

Is that my two cents or yours?

Walter Hart White
Heisenberg Minings
#4 - 2014-06-03 21:39:01 UTC
T1 industrials are unavailable for trial users, would not work.
Next Zunn
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-06-03 23:46:07 UTC
No need to be so detailed with the mission...

Standard courier mission, your granted some random frigate before the mission, given 5m3 of whatever and sent to a mock Stargate to deliver the item and then an NPC blows you up, a pop up can then explain suicide tankers and how you shouldn't fly what you can't afford, even in high sec.

+1 though. Good idea.
Alternative Splicing
Captain Content and The Contenteers
#6 - 2014-06-04 00:35:42 UTC
The most effective teachers are other players, who would be wise enough to say that you are -never- safe, and the most you can do is mitigate risk.
Giving people canned, campy, staged missions survivable with an once of tank would just make the tears even better when they are targeted by a determined gank. Plus there are so many other ways for bad things to happen to people - scams, awox, etc; do all of these need missions too?

NPCs shouldn't handhold, because ultimately they are bad stewards of players. Players will always find some way to get at each other which isnt explicitly outlined. Then who is responsible?

Highsec breeds easy prey.
DJ FunkyBacon
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Monkeys with Guns.
#7 - 2014-06-04 02:17:36 UTC
The tutorials do a fair job of explaining that you're not safe, and the advanced military career agent goes into stuff like ship loss and various aspects of PVP play. You already can't read any overview about Eve without mention of suicide ganking or "griefing". Just how much hand holding do you want here Gevlon? I have zero sympathy for people mewling over losing stuff. Live and learn.

Or you could channel some of your goon rage into educating the masses about these easily preventable situations in highsec. Unfortunately, we both know it wouldn't make a lick of difference, and neither would plastering it on the gate billboards of every system or blasting it all over the TV in the CQ. There is no logi in this game for lazy ignorance.

Radio Host, Blogger, Lowsec Resident, PvP Afficionado.

funkybacon.com - Blog

FunkyBacon on Twitter

Hasril Pux
Red Cabal
#8 - 2014-06-04 03:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasril Pux
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
The tutorials do a fair job of explaining that you're not safe, and the advanced military career agent goes into stuff like ship loss and various aspects of PVP play. You already can't read any overview about Eve without mention of suicide ganking or "griefing". Just how much hand holding do you want here Gevlon? I have zero sympathy for people mewling over losing stuff. Live and learn.

Or you could channel some of your goon rage into educating the masses about these easily preventable situations in highsec. Unfortunately, we both know it wouldn't make a lick of difference, and neither would plastering it on the gate billboards of every system or blasting it all over the TV in the CQ. There is no logi in this game for lazy ignorance.


No. But this blog post by Feyd rings sharply of truth. Clear unavoidable terms before they take a single step would go a long way towards informing new players of the true nature of this game. And it might even harden their resolve right from the beginning.

If you like any of the older ship models (original artwork) better than the redesign of your favorite hull and don't want them to be lost forever, support ship customization and this feature request.

Amenity Project
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-06-04 03:39:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Amenity Project
Hasril Pux wrote:
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
The tutorials do a fair job of explaining that you're not safe, and the advanced military career agent goes into stuff like ship loss and various aspects of PVP play. You already can't read any overview about Eve without mention of suicide ganking or "griefing". Just how much hand holding do you want here Gevlon? I have zero sympathy for people mewling over losing stuff. Live and learn.

Or you could channel some of your goon rage into educating the masses about these easily preventable situations in highsec. Unfortunately, we both know it wouldn't make a lick of difference, and neither would plastering it on the gate billboards of every system or blasting it all over the TV in the CQ. There is no logi in this game for lazy ignorance.


No. But this blog post by Feyd rings sharply of truth. Clear unavoidable terms before they take a single step would go a long way towards informing new players of the true nature of this game. And it might even harden their resolve right from the beginning.

CCP and us need these kids. They buy PLEX and bring us content.

Besides, there's no amount of education that prevents this from happening.


There's no reason to make these people not waste tons of money on PLEX. If they were reasonable,
they wouldn't have thrown it away invested it in the first place. They would have informed themselves.

As they obviously aren't and haven't, no amount of education will change anything.


Gevlon Goblin on his clueless quest.
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#10 - 2014-06-04 04:38:25 UTC
Walter Hart White wrote:
T1 industrials are unavailable for trial users, would not work.

So the tutorials could only be completed after he subscribed. That would be terrible.

DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
The tutorials do a fair job of explaining that you're not safe, and the advanced military career agent goes into stuff like ship loss and various aspects of PVP play. You already can't read any overview about Eve without mention of suicide ganking or "griefing".

No, the tutorials give you a free, unfit frig to lose on purpose. It's a bit different from losing a ship you didn't mean to lose. Also, most players don't read forums or participate in the community (hint: CSM election numbers), so the millions post won't help them at all. Also, we are talking about new players. Do you seriously expect them to read EVE sites before getting into the game?

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-06-04 04:53:01 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Walter Hart White wrote:
T1 industrials are unavailable for trial users, would not work.

So the tutorials could only be completed after he subscribed. That would be terrible.

DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
The tutorials do a fair job of explaining that you're not safe, and the advanced military career agent goes into stuff like ship loss and various aspects of PVP play. You already can't read any overview about Eve without mention of suicide ganking or "griefing".

No, the tutorials give you a free, unfit frig to lose on purpose. It's a bit different from losing a ship you didn't mean to lose. Also, most players don't read forums or participate in the community (hint: CSM election numbers), so the millions post won't help them at all. Also, we are talking about new players. Do you seriously expect them to read EVE sites before getting into the game?



I did, but I accept that I'm the minority. Overall though I am pretty much in agreement with Funky in that I don't believe we need a whole elaborate mission setup to get the point across...or worse, confuse the point. Last thing we need is newbies falsely believing that NPC "suicide gankers" are out to get them (even if their name is "capsuleer suicide ganker"). I would be fine with a popup explaining the nature of EvE however (as mentioned in the above linked blog post). Something to click through when making a new character.
DJ FunkyBacon
Rabid Ninja Space Monkey Inc.
Monkeys with Guns.
#12 - 2014-06-04 04:57:20 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Do you seriously expect them to read EVE sites before getting into the game?


Actually, I do. I know I read up on a game, and ask people about it before I spend money on it. That's just common sense... which I realize is in short supply with some people.

Radio Host, Blogger, Lowsec Resident, PvP Afficionado.

funkybacon.com - Blog

FunkyBacon on Twitter

Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#13 - 2014-06-04 05:45:35 UTC
If the real nature of Eve was relayed to John Q. Neverplayedorheardofitbefore, There would never be any new players, ever.

If I had not had it explained to me in no uncertain terms by a friend on TS before I ever played, and blindly went about what I thought I was supposed to do based on the tutorials, (mine, explore, mission) , I would have lasted a month max beyond the trial.

And never came back. Since I had this knowledge relayed to me ahead of time, and vast amounts of info about how to survive and prosper, now I have 4 active accounts.


The Op's idea for a complex mission/tutorial is a good idea, thumbs up there.

But if there was truth in advertising, Eve's brochure would read

"The game where everyone, and everything, is trying to kill you, scam you, steal your stuff, loot your wreck, and then sell you new ships so they can blow you up again. And all of this is not only condoned by the game developer, but actively encouraged. So Harden The F*** Up"






Hasril Pux
Red Cabal
#14 - 2014-06-04 19:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasril Pux
Amenity Project wrote:

CCP and us need these kids. They buy PLEX and bring us content.

They also rant on the forums and cause high-sec nerfs that ultimately take content away from us. The very brief amount of time that an uninformed rage-quitter spends in the game doesn't add much in the way of content at all compared to what their negative metrics and feedback end up taking away.

Amenity Project wrote:
Besides, there's no amount of education that prevents this from happening.

I'm not talking about education. I'm not agreeing with the OP about his mission ideas. But frankly, it's not like he's suggesting nerfs to make players safer. In a way he's asking for EvE's introduction to be more honest and up front about the gameplay.

Amenity Project wrote:
There's no reason to make these people not waste tons of money on PLEX. If they were reasonable,
they wouldn't have thrown it away invested it in the first place. They would have informed themselves.

As they obviously aren't and haven't, no amount of education will change anything.


Gevlon Goblin on his clueless quest.


DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Do you seriously expect them to read EVE sites before getting into the game?


Actually, I do. I know I read up on a game, and ask people about it before I spend money on it. That's just common sense... which I realize is in short supply with some people.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of Ripard Teg (may he burn in hell rest in peace) or his ilk. But on the opposite side of that coin, it seems rather extremist to scoff at ideas that promote a better informed player base. Or to suggest players who decide to jump right in lack common sense. To say that people ought to know where to look to inform themselves before they ever play the game is rather elitist. It goes a long way toward furthering the divide between people in the know and people who get overwhelmed and shut out. Not everyone approaches this the same way.

If you like any of the older ship models (original artwork) better than the redesign of your favorite hull and don't want them to be lost forever, support ship customization and this feature request.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2014-06-04 19:57:05 UTC
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Do you seriously expect them to read EVE sites before getting into the game?


Actually, I do. I know I read up on a game, and ask people about it before I spend money on it. That's just common sense... which I realize is in short supply with some people.


Funny how the guy scoffed at the idea of being an informed consumer lol. Like the idea of being knowledgeable and responsible was so foreign as to be down right alien.

I'd heard of EVE but didn't try it to 2007 after talking to friends who played and reading everything I could Google about it. That's how I new the game was for me.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#16 - 2014-06-04 20:34:39 UTC
I had a friend who 'explained' the game for me - he explained nothing, and when I joined I kept asking him questions (my own private help channel) - he never mentioned suicide ganking until I lost a thrasher to a ferox (SG) - a character creation warning like the one linked in the blog above would have gone a long way.

Also @DJ funky bacon - if a game has a 'free trial' I would imagine it's reasonable that some people will use the trial to see what it's like for themselves rather than spending 20hrs or so reading up on it. however there is no way you will experience enough in that trial - especially since you can't fly gank target ships

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-06-05 04:00:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Funny how the guy scoffed at the idea of being an informed consumer lol. Like the idea of being knowledgeable and responsible was so foreign as to be down right alien.

I'd heard of EVE but didn't try it to 2007 after talking to friends who played and reading everything I could Google about it. That's how I new the game was for me.

I applaud your intelligence and preparation. However if being intelligent and prepared is a pre-requisite of playing EVE... I hope CCP can live on 5-10K customers.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Vincintius Agrippa
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#18 - 2014-06-05 04:26:13 UTC
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
The tutorials do a fair job of explaining that you're not safe, and the advanced military career agent goes into stuff like ship loss and various aspects of PVP play. You already can't read any overview about Eve without mention of suicide ganking or "griefing". Just how much hand holding do you want here Gevlon? I have zero sympathy for people mewling over losing stuff. Live and learn.

Or you could channel some of your goon rage into educating the masses about these easily preventable situations in highsec. Unfortunately, we both know it wouldn't make a lick of difference, and neither would plastering it on the gate billboards of every system or blasting it all over the TV in the CQ. There is no logi in this game for lazy ignorance.



Unfortunately, most people stop paying attention to the tutorials after the first week or so. A year on and I have still yet to complete any path.
Only YOU can prevent internet bullying!
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#19 - 2014-06-05 08:46:46 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Chicken Exroofer wrote:
If the real nature of Eve was relayed to John Q. Neverplayedorheardofitbefore, There would never be any new players, ever.

If I had not had it explained to me in no uncertain terms by a friend on TS before I ever played, and blindly went about what I thought I was supposed to do based on the tutorials, (mine, explore, mission) , I would have lasted a month max beyond the trial.

And never came back. Since I had this knowledge relayed to me ahead of time, and vast amounts of info about how to survive and prosper, now I have 4 active accounts.


The Op's idea for a complex mission/tutorial is a good idea, thumbs up there.

But if there was truth in advertising, Eve's brochure would read
"The game where everyone, and everything, is trying to kill you, scam you, steal your stuff, loot your wreck, and then sell you new ships so they can blow you up again. And all of this is not only condoned by the game developer, but actively encouraged. So Harden The F*** Up"




Possibly, "there's your problem!" Lol
If there is a mechanic in EvE that would actively discourage new players or cause them to quit when they discover it, does it not make more sense to clearly identify what that problem is, find a balanced solution and implement it, rather than making a mission to train people about the problem?

Of course there are those who do not believe that new players for EvE are required, unless they are the "right stuff" but that is another problem altogether.Roll






And not all current players are happy with the current "balance", we have no intention of rage quitting, are aware of the issues, and avoid and work around them as much as possible, Much in the way that ones avoids dogshit when walking down a pavement where no one cleans up and no one stops the dogs crapping everywhere.
It does not mean we like dogshit, we just accept than no one is cleaning up, and they do so much **** that it is too much to deal with, in much the same way we need bylaws in real life, without them, well, we see what happens.

Some however will disagree with that summation.

But that does not change the fact that most dislike the situation, but are just dealing with it. perfectly safe HS? No thanks. That is not a good idea. But remembering it is a game, It should have fun as a priority.

But does it matter that so many players leave? Or that many do not even try? Is it only a game for tough elites?
I wonder if CCP are even asking those questions at all?
Possibly they should.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Beta Maoye
#20 - 2014-06-05 08:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Beta Maoye
w3ak3stl1nk wrote:
There are a lot of things that could be introduced in tutorials. Besides this the new player training sessions need to be converted to tutorials.
+1 anyways


New players training sessions provide some very good and essential information of the game. However, factors such as time zone, work schedule, family time, can influence whether player can join the live traning sessions. CCP should produce videos of new player training sessions, particularly about PVP. Players can be directed to these videos at the end of turtorial missions.

Although the game enviornment is constantly changing, some basic procedures of PVP never change. To survive from PVP activities, new players has to think like a PVPer. Training sessions should teach them things like, where is a good place to set up gate camp, how to do gate camp, how to de-cloak a ship, how to use scout ship to find target, how to make a safe spot, how to use d-scan to locate target, how to assess target - shield/armor/hull/speed/engagement range/weapon/ammo, when to use ECM, dampener, disruptor, how to fit my ship to gain possible advantages from the assessment of target, how to engage target.

A training session don't need to be too long. 15 minutes per video session is good. Educate new players some general procedures of PVP, they will be able to assess the risk involved themselves. They might even be able to start having fun in PVP. Less griefs and whines. More long term players in EVE. More fun in EVE universe. More revenue to CCP.
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