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Annoying maths question!

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Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#21 - 2011-12-01 16:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Akita T wrote:
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Close, but not quite. It's not adding, it's exponential multiplication. Each new game adds another three possibilities to the total.
3x9x27x81x242x729x2187x6561x19683x59049 = 177147.
(I do need a verification of the math, but I'm reasonably sure it's correct...)

It's EITHER 66 in the unlikely case the OP meant "combination of total wins/loses/draws" OR (almost certainly) 3*3*3*3*3*3*3*3*3*3=3^10=59049 in case he meant total number of individual possibilities for each match in particular (as already mentioned and explained by most of the people in here).

It can't possibly be 3x9x27x81x242x729x2187x6561x19683x59049=3^(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)=3^55= 174,449,211,009,120,179,071,170,507 like your forumula suggest, nor is it possibly 3+9+27+81+242+729+2187+6561+19683+59049=88,571 which would be closer to the result you gave.
No idea where you got 177147 from anyway.


From...multiplication...../foreheadsmack

Like I said (and apparently nobody understood), I'm no great shakes at math, which is why I asked for verification.

The issue that comes up with 3^10 is that it totals the amount of win/loss/tie results, not the total possible permutations of the three win/loss/tie options over ten games.

:Edit: To avoid confusion, I changed 'Combinations' to 'permutations', because (as pointed out elsewhere) 'combinations' means someting different in mathematics).

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Something Random
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2011-12-01 20:25:15 UTC
It is also winter time and some matches may get postponed.

"caught on fire a little bit, just a little."

"Delinquents, check, weirdos, check, hippies, check, pillheads, check, freaks, check, potheads, check .....gangs all here!"

I love Science, it gives me a Hadron.

Barakkus
#23 - 2011-12-01 20:28:56 UTC
Win lose or draw?

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#24 - 2011-12-01 20:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
[BIGSNIP]

The issue that comes up with 3^10 is that it totals the amount of win/loss/tie results, not the total possible permutations of the three win/loss/tie options over ten games.

:Edit: To avoid confusion, I changed 'Combinations' to 'permutations', because (as pointed out elsewhere) 'combinations' means someting different in mathematics).


And that's why we have two possible answers, depending on what the OP meant, the context of his question.

If he meant "overall win/loss/draw statistics of a single team playing 10 consecutive matches with doesn't matter who", it's 66 possibilities.
Same answer if the context was "overall number of wins/losses/draws in a round of 10 matches between whatever teams". Still 66.

If he meant "number of possible ways to fill in a sports-betting sheet with 10 specific matches on it", it's 59049 versions.

Those answers, either 66 or 59049 are the only possible answers, depending on context. There are no other possible interpretations of the question the OP put in which the answer would be different from one of those two.
The Archetect
Toxic Squadron
Northern Coalition.
#25 - 2011-12-01 21:39:31 UTC
I like how this thread has progressed..... This is all....

- Arch
Vicker Lahn'se
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2011-12-01 21:46:23 UTC
This is turning into another 4/2+2 thread.
Vicker Lahn'se
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2011-12-01 21:46:30 UTC
Edit: Double post due to forum being "ganked". -_-
Barakkus
#28 - 2011-12-02 00:22:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Barakkus
I believe the permutations is the multiplication of all the factorals. 3^10 is wrong. My wife explained it to me, I sorta scratched my head, but the gist of it I got was just multiply the factorals of the stuff then divide by something or another.

Edit as a side note doing 3^10 doesn't get you anything meaningful for the most part, it's not the combinations or permutations.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#29 - 2011-12-02 02:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Barakkus wrote:
I believe the permutations is the multiplication of all the factorals. 3^10 is wrong. My wife explained it to me, I sorta scratched my head, but the gist of it I got was just multiply the factorals of the stuff then divide by something or another.
Edit as a side note doing 3^10 doesn't get you anything meaningful for the most part, it's not the combinations or permutations.

Dude, seriously, it's either 66 or 3^10=~59k.

If you have a betting sheet on which you have to write an X in the appropriate field for the result you want (home team win, draw, home team defeat), like, say, this one below (which happens to be a selection of some RL matches scheduled to be held a few of days from now):

[1][=][2]
[_][_][_] BV Borussia Dortmund -vs- Olympique De Marseille
[_][_][_] Chelsea -vs- Valencia
[_][_][_] FC Barcelona -vs Bate Borisov
[_][_][_] FC Porto -vs- FK Zenit St. Petersburg
[_][_][_] KRC Genk -vs- Bayer 04 Leverkusen
[_][_][_] Olympiakos -vs- Arsenal
[_][_][_] Ajax -vs- Real Madrid
[_][_][_] Benfica Lisbon -vs- Otelul
[_][_][_] FC Basel 1893 -vs- Manchester United
[_][_][_] Manchester City -vs- Bayern Munchen

...then 3^10 would be the total number of ways you CAN complete this sheet by picking ONLY ONE result for EACH of the listed matches
--or if you prefer, 1/(3^10) would be the chance of getting all of the results right by selecting them completely randomly--

...while 66 would be the total number of possibilities of results of the type "grand total of 5 wins by the home team, 3 draws, 2 wins by the guest team".
stoicfaux
#30 - 2011-12-02 02:28:51 UTC
Barakkus wrote:
I believe the permutations is the multiplication of all the factorals. 3^10 is wrong. My wife explained it to me, I sorta scratched my head, but the gist of it I got was just multiply the factorals of the stuff then divide by something or another.

Edit as a side note doing 3^10 doesn't get you anything meaningful for the most part, it's not the combinations or permutations.

Mnemonics:
Permutations and Powers start with the letter "P", i.e. 3^10
Permutations for when order matters. The letter "p" comes after "o", i.e. ordered.

Combinations use factorials and factorials get big Crazy fast. Crazy and Combinations start with "C", factorials contains the letter "C". (The factorial of 70 is a 101 digit number, whereas 3^70 is just a 34 digit number...)
Combinations for when order doesn't matter. (Go "C"razy with the ordering.)


You can also google "permutations" and "combinations" and find a dozen math tutorials, online examples, and how-to's on the subject.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Selinate
#31 - 2011-12-02 06:22:25 UTC
Barakkus wrote:
I believe the permutations is the multiplication of all the factorals. 3^10 is wrong. My wife explained it to me, I sorta scratched my head, but the gist of it I got was just multiply the factorals of the stuff then divide by something or another.

Edit as a side note doing 3^10 doesn't get you anything meaningful for the most part, it's not the combinations or permutations.



It's the number of possibilities of outcome, sort of like if you have 2 shirts and 3 pants, how many different outfits can you wear. The answer is 6. Same concept with 3^10.
Lyrka Bloodberry
Spybeaver
#32 - 2011-12-02 14:41:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrka Bloodberry
stoicfaux wrote:
edit:
permutations: when order matters
combinations: when order doesn't matter


In fact I know a different Definition.
edit: The Wikipedia article of Permutation uses the same definition as I do, but with a hint on your Definition.

From what I learned a Permutation is the recombination
of the entries a given vector of length n.
Example:
(2,1,3) is a Permutation of (1,2,3)
(3,2,1) is a permutation of (1,2,3)
(1,2,3) is a permutation of (1,2,3)


A combination is a recombination of a subset of k entries from a vector of length n.
Example:
(1,2) is a combination of length 2 from (1,2,3)
(1,1) is a combination of length 2 from (1,2,3)

For combinations there are 4 different possibilities to draw:
With replacement, with consideration of order
Without replacement, with consideration of order
With replacement, without consideration of order
Without replacement, without consideration of order

With replacement means you can draw a number more than once, i.e.
if you first draw the 1 out of (1,2,3) you again draw from (1,2,3) in the second draw

Without replacement means every number can only be drawn once, i.e.
if you first draw the 1 out of (1,2,3) you then draw from (2,3) in the second draw

With and without consideration of order has been explained above.
Without consideration of order means that drawing (2,3) from (1,2,3) is seen as
the same result as drawing (3,2).


Another definition says that a combination is what I explained above, but only
without consideration of order. If you are considering the order it is then called variation.


Regardless of how you call it, the formulas for the number of recombinations for the permutation and 4 combinations are:
(with choose(n,k) = n! / (k! * (n-k)!) and n! = 1 * 2 * ... * n)


Permutation:
n!

Combination with replacement, with consideration of order:
n^k

Combination with replacement, without consideration of order:
choose(n+k-1, k)

Combination without replacement, with consideration of order:
n! / ((n-k)!)

Combination without replacement, without consideration of order:
choose(n,k)



Regardless of how you name it, permutations, combination, variations,... whatever. Basically these are the five formulae you need to do combinatorics (In fact you only need four as a permutation is a combination without replacement, with consideration of order with n=k).



edit2: So what I am basically saying is: Akita is right. Listen to her!
You want to draw k=10 times from n=3 outcomes. You cannot do that without replacement.
Taking order into account you get n^k = 3^10
Not taking order into account gets you choose(n+k-1,k) = choose(12,10) = 12! / (10! * 2!) = 11*12 / 2 = 66

Spybeaver

Barakkus
#33 - 2011-12-02 14:46:13 UTC
Selinate wrote:
Barakkus wrote:
I believe the permutations is the multiplication of all the factorals. 3^10 is wrong. My wife explained it to me, I sorta scratched my head, but the gist of it I got was just multiply the factorals of the stuff then divide by something or another.

Edit as a side note doing 3^10 doesn't get you anything meaningful for the most part, it's not the combinations or permutations.



It's the number of possibilities of outcome, sort of like if you have 2 shirts and 3 pants, how many different outfits can you wear. The answer is 6. Same concept with 3^10.


Actually it doesn't mean anything in relation to what the OP is asking for. Lyrka Bloodberry explained it I believe how my wife explained it for the most part.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#34 - 2011-12-02 18:08:55 UTC
Lyrka Bloodberry wrote:
So what I am basically saying is: Akita is right. Listen to her!

\o/
Selinate
#35 - 2011-12-02 18:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Selinate
Barakkus wrote:
Selinate wrote:
Barakkus wrote:
I believe the permutations is the multiplication of all the factorals. 3^10 is wrong. My wife explained it to me, I sorta scratched my head, but the gist of it I got was just multiply the factorals of the stuff then divide by something or another.

Edit as a side note doing 3^10 doesn't get you anything meaningful for the most part, it's not the combinations or permutations.



It's the number of possibilities of outcome, sort of like if you have 2 shirts and 3 pants, how many different outfits can you wear. The answer is 6. Same concept with 3^10.


Actually it doesn't mean anything in relation to what the OP is asking for. Lyrka Bloodberry explained it I believe how my wife explained it for the most part.



Let me explain this again.

A person has 2 shirts and 3 pants to choose from. How many outfits (combinations of pants and shirts) can that person wear?

(1,1)
(1,2)
(1,3)
(2,1)
(2,2)
(2,3)

6 "combinations". So yes, it does mean something in relation to what the OP is asking for.
Barakkus
#36 - 2011-12-02 19:19:11 UTC
Selinate wrote:
Barakkus wrote:
Selinate wrote:
Barakkus wrote:
I believe the permutations is the multiplication of all the factorals. 3^10 is wrong. My wife explained it to me, I sorta scratched my head, but the gist of it I got was just multiply the factorals of the stuff then divide by something or another.

Edit as a side note doing 3^10 doesn't get you anything meaningful for the most part, it's not the combinations or permutations.



It's the number of possibilities of outcome, sort of like if you have 2 shirts and 3 pants, how many different outfits can you wear. The answer is 6. Same concept with 3^10.


Actually it doesn't mean anything in relation to what the OP is asking for. Lyrka Bloodberry explained it I believe how my wife explained it for the most part.



Let me explain this again.

A person has 2 shirts and 3 pants to choose from. How many outfits (combinations of pants and shirts) can that person wear?

(1,1)
(1,2)
(1,3)
(2,1)
(2,2)
(2,3)

6 "combinations". So yes, it does mean something in relation to what the OP is asking for.


I think we're both misreading eachother's posts...my bad...

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc

Lord Wamphyri
Starside Lost
#37 - 2011-12-03 00:04:32 UTC
ITT: Clever people.

I am not one of them...

*goes and lays down with a headache*

[IMG]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/ChrisW73/WampsigFinal.jpg[/IMG]

Bydla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2011-12-04 21:48:20 UTC
My name is Ralph.
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