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[CSM] December Summit - The PLEX in Particular

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Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2011-11-25 19:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Those who believe that binding is bad idea only because it would prevent using 1 "jita"-alt to obtain game time for several accounts, could be rounded by setting for example 24h timer to plex before it binds to account after it has changed owner 1st time. During this period you could still contract or trade that plex forward, but you could not put it back to market.

That way you could still buy and contract your plex forward, but playing market games would be done deal.

I don't understand what is the reason to be so negative about this. You guys commit to game time when you buy for example 3 month subscription. Why should it be different in the game? Only the currency is different brand.

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Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2011-11-25 19:56:21 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Yeep wrote:
stuff

Perhaps you should learn to understand what you're reading, before trying to throw any answers.


No, its pretty clear you think PLEX are too expensive and the evil, soulless market players are to blame.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2011-11-25 20:14:32 UTC
Is it?

How interesting. Care to share the facts behind this assumption?

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Goose99
#64 - 2011-11-25 21:46:26 UTC
Yeep wrote:

No, its pretty clear you think PLEX are too expensive and the evil, soulless market players are to blame.


See below:

Goose99 wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Well if you're going to imply that the supply of PLEX is inelastic with price, you should maybe reconsider whether you're the one who gets to ask other people not to be idiots.

So the real question is: what is the equilibrium price at which the most PLEX are created. I'll assume that this is the "right" price, as it allows the most number of people to play for free, and makes CCP the most money, and it's ipso facto the best price for the people who pay the money to create them as well (in terms of how much money they're willing to pay)

If the ISK price is low, then people have to buy more PLEX to buy a specific item, but they're less likely to do so.

If the ISK price is high, then people have to buy fewer PLEX to afford their Aeon or whatever, but they're more likely to do so.

I know that I personally was watching the PLEX price rise with interest, and I in fact made a decision that if they hit 600M, I would work a day of overtime and make some PLEX to sell for enough ISK that I wouldn't have to PvE for a year or so. I had no specific purchase in mind.

Unless CCP tell us how many PLEX are being created, then any attempt to say that the PLEX price is "too high" (or "too low") is, at the end of the day, just based on personal perspective and undiluted guessing. (This might be an interesting question for the CSM to put to CCP.)


So you write the same thing as i wrote. Thats something.
It is all up to CCP , so I dont even understand why there is such a topic as this , as it has no real reason, other than some ppl wants lower plex prices somehow.


Everyone of you seem to be unable to distinguish the difference between "high" and "unstable." High is when plex price climb sturdily, as it did for years. Unstable is when plex rose by 100 mil in a week, then fell by 50 mil in 3 days, which is what happened recently. The spikes prompt people to leave, the dips put a dampener on plex purchases. Wild fluctuations is never a good thing for the economy. What makes it unacceptable for plex is that wild fluctuations in subscription prices translates directly to fluctuations in subscription base.


The fact that it dropped by 50 mil in 3 days actually does more damage than it rising 100 mil a week prior. It has everything to do with fluctuations, and nothing to do with actual price. Subscription price must remain stable, too "high" or "low" is a matter of opinion.
Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#65 - 2011-11-25 23:05:02 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
It is quite hilarious how the discussion always goes towards "can't afford the isk" - "prices rise" - "should consider subbing", even the actual reasoning has nothing to do with the current plex price level. It has somewhat to do with questioning is the current plex price level reflecting the true value of it or has it been manipulated by investors.

Personally I would not have any problem buying my game time with 1 billion isk/month. However I've made personal calculations and come to conclusion, that paying over 400m from plex is turning myself to tool, so I rather pay with credit card and have no problem with that either.

However I still feel that plex is not actual in game item what should be used for market games. It is nothing like "scourge missile" or "primae" as someone referred earlier, because you can not control the supply in game.

Plex should bound to account when it changes ownership from account x to account y. It is a service - game time - thing what appears from thin air. You should not be able to make trade profit by investing to thin air. When you buy game time, you should commit to use it in some point. It is that simple.


This is a game and that means all of it is 100% thin air, all of it.

EVE existed before PLEX. PLEX is a EULA friendly form of RMT. No one is being forced to buy or sell them.

CCP gets their pound of flesh from their players as every month is still paid for with real money, they just get a lot more prepaid time is all.

In game supply is easily controlled. Don't buy them in game or out.

People could be paying a lot less for concerts and sporting events if they would just be patient and stop buying those things for a while and let the price come down.

Fact is, despite all the crying to rob the carebears to feed the nullbears, there is a TON of ISK floating around, just look at PLEX prices...Blink

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams
Goose99
#66 - 2011-11-26 00:03:16 UTC
Thredd Necro wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
It is quite hilarious how the discussion always goes towards "can't afford the isk" - "prices rise" - "should consider subbing", even the actual reasoning has nothing to do with the current plex price level. It has somewhat to do with questioning is the current plex price level reflecting the true value of it or has it been manipulated by investors.

Personally I would not have any problem buying my game time with 1 billion isk/month. However I've made personal calculations and come to conclusion, that paying over 400m from plex is turning myself to tool, so I rather pay with credit card and have no problem with that either.

However I still feel that plex is not actual in game item what should be used for market games. It is nothing like "scourge missile" or "primae" as someone referred earlier, because you can not control the supply in game.

Plex should bound to account when it changes ownership from account x to account y. It is a service - game time - thing what appears from thin air. You should not be able to make trade profit by investing to thin air. When you buy game time, you should commit to use it in some point. It is that simple.


This is a game and that means all of it is 100% thin air, all of it.

EVE existed before PLEX. PLEX is a EULA friendly form of RMT. No one is being forced to buy or sell them.

CCP gets their pound of flesh from their players as every month is still paid for with real money, they just get a lot more prepaid time is all.

In game supply is easily controlled. Don't buy them in game or out.

People could be paying a lot less for concerts and sporting events if they would just be patient and stop buying those things for a while and let the price come down.

Fact is, despite all the crying to rob the carebears to feed the nullbears, there is a TON of ISK floating around, just look at PLEX prices...Blink


When the plex market truly crash, the damage would've been done and it would've been too late to salvage.

Goose99 wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Well if you're going to imply that the supply of PLEX is inelastic with price, you should maybe reconsider whether you're the one who gets to ask other people not to be idiots.

So the real question is: what is the equilibrium price at which the most PLEX are created. I'll assume that this is the "right" price, as it allows the most number of people to play for free, and makes CCP the most money, and it's ipso facto the best price for the people who pay the money to create them as well (in terms of how much money they're willing to pay)

If the ISK price is low, then people have to buy more PLEX to buy a specific item, but they're less likely to do so.

If the ISK price is high, then people have to buy fewer PLEX to afford their Aeon or whatever, but they're more likely to do so.

I know that I personally was watching the PLEX price rise with interest, and I in fact made a decision that if they hit 600M, I would work a day of overtime and make some PLEX to sell for enough ISK that I wouldn't have to PvE for a year or so. I had no specific purchase in mind.

Unless CCP tell us how many PLEX are being created, then any attempt to say that the PLEX price is "too high" (or "too low") is, at the end of the day, just based on personal perspective and undiluted guessing. (This might be an interesting question for the CSM to put to CCP.)


So you write the same thing as i wrote. Thats something.
It is all up to CCP , so I dont even understand why there is such a topic as this , as it has no real reason, other than some ppl wants lower plex prices somehow.


Everyone of you seem to be unable to distinguish the difference between "high" and "unstable." High is when plex price climb sturdily, as it did for years. Unstable is when plex rose by 100 mil in a week, then fell by 50 mil in 3 days, which is what happened recently. The spikes prompt people to leave, the dips put a dampener on plex purchases. Wild fluctuations is never a good thing for the economy. What makes it unacceptable for plex is that wild fluctuations in subscription prices translates directly to fluctuations in subscription base.


The fact that it dropped by 50 mil in 3 days actually does more damage than it rising 100 mil a week prior. It has everything to do with fluctuations, and nothing to do with actual price. Subscription price must remain stable, too "high" or "low" is a matter of opinion.[/quote]
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2011-11-26 08:46:21 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Subscription price must remain stable


Why?

If you're going to "Soulbind" PLEX you might as well remove them. Before we had PLEX people still traded in GTC for isk, its just there was little to no oversight, no logs to check for scams, no easy way to check which codes are lost forever and which are being held. The situation was objectively worse. Its naive to think that if you remove the ability to trade PLEX openly people won't just go back to the grey market.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#68 - 2011-11-26 14:00:46 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
The fact that it dropped by 50 mil in 3 days actually does more damage than it rising 100 mil a week prior.


More damage to whom, or to what?

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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-11-26 20:03:19 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Subscription price must remain stable


The price of a subscription hasn't changed in almost 9 years.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Thredd Necro
Doomheim
#70 - 2011-11-26 21:14:16 UTC
The damage hasn't been done and won't be done. Real life subscription and PLEX prices are stable with subscription prices remaining pretty much unchanged for years. Again, no one is required to participate in the PLEX program.

It's an in-game commodity in an economy forever bloated by automagically renewing resources and barely balanced by ship use. There is PLENTY of money to go around despite the cries of CCPs seeming favorite player segment whining against all common sense and reality that that income, AKA "bloat", should be re-balanced to benefit the people who go out of their way to spend money rather than invest it and make a profit, despite CCP setting up the game to not only allow for it but to promote it.

PLEX causes a LOT more money to be dumped into an already bloated economy. If it wasn't bloated, prices would be going down not up as PLEX are not exactly rare. The fact is lots of people have discretionary income to dump into PLEX and they are doing so.

PLEX prices will reflect perceived market value but they won't hurt subscriptions because of pricing. Subscription prices aren't changing, the in-game cost of "free" game time is. If Real Life PLEX purchases don't outstrip the income, the price won't come down much.

I don't see what all the fuss is about.

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which. - Douglas Adams
Goose99
#71 - 2011-11-27 00:02:32 UTC
Bubble don't reflect market value, before or after it burst.
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#72 - 2011-11-27 23:58:52 UTC
There is nothing wrong with the current system of PLEX. There is no need to do a bind to account thing, that would screw up the gamestyle of thousands of people and inconvenience everyone. The primary concern with PLEX currently is the rapid increase in price due to manipulation and hoarding by select few players. Eve is a sandbox, first and foremost. The rules were set in place to allow exactly this sort of thing, and thus we must allow it, or give ample prewarning on any changes.

The high PLEX prices will begin driving players away from the game as they can no longer subscribe. The best way to drive the prices lower is to increase the overall quality of the game and restore the feeling that Eve has a long term potential for another decade. People need to feel Eve is worth investing in to be worth spending RL money on PLEX. Crucible is a good start, we're seeing a lot of good changes that are sending Eve back in a good direction. The bulk PLEX sell offers from CCP are another good way to push prices down.

For now everything is on the right track to correcting itself. We just need to be patient.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#73 - 2011-11-28 08:07:03 UTC
The main thing wrong with PLEX is that a lot of people have come to believe that they're entitled to play for free, and at an ISK cost of their choosing. And this at a time of increasing RL economic difficulties reducing the number of people willing to spend RL money and increasing those who want to cut their RL costs.

The "time price" of playing for free is still extremely low if you're unemployed/student - 5 hours a month (That's just 75 minutes a week) will do it. I've been unemployed. 75 minutes is nothing when you have 16 or 18 hours a day to kill, and some free entertainment to secure.

Over the next 2-3 years, that "time price" is only likely to increase.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#74 - 2011-11-28 22:53:15 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Everyone of you seem to be unable to distinguish the difference between "high" and "unstable." High is when plex price climb sturdily, as it did for years. Unstable is when plex rose by 100 mil in a week, then fell by 50 mil in 3 days, which is what happened recently. The spikes prompt people to leave, the dips put a dampener on plex purchases. Wild fluctuations is never a good thing for the economy. What makes it unacceptable for plex is that wild fluctuations in subscription prices translates directly to fluctuations in subscription base.


When PLEX go up, people are more likely to buy them from CCP and put them on the market. It's good for CCP to have those spikes in price. What's more, anyone who would quit over PLEX prices probably isn't a serious player who will be around for long anyway. If you can't deal with a 100 million isk per month difference in your wallet, you shouldn't be plexing yet.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Goose99
#75 - 2011-11-29 21:30:12 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Everyone of you seem to be unable to distinguish the difference between "high" and "unstable." High is when plex price climb sturdily, as it did for years. Unstable is when plex rose by 100 mil in a week, then fell by 50 mil in 3 days, which is what happened recently. The spikes prompt people to leave, the dips put a dampener on plex purchases. Wild fluctuations is never a good thing for the economy. What makes it unacceptable for plex is that wild fluctuations in subscription prices translates directly to fluctuations in subscription base.


If you can't deal with a 100 million isk per month difference in your wallet, you shouldn't be plexing yet.


^Exactly what I was talking about. What is 100-50? And no, it's far worse than just 100, or just 50.Roll
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2011-11-30 00:01:05 UTC
PLEX PROBLEM = PRICE


PLEX is the safeguard to RMT, but RMT is nothing more than botting

If CCP Focuses on removing botting, than those few leftover RMT'ers will have no impact on CCP balance score

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#77 - 2011-12-04 11:04:19 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Should plex "bound to account" on ISK purchase from in game market?

In other words you could sell plex through in game market only once and the receiving account would be forced to turn it to either aurum or game time.

This would prevent any kind of market manipulation with the item and remove quite a load of worries about unused PLEXes from CCP.




Yeah this or introduce a max cap of total plex in an account (say 10 per account).


PLEX shouldn't be subject to massive market manipulation.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#78 - 2011-12-04 11:28:53 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
PLEX PROBLEM = PRICE


PLEX is the safeguard to RMT, but RMT is nothing more than botting

If CCP Focuses on removing botting, than those few leftover RMT'ers will have no impact on CCP balance score


Botting is a seperate issue from RMT. Although many bots are run for RMT purposes, many aren't.

Supercapital construction and character sales are the two most obvious examples; neither are botted, both are well represented in the RMT market. Also high end deadspace mods from plexes are for sale.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Aineko Macx
#79 - 2011-12-04 11:31:28 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
No, the goal of PLEX is to allow the player-driven market to determine an ISK price for the real-world value embodied in this virtual commodity. That real-world value is approx. €17, not 30 days of game time.


Quote:
A lot of people have been using PLEX to pay for their accounts, and seem to have developed a sense of entitlement. They expect PLEX to remain at a price that is suitable for them, rather than the seller.

Those are the crucial points, couldn't have said it better.

iveeCore 3.0: The PHP engine for industrial activities and CREST library
Ecks Ghe
Cerulean Privateers
#80 - 2011-12-05 01:00:35 UTC
Plex is fine. Let the socialists rule Earth, not Eve. Nobody is forcing you to play the game for free. Step up and pay for the game if you can´t afford the isk to purchase a PLEX.