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At last! A fair, balanced debate on Climate Change!

Author
Graygor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-06-02 15:31:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Graygor
digitalwanderer wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:


Action is being taken, sort of, the EU has pretty stringent regulations when it comes to emissions. Why they'd close down a nuclear plant tho is beyond me, but fact of the matter is that the majority of people with access to technology have a small carbon footprint. It's just that there's a lot of them. For example, China gives out more emissions that the US of A by a good margin, since it has about 4x the pop, even tho the average amount per capita is sporting a 3:1 ratio in favour of the USA.



But now imagine if china does reach the same level of living that's in the USA and end up having the same carbon footprint per capita, and with all that population?...Yikes.


Their the only economy that is still growing by leaps and bounds( between 8 and 10% per year), and already surpass the USA in GDP....New lion in coming into town and even the USA speaks gently about them as they have nukes and they control about 1.5 trillion of the USA debt in government bonds, so tough talk won't work.


I'm sorry but as a financial analyst i find this data about china totally hilarious. They're lucky to get 7-7.5% today (and a lot of private financial houses question the official figures with a HUGE pinch of salt since independent figures are nigh on impossible to get) and are cooling faster and faster with a very bad housing bubble yet to burst. Not to mention their capital outflow issues. Which is music to my ears. Big smile

On top of that you already have a growing momentum of companies to find cheaper / greener pastures outside of China. Plus the incalculable damage they are doing with their neighbours. Lots of funds are divesting their interests / assets. Capital is still pouring in. But i still dont like the way its going.

Hold your horses on China. Like all us sensible financial people are doing. People are too keen to say the USA is through, the same was hollered in the 80s / 90s about Japan.

Ed. - a few more issues.

"I think you should buy a new Mayan calendar. Mine has muscle cars on it." - Kenneth O'Hara

"I dont think that can happen, you can see Gray has his invuln field on in his portrait." - Commissar "Cake" Kate

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#62 - 2014-06-02 15:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: digitalwanderer
Graygor wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:


Action is being taken, sort of, the EU has pretty stringent regulations when it comes to emissions. Why they'd close down a nuclear plant tho is beyond me, but fact of the matter is that the majority of people with access to technology have a small carbon footprint. It's just that there's a lot of them. For example, China gives out more emissions that the US of A by a good margin, since it has about 4x the pop, even tho the average amount per capita is sporting a 3:1 ratio in favour of the USA.



But now imagine if china does reach the same level of living that's in the USA and end up having the same carbon footprint per capita, and with all that population?...Yikes.


Their the only economy that is still growing by leaps and bounds( between 8 and 10% per year), and already surpass the USA in GDP....New lion in coming into town and even the USA speaks gently about them as they have nukes and they control about 1.5 trillion of the USA debt in government bonds, so tough talk won't work.


I'm sorry but as a financial analyst i find this data about china totally hilarious. They're lucky to get 7-7.5% today (and a lot of private financial houses question the official figures with a HUGE pinch of salt since independent figures are nigh on impossible to get) and are cooling faster and faster with a very bad housing bubble yet to burst. Not to mention their capital outflow issues. Which is music to my ears. Big smile

Hold your horses on China. Like all us sensible financial people are doing.



Well imagine if it's really bad and they cash in their USA Bonds, what happens to the USA's finances?....bankrupt?
Graygor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-06-02 15:43:27 UTC
They wont do that as it would wreck so many systems already in place and spell disquiet in China. And the PRC is loathe to have tensions amongst the people. China wants to rise, but theyre still primarily a manufacturing hub. Until they get their white collar tech up and running and start innovating and manufacturing their own products they cant risk it. And thats not going to happen for a long while it seems. China isnt very good at selling itself the same way the Japanese were.

Thats a very short summary. But in a nutshell if they were to try it, it would backfire horribly upon them as funds divest themselves and they watch their economy crumble and face possible rebellion. Its in everyones interest to play nice.

China has the USA by the balls, the USA has China by the throat as it were.

Yay Neoliberal economics!

"I think you should buy a new Mayan calendar. Mine has muscle cars on it." - Kenneth O'Hara

"I dont think that can happen, you can see Gray has his invuln field on in his portrait." - Commissar "Cake" Kate

Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
#64 - 2014-06-02 15:54:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Myfanwy Heimdal
jason hill wrote:
[

absaloute tosh ! worst statement ever ! .... in the middle ages here in the
UK we used to grow grapes ...yes here in the UK we had vinyards ... also in the 18th century our elders used to ice skate on the river thames ........WHICH WAS WELL BEFORE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION !!!!


facts young padwan !! get your facts RIGHT ! before jumping on the bandwagon !

im not suggesting we arnt assisting ...but FFS ! cows fart more c02 than we produce ...shall we kill all of them aswell ....

"duh!" headbutt to the fkn face for uninformed stupid post !



Oh, brilliant. My whole post vanished.

Pam:  I wonder what my name means in Welsh?Nessa: Why?

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#65 - 2014-06-02 15:55:18 UTC
Since one of china's arguments (and a valid one for once) is that the USA enjoyed economic growth for the past 60+ years and didn't care about pollution at all or global warming, and now the USA is dictating what china should be doing on the pollution matter( which it is very polluted), but there's all these economic tensions between both if the fight gets really nasty, is why nothing will change for the 2 countries that contribute the most to pollution.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-06-02 16:21:39 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
The main driver of this climate change BS is the carbon tax scam.
There you go, a piggybank from nothing. Big smile It's a classic.

as an environmentally conscious petrolhead, I do believe that anything that can make my wheeled passions greener is good.


Carbon tax however, does not and it's horrible. Here in Europe, the shift towards diesel-powered vehicles is quite lol-worthy as they require more costly maintenance, and they actually pollute a bit more if not properly maintained. Yes, in terms of power and useability, diesel engines are nice. Thanks to them we actually got a nice technology boost on turbocharger development and direct-injection technologies, which later applied to petrol engines, and made them much greener and performing.

Honestly, and in the case of my country, as I usually say: petrol engine cars' only expensive running cost is the fuel, while diesel engine cars' only cheap running cost is the fuel.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2014-06-02 16:57:21 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Sturmwolke wrote:
The main driver of this climate change BS is the carbon tax scam.
There you go, a piggybank from nothing. Big smile It's a classic.

as an environmentally conscious petrolhead, I do believe that anything that can make my wheeled passions greener is good.


Carbon tax however, does not and it's horrible. Here in Europe, the shift towards diesel-powered vehicles is quite lol-worthy as they require more costly maintenance, and they actually pollute a bit more if not properly maintained. Yes, in terms of power and useability, diesel engines are nice. Thanks to them we actually got a nice technology boost on turbocharger development and direct-injection technologies, which later applied to petrol engines, and made them much greener and performing.

Honestly, and in the case of my country, as I usually say: petrol engine cars' only expensive running cost is the fuel, while diesel engine cars' only cheap running cost is the fuel.


As a diesel owner I have to say I haven't had any engine issues but I do own a new (2010) car. £20 road taxCool

I do find it odd as a Brit that Americans aren't demanding the same kind of mpg quality that we get. Mitsubishi are advertising a new SUV hybrid over here and claim it gets 148 MPG, its a lie, but it will be getting over 70-80 mpg which for a big car like this is very good.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2014-06-02 17:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
baltec1 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Sturmwolke wrote:
The main driver of this climate change BS is the carbon tax scam.
There you go, a piggybank from nothing. Big smile It's a classic.

as an environmentally conscious petrolhead, I do believe that anything that can make my wheeled passions greener is good.


Carbon tax however, does not and it's horrible. Here in Europe, the shift towards diesel-powered vehicles is quite lol-worthy as they require more costly maintenance, and they actually pollute a bit more if not properly maintained. Yes, in terms of power and useability, diesel engines are nice. Thanks to them we actually got a nice technology boost on turbocharger development and direct-injection technologies, which later applied to petrol engines, and made them much greener and performing.

Honestly, and in the case of my country, as I usually say: petrol engine cars' only expensive running cost is the fuel, while diesel engine cars' only cheap running cost is the fuel.


As a diesel owner I have to say I haven't had any engine issues but I do own a new (2010) car. £20 road taxCool

I do find it odd as a Brit that Americans aren't demanding the same kind of mpg quality that we get. Mitsubishi are advertising a new SUV hybrid over here and claim it gets 148 MPG, its a lie, but it will be getting over 70-80 mpg which for a big car like this is very good.

nah, diesel issues, at least here, usually stem from the fact that nobody actually knows how to use a (turbocharged) diesel car, coupled with higher maintenance costs compared to petrol cars, and general mishandling.

There are very nice diesel engines out there. I always had a soft spot for Volvo's reliable D5 engines, and the Toyota's 1.4 D4-D is a perky, little tank of an engine.


Also, hybrids actually only work well in city, where you can get the most out of the electrical engine. Longer trips, doesn't matter if it's diesel or petrol, altho I prefer an LPG-converted petrol engine for that.
Only hybrid that sorta made some impression with me was the Ampera, but that one's kinda unique. As a friend of mine said "Hybrids were made so that divorced soccer moms could go pick up their kids."

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Graygor
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2014-06-02 17:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Graygor
I've heard the Mazda Atenza diesel gets very good MPG. But i hardly ever drive in Tokyo, so much easier to take the train.

"I think you should buy a new Mayan calendar. Mine has muscle cars on it." - Kenneth O'Hara

"I dont think that can happen, you can see Gray has his invuln field on in his portrait." - Commissar "Cake" Kate

Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
#70 - 2014-06-02 17:27:53 UTC
jason hill wrote:

absaloute tosh ! worst statement ever ! .... in the middle ages here in the
UK we used to grow grapes ...yes here in the UK we had vinyards ... also in the 18th century our elders used to ice skate on the river thames ........WHICH WAS WELL BEFORE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION !!!!


First of all we still have vineyards here in the UK. Just up the road at Pant Ddu there's a vineyard and this shows that if they can grow in North Wales then they can pretty much grow anywhere.

Your second point. Yes. They did have ice fairs on the Thames. However, this was due to two things. Firstly the Gulf Stream has a wobble now and then and we get cold winters. Or rather, we get winters that we should do due to our high latitude. We've got friends in Alberta and they are always mentioning their 'Arctic weather' despite that they live nowhere near to the Arctic as any half decent atlas will show. In fact, they live just thirty miles further North than we do here on Pen Llŷn. So, really, if it weren't for the Gulf Stream we'd be having colder winters.

The winters at the end of the 1950s and early 60s were bad and there was a movement in the Gulf Stream then. It is believed that similar events happened when the Thames froze.

Now, the second reason that the Thames froze then was that the river was wider then. It isn't boxed in as it is now between walls on either side. On the notherrn side they used to build ships on the mud flats which is why the famous street, The Strand, got its name. The Strand, as you may be aware is a fair distance away from the river today. Now, given that the same volume of water flows in and out but now its in a narrower channel it's less likely to freeze and it now seems incredulous to suggest that the river could have frozen once but if the Gulf Stream slows, moves or stops and the river is back to its orginal width then freezing is not unlikely at all.

Pam:  I wonder what my name means in Welsh?Nessa: Why?

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#71 - 2014-06-02 17:46:44 UTC
Graygor wrote:
I've heard the Mazda Atenza diesel gets very good MPG. But i hardly ever drive in Tokyo, so much easier to take the train.


Well my little 1.4 diesel Citroen C3 went from Innsbruck to the outskirts of Amsterdam on one tank and I was doing 75-90mph for most the trip. (47 liter tank) Granted I didn't aim for doing the trip on one tank, I didn't realize I needed fuel until I was down to 30 miles and the first two stations I stopped at didn't have any diesel left. Got filled up with 15 miles left in the tankOops
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#72 - 2014-06-02 18:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Grimpak wrote:

as an environmentally conscious petrolhead, I do believe that anything that can make my wheeled passions greener is good.


No petroleum, only hay and grass. You can't get greener than grass-green.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2014-06-02 19:20:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Grimpak wrote:

as an environmentally conscious petrolhead, I do believe that anything that can make my wheeled passions greener is good.


No petroleum, only hay and grass. You can't get greener than grass-green.

petrol smells a bit better than manure thoP


baltec1 wrote:
Well my little 1.4 diesel Citroen C3



I know the most recent C3 is better looking than the first gen, but... dude.... Ugh

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Matilda Cecilia Fock
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2014-06-02 19:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Matilda Cecilia Fock
digitalwanderer wrote:
Since one of china's arguments (and a valid one for once) is that the USA enjoyed economic growth for the past 60+ years and didn't care about pollution at all or global warming, and now the USA is dictating what china should be doing on the pollution matter( which it is very polluted), but there's all these economic tensions between both if the fight gets really nasty, is why nothing will change for the 2 countries that contribute the most to pollution.


The fact is that China's environmental issues are hitting them harder and faster than any other country in the world. And the country is so populated, and the issues are so massive and severe, that they just can't bury their head in the sand as the USA do. "Environmental issues" are quite more real when every year your capital spends months breathing your fertile soil.

The good news is that China is prone to swinging the pendulum and shift their collective mind very fast, and so if they decide that they must go full green, they will totally and completey whipe the floor with everything every other country has done before. But also if they determine it's time to go full nuts and don't give a f of environment, they will destroy the world as we know it.

Q: Should we be worried? A: Nope. (...) Worry a lot if Fozzie, Masterplan, Rise, Veritas, Bettik, Ytterbium, Scarpia, Arrow, or even Greyscale leaves. Worry a little if Punkturis, karkur, SoniClover, Affinity, Goliath, or Xhagen leaves.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#75 - 2014-06-02 20:00:10 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Grimpak wrote:

as an environmentally conscious petrolhead, I do believe that anything that can make my wheeled passions greener is good.


No petroleum, only hay and grass. You can't get greener than grass-green.

petrol smells a bit better than manure thoP


baltec1 wrote:
Well my little 1.4 diesel Citroen C3



I know the most recent C3 is better looking than the first gen, but... dude.... Ugh


Better quality too. Its actually a good car and a 1.6 not a 1.4.

I now have a problem though because any new car I get must have a panoramic windscreen.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-06-02 20:27:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Better quality too. Its actually a good car and a 1.6 not a 1.4.

I now have a problem though because any new car I get must have a panoramic windscreen.



Toyota? As I said above, their D4-D engines are good.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#77 - 2014-06-02 20:42:32 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Better quality too. Its actually a good car and a 1.6 not a 1.4.

I now have a problem though because any new car I get must have a panoramic windscreen.



Toyota? As I said above, their D4-D engines are good.


Still got a few years left in the C3 before I would want something new so I'll likely look into the next gen hybrids.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2014-06-02 23:36:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Better quality too. Its actually a good car and a 1.6 not a 1.4.

I now have a problem though because any new car I get must have a panoramic windscreen.



Toyota? As I said above, their D4-D engines are good.


Still got a few years left in the C3 before I would want something new so I'll likely look into the next gen hybrids.

not seeing many evolutions on the hybrids for the next few years, besides maybe lighter batteries.

all in all, and things considered, specially the price of such vehicles, you're either better off in a car with an engine with very small displacement, if it's for going around town, or something akin to a 1.6L with forced induction for longer travels, or going full electric.

This is all considering if you don't want engines with power, of course. At the moment I'm trying to get an older car with a relatively large engine but more geared to torque and not HP. Early 90's 2.2litre accord for example is a car that has nice figures for such a large displacement engine, and it's quite reliable and comfortable, even considering the age of it. The F22-series block is a heck of an engine.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

digitalwanderer
DW inc
#79 - 2014-06-03 00:31:54 UTC
Matilda Cecilia Fock wrote:
digitalwanderer wrote:
Since one of china's arguments (and a valid one for once) is that the USA enjoyed economic growth for the past 60+ years and didn't care about pollution at all or global warming, and now the USA is dictating what china should be doing on the pollution matter( which it is very polluted), but there's all these economic tensions between both if the fight gets really nasty, is why nothing will change for the 2 countries that contribute the most to pollution.


The fact is that China's environmental issues are hitting them harder and faster than any other country in the world. And the country is so populated, and the issues are so massive and severe, that they just can't bury their head in the sand as the USA do. "Environmental issues" are quite more real when every year your capital spends months breathing your fertile soil.

The good news is that China is prone to swinging the pendulum and shift their collective mind very fast, and so if they decide that they must go full green, they will totally and completey whipe the floor with everything every other country has done before. But also if they determine it's time to go full nuts and don't give a f of environment, they will destroy the world as we know it.



That's my main fear right there since:


1: China and japan hate each others guts ever since WW2 ended since japan invaded their country and killed a lot of people, and both countries are still disputing islands in the Chinese sea that are worthless, but what isn't worthless is that below those are fairly large oil deposits and both want their hands on it.

2: China is building up militarily in a big way, to the point where they want 5 carriers operational within the next 10 years, so they can enforce their way of thinking on the overall region.

3: China does not recognize the independence of Taiwan, and still state the island belongs to them, hence why Taiwan is armed to the teeth, and has US backing in japan with the base at Okinawa japan where there's 30 000 troops, and the US's 6th fleet stationed there( carrier, cruisers, destroyers, frigates and nuclear subs, etc..)

4: We have the situation with north and south Korea and trying to get stability between those 2, which technically, are still at war even today, and north Korea are allies with china.

5: China is a big trade partner of Russia to the point that even as of a couple of weeks ago, they signed new trade agreements despite the fact trade sanctions were being imposed by the USA and allies for the whole situation in Ukraine...How's that for a _I_ the USA and partners.

6: The Olympics showed the means china was willing to hide the pollution problem by having all the local higher pollution businesses shutting down for a month so that visitors taking pictures would see a nice clear blue sky....


7: we have all these personal attacks between both China and the USA, but I mentioned this in my last post, and that China is a free market economy but not a democracy at all, since there's no open elections where the public participates at all levels, protests aren't allowed either( Tien amen square in 1989) , no opposition party at all or political debates either, so it's still very much communist in that respect and does what it wants to do, and has a lot of financial control in the USA and that's the end of it.


8: the USA can ***** and moan all it wants, this isn't a country that bows down to the established super powers as they're not a country in development anymore and are getting to super power status quickly....They have nukes and nuclear power plants, they build rockets and have a space program and are the third country to put a man into orbit, and build a lot of their own military gear and more....List would be endless, but fun fact is that Mercedes and Ferrari's largest market is china...Big smile


So it's a powder keg just waiting for a detonator to set it off sooner or later as it continues it's build up politically, economically and militarily, and pollution isn't a high priority unless it's a public event to save face.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2014-06-03 00:44:50 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Better quality too. Its actually a good car and a 1.6 not a 1.4.

I now have a problem though because any new car I get must have a panoramic windscreen.



Toyota? As I said above, their D4-D engines are good.


Still got a few years left in the C3 before I would want something new so I'll likely look into the next gen hybrids.

not seeing many evolutions on the hybrids for the next few years, besides maybe lighter batteries.

all in all, and things considered, specially the price of such vehicles, you're either better off in a car with an engine with very small displacement, if it's for going around town, or something akin to a 1.6L with forced induction for longer travels, or going full electric.

This is all considering if you don't want engines with power, of course. At the moment I'm trying to get an older car with a relatively large engine but more geared to torque and not HP. Early 90's 2.2litre accord for example is a car that has nice figures for such a large displacement engine, and it's quite reliable and comfortable, even considering the age of it. The F22-series block is a heck of an engine.


I have worked at nissan and got to talk with some lads from their R&D and there are some very interesting things on the way. Expect self cleaning paint and "transparent metal" rather than glass. There is also work being done on carbon scrubbers and fuel cells.