These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#601 - 2011-12-04 22:44:54 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Except that you have to respond to what they're doing. The margins for error in kiting have gotten dramatically shaved down IMO.

-Liang


Which is pretty much how it used to be before the last Proj buff, although back then it was more of a knife-edge; good pilots used to do well with Minmatar but most couldn't handle it.

I still think TE's need knocking back to a 15% Falloff boost though rather than an outright DPS nerf to projectiles or ships, first of all to stop ships with falloff bonuses being a bit silly on the range side like the Vaga, Mach etc. Second is that as it'll also affect blasters reach it won't make too much difference to the size of kiting zones for the normal ships, just move the ships slighly closer together.


What you just said:
- Nerf projectiles
- Nerf blasters
- Boost lasers

******* brilliant. /facepalm

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goose99
#602 - 2011-12-04 22:49:37 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

Except that you have to respond to what they're doing. The margins for error in kiting have gotten dramatically shaved down IMO.

-Liang


Which is pretty much how it used to be before the last Proj buff, although back then it was more of a knife-edge, hence why really good pilots used to do well with Minmatar but most couldn't handle it.

I still think TE's need knocking back to a 15% Falloff boost though rather than an outright DPS nerf to projectiles or ships, first of all to stop ships with falloff bonuses being a bit silly like the Vaga, Mach etc. Second is that as it'll also affect blasters reach it won't make too much difference to the size of kiting zones for the normal ships, just move the ships slighly closer together.


Unless the Winmatar pilot screws up in a big way, your blasterboat is screwed and there's nothing you can do. With window as big as it is atm, it's hard to screw up.

Liang Nuren wrote:
Cephelange du'Krevviq wrote:
Been playing for about a year, with a little bit of PvP experience; the experienced players that got me into the game have said that the Minmatar's main strengths, and more specifically, projectile weapons, is the ability to change the damage type they do. While the hybrid weapons have had a nice buff, they are still limited to kinetic/thermal.

Is this or is this not as big a liability as I've been led to believe?


This is a harder question than it initially sounds like. IMO, its just not as big of a liability as it sounds like - and here's two reasons why I think so:
- There are a lot of people omnitanking - or at least putting some effort in to cover resist holes. In these situations, Kin/Thm is either going to be the best damage types to be dealing or will be second best. Either way, its a safe bet - and you don't have to look any further than the popularity of RF PP to know this. Take a look at your favorite ship fittings and I think you'll see what I'm talking about here.
- T2 ships kinda throw a monkey wrench into this. T2 Caldari/Gallente ships can be tough nuts to crack, but T2 Minmatar and Amarr are actually weak to you. This is one of the times when I'm going to say that being able to switch damage types is really nice - though it will probably even out over time.

-Liang


-You'd have to try really hard to actually leave a kin/therm hole.
-By t2 Caldari/Gallante, do you mean tier 2, thus the drake? T2 Caldari/Gallante consists of boosted kin/therm resists and gaping em/exp holes, as opposed to Minmatar/Amar omnitank. In any case, there's the diemost, and there are the slowboats that get whacked until it dies.
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#603 - 2011-12-04 23:01:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

What you just said:
- Nerf projectiles
- Nerf blasters
- Boost lasers

******* brilliant. /facepalm

-Liang


You really hate lasers don't you Liang? P

Nerfing TE's back down is hardly a nerf to blasters as the difference between 15% and 30% bonus to falloff is pretty small, almost nonexistant in terms of smalls and mediums. TBH, the speed and agilty changes just introduced should be the deciding factor in engagements where that difference would come into play.

Lasers don't really get boosted either and if anything, forcing blaster and ac boats to get closer to laser users should mean they come up trumps via getting under the guns and using their now superior tracking.
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#604 - 2011-12-04 23:11:06 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
Almost as fast = slower = getting kited until it dies. Until Gallante blasterboat is actually faster than Winmatar, by which I meant not just slightly faster, but rather able to catch up before it pops, nothing will change.


The great thing about kiting is that you have to respond to what the other person is doing. If you let them get too far away, they just warp off and you're no more effective than a cruise missile Raven at 250km. If you let them too close, you just lost the fight outright. The thing about it is that now you're trying to kite someone that's almost exactly the same speed as you are, with almost exactly the same agility.

Except that you have to respond to what they're doing. The margins for error in kiting have gotten dramatically shaved down IMO.

-Liang


No, i´m flying Minnies threading the needle and i can tell you the difference is still more than enough. Also Minnie ships very often have utility highs as well, very useful for close combat because nos/neut can be deadly here, while the race that is optimized for close combat is quite immune to it (well, their weaponry anyway). Usually my opponents are soon capless if they are letting me closing in with Minmatar.

Sure, the Gallente work better now, especially if you know how to max out their performance as well, but for the same amount of effort the Minnies not only work, they shine. Not to mention that the limit what they can achieve is considerably higher than anything that is possible with Gallente.

The return of investment (you put in effort and ability and get out performance) is simply orders of magnitudes bigger for minmatar than for gallente. It´s a direct consequence of the fact that the basic design of the Gallente isn´t optimized for close combat and sniping, but the Minmatar basic design is. Of course trying to go against the basic design will always end up with a gimped solution.
It might work somehow like this http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xwE0rBDpg1Y/SBhUpqJ4mDI/AAAAAAAAAqY/GvSZC1MDWjU/s320/overloaded-car.jpg,
but you will never get anywhere close to the results when using the right tool for the task like this http://www.daloexports.com/Photos/LoadedTruck%20copy.jpg.

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#605 - 2011-12-04 23:12:49 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
You really hate lasers don't you Liang? P

Nerfing TE's back down is hardly a nerf to blasters as the difference between 15% and 30% bonus to falloff is pretty small, almost nonexistant in terms of smalls and mediums. TBH, the speed and agilty changes just introduced should be the deciding factor in engagements where that difference would come into play.

Lasers don't really get boosted either and if anything, forcing blaster and ac boats to get closer to laser users should mean they come up trumps via getting under the guns and using their now superior tracking.


You need to remember that combat is measured in absolute distances while TEs give relative bonuses. This means something specific in the "real world" of Eve. Consider that Blasters have a naturally small window of advantage - if you're too close you have tracking issues and if you're too far you are losing lots of damage to falloff.

Lets suppose that window is 500m wide. A TE doesn't increase the width of that window by 30% to make it 500m wide - it increases it by 1-2km and is thus a 500% increase. Now suppose that window was 10km wide as a high falloff weapon would have. Now the extra 3-4km just isn't as big of a deal and you're much closer to the suggested "30%" nerf.

Also - Uh, no man - I ******* love lasers. I just don't think they need boosted compared to hybrids and projectiles. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#606 - 2011-12-04 23:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
until rails and/or Null are significantly buffed, there's nothing to see here. blaster boats are still blaster boats.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#607 - 2011-12-04 23:21:07 UTC
Sebastian N Cain wrote:
No, i´m flying Minnies threading the needle and i can tell you the difference is still more than enough.


You can only thread the needle in one direction at a time - 1v1 and you might make it work out. Putting even a small gang on there is going to force you to make hard decisions - like whether or not you should get eaten by lasers at range or close in and get eaten by hybrids up close.

I honestly think people just aren't giving Gallente enough credit right now. Everyone's like "oh they work a bit better" - but its not a bit better. Its ******* amazingly better.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#608 - 2011-12-04 23:23:37 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
until rails and/or Null are significantly buffed, there's nothing to see here. blaster boats are still blaster boats.


How far out do you want a Deimos to outdamage a Vagabond before you consider Null to be "good enough"?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Goose99
#609 - 2011-12-04 23:28:16 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
until rails and/or Null are significantly buffed, there's nothing to see here. blaster boats are still blaster boats.


How far out do you want a Deimos to outdamage a Vagabond before you consider Null to be "good enough"?

-Liang


When diemost manages to catch the vega?Lol
Skinae
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#610 - 2011-12-04 23:32:46 UTC
Comparing a Diemos to a Vaga paints a pretty good picture of how disconnected you are from this game.

Bonafide Film House a Bozeman Video Production Company and Montana Wedding Video Company
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#611 - 2011-12-04 23:41:05 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
until rails and/or Null are significantly buffed, there's nothing to see here. blaster boats are still blaster boats.


How far out do you want a Deimos to outdamage a Vagabond before you consider Null to be "good enough"?

-Liang


When diemost manages to catch the vega?Lol


Bring a Vaga to Amamake and I think I'll arrange a demonstration for you. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#612 - 2011-12-04 23:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
Damage projection of a Deimos and Vagabond is similar to around 24,000 meters (if I remember correctly). Although it was like that before. Now they use less capacitor and do 5% more damage.

Agility and velocity of the Deimos has been increase significantly too. Also a Deimos has a very large capacitor. Meaning the thing can run a mwd alot longer than a Vagabond can. Again, that has always been the case for awhile now.

I'm not sure about the other things he's on about, but he's correct when it comes to this. Which incidentally would mean he does know what he's talking about. Kinda of funny because the Thorax is in no way better than a Vexor and a Rupture is still better than both. However, a plated Thorax is very close in terms of velocity to a plated Rupture.
Goose99
#613 - 2011-12-05 00:04:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
m0cking bird wrote:
Damage projection of a Deimos and Vagabond is similar to around 24,000 meters (if I remember correctly). Although it was like that before. Now they use less capacitor and do 5% more damage.

Agility and velocity of the Deimos has been increase significantly too. Also a Deimos has a very large capacitor. Meaning the thing can run a mwd alot longer than a Vagabond can. Again, that has always been the case for awhile now.

I'm not sure about the other things he's on about, but he's correct when it comes to this. Which incidentally would mean he does know what he's talking about. Kinda of funny because the Thorax is in no way better than a Vexor and a Rupture is still better than both. However, a plated Thorax is very close in terms of velocity to a plated Rupture.


Are we playing the same game? Unless memory is playing tricks, standard kiting vega gets around 50km falloff and close to 3k m/s. It does basically full dps at point range. As opposed to a diemost that's 2k m/s and does basically no dps at that range.

Edit: did a bit of eft warrioring, as I haven't flied diemost in a long time. With null in rack of neutrons and 2 te, it gets 27km range, and does next to no dps at edge of falloff, while going at 2k m/s even with 2 nanos. Vega gets 30km range even without te, 50km with, and goes to 3k m/s. Now I remember why I stopped flying this thing.Roll
Skinae
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#614 - 2011-12-05 00:08:45 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
Damage projection of a Deimos and Vagabond is similar to around 24,000 meters (if I remember correctly). Although it was like that before. Now they use less capacitor and do 5% more damage.

Agility and velocity of the Deimos has been increase significantly too. Also a Deimos has a very large capacitor. Meaning the thing can run a mwd alot longer than a Vagabond can. Again, that has always been the case for awhile now.

I'm not sure about the other things he's on about, but he's correct when it comes to this. Which incidentally would mean he does know what he's talking about. Kinda of funny because the Thorax is in no way better than a Vexor and a Rupture is still better than both. However, a plated Thorax is very close in terms of velocity to a plated Rupture.


Are we playing the same game? Unless memory is playing tricks, standard kiting vega gets around 50km falloff and close to 3k m/s. It does basically full dps at point range. As opposed to a diemost that's 2k m/s and does basically no dps at that range.


All that sounds just about right.

But LIANG says they're good, so they must be.


-SKINAE

Bonafide Film House a Bozeman Video Production Company and Montana Wedding Video Company
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#615 - 2011-12-05 00:16:07 UTC
Skinae wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

Are we playing the same game? Unless memory is playing tricks, standard kiting vega gets around 50km falloff and close to 3k m/s. It does basically full dps at point range. As opposed to a diemost that's 2k m/s and does basically no dps at that range.


All that sounds just about right.

But LIANG says they're good, so they must be.


-SKINAE


Something is seriously amiss if a Vagabond is doing "full DPS at point range" and the Deimos is doing "basically no DPS at that range". Afterall, a Deimos will outdamage a standard Vagabond out to 26-30km depending on fits....

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Rysis Vyvorant
Shadow Legion X
Seriously Suspicious
#616 - 2011-12-05 00:27:10 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Skinae wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

Are we playing the same game? Unless memory is playing tricks, standard kiting vega gets around 50km falloff and close to 3k m/s. It does basically full dps at point range. As opposed to a diemost that's 2k m/s and does basically no dps at that range.


All that sounds just about right.

But LIANG says they're good, so they must be.


-SKINAE


Something is seriously amiss if a Vagabond is doing "full DPS at point range" and the Deimos is doing "basically no DPS at that range". Afterall, a Deimos will outdamage a standard Vagabond out to 26-30km depending on fits....

-Liang


I find it funny how you believe Minmatar are perfectly fine and that it is all just a "L2P" issue. Minmatar are so out of line at the moment, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone is flyiing them....

Eventually something will give, but which way CCP will go is anyones guess.
Skinae
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#617 - 2011-12-05 00:32:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Skinae
Please show me a fit that out dps's a Vaga at 30k with comparable tank, tracking and maneuverability.

-SKINAE

(edit, forgot to add ridiculous attention grabbing signature, even though my name is less than a inch to the left)

Bonafide Film House a Bozeman Video Production Company and Montana Wedding Video Company
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#618 - 2011-12-05 00:38:40 UTC
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:

I find it funny how you believe Minmatar are perfectly fine and that it is all just a "L2P" issue. Minmatar are so out of line at the moment, I mean there has to be a reason why everyone is flyiing them....

Eventually something will give, but which way CCP will go is anyones guess.


Before the Hybrid boost went live, I was on record as saying a projectile nerf would probably be necessary. I was also hesitant to say it should happen right now because we didn't know where things would be after the hybrid boost went live. My main contention here is that the Hybrid boost is actually far more impressive than people are giving it credit for - to the point that a lot of the old Minmatar stand bys are just not best in class anymore. Its just going to take time for people to accept that.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#619 - 2011-12-05 00:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Skinae wrote:
Please show me a fit that out dps's a Vaga at 30k with comparable tank, tracking and maneuverability.

-SKINAE

(edit, forgot to add ridiculous attention grabbing signature, even though my name is less than a inch to the left)


A few commments:
- If you write longer posts, your name will no longer be an inch to the left.
- Your name will not be on the screen at all if someone is viewing the site on a mobile browser.
- I've been signing my posts for a very long time. So sorry if it offends you (I'm really not), but no amount of your pathetic ridicule is going to change it. :)

-Liang

Ed: Also, I'm at work right now. Look at a shield tanked Nuetron/Null fit with a couple TEs in the lows.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Matuk Grymwal
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#620 - 2011-12-05 02:26:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Skinae wrote:
Please show me a fit that out dps's a Vaga at 30k with comparable tank, tracking and maneuverability.

-SKINAE

(edit, forgot to add ridiculous attention grabbing signature, even though my name is less than a inch to the left)


A few commments:
- If you write longer posts, your name will no longer be an inch to the left.
- Your name will not be on the screen at all if someone is viewing the site on a mobile browser.
- I've been signing my posts for a very long time. So sorry if it offends you (I'm really not), but no amount of your pathetic ridicule is going to change it. :)

-Liang

Ed: Also, I'm at work right now. Look at a shield tanked Nuetron/Null fit with a couple TEs in the lows.

At work is a poor excuse. I've put EFT in my Dropbox account so I can EFT whore anywhere with an internet connection Blink For my gall vs this matar char I get better DPS on the Deimos out to 25. Once I hit 30 the vaga just has the edge. Tracking is essentially the same. EHP is also the same.