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Returning Players/Skill Points
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Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#121 - 2014-05-31 23:47:23 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
And here you go, blowing things out of proportion.

Now you've done it. When you've finished taking your well deserved beating for this over 40 pages, I demand you post an apology to the rest of the forum. You could just do it now.

I'm keeping this in mind. I'm starting to get annoyed.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Marsha Mallow
#122 - 2014-05-31 23:49:38 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
And here you go, blowing things out of proportion.

Now you've done it. When you've finished taking your well deserved beating for this over 40 pages, I demand you post an apology to the rest of the forum. You could just do it now.

I'm keeping this in mind. I'm starting to get annoyed.

You started it. I want some money now too.

/holds out hand

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#123 - 2014-05-31 23:51:09 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
And here you go, blowing things out of proportion.

Now you've done it. When you've finished taking your well deserved beating for this over 40 pages, I demand you post an apology to the rest of the forum. You could just do it now.

I'm keeping this in mind. I'm starting to get annoyed.

You started it. I want some money now too.

/holds out hand

I'm not done yet! This rock will float by conviction, even if I have to show it how it's done!

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Marsha Mallow
#124 - 2014-05-31 23:53:18 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
I'm not done yet! This rock will float by conviction, even if I have to show it how it's done!

It's a grand effort. Don't get annoyed, stay frosty.

One day, we'll be able to contradict the Trippia. One day...

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#125 - 2014-06-01 00:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Erufen Rito wrote:
Convenient.
It's very convenient that the proof of you being wrong is so readily at hand.
Not only have I answered you, it is entirely your assumption that I haven't done so, and your sentence should have used “that” rather than “because” if you wanted it to be truthful. Instead, you lied. Again.

Quote:
For the nth time. You quote out of context, you assume I said things, or suggest I meant something different.
Not really no. Well, I did that last one because I wanted you to say something true for once. You didn't want to do that, though. You made a claim that is 100% untruthful. I corrected you so that you could be right for once. That is not me twisting your words — that is me giving you an out.

Quote:
You have yet to define said exploitation
Incorrect. You just haven't read it. Again: how do you work around the exploitation your idea allows for older players?

Quote:
1. The purpose of training skills is to be able to train more skills, or fly a different ship, or speciallize on an area of the game. This is known as progress

2. I don't think it's broken because anyone does it faster. Care to show where I have hinted at this?

3. It's fear of change, because you refuse to listen, you refuse to explain, you refuse to rationalize, so it's either something that paralizes your faculties (my guess is fear, so there) or simple ignorance.

4. Where did you get the idea that I have the idea that you don't have to train?

1. No, it's called differentiation. By training a skill, you get something that those who didn't train that skill didn't get.

In other games, this is often what they try to sell as progression and that is why it's so important that they offer players a means to keep it when they figure that what they're doing is horribly boring and they want to try something else. EVE does not work like that. Here, progression is measured in any one of a bazillion different ways — SP being probably the most useless way of doing so — and keeping that progression is entirely optional. What isn't optional is the differentiation; it is what has to be maintained to make the time investment worth anything.

Destroying that differentiation at the press of a button breaks the game.

2. Right in this strawman. Now, are you seriously that oblivious to how what you're describing effectively removes attributes? You didn't answer the question.
What makes you think that it's broken because anyone does it faster? It was your invention, now you get to describe it or admit that it was a nonsense claim on your part.

3. That's a nonsensical answer. Nothing you explained how it is fear of change — it's a list of problems you've incurred because you refuse to read. So try again. What makes you think it's a fear of change?

4. Right in this strawman. So where did you get the idea that you didn't have to train? You are saying that “If you want more SP, you have to train for it, thus forcing you to train anyway” as if it contradicted anything I said — as if training was something you didn't have to do. Where did you get that nonsensical idea?

Quote:
Oh really? What was the time difference then?
Same as always: it was an irrelevant strawman.

Oh, and here's the reason why I come back to saying that you need to read. Look at that quote you used. Notice how it does not include the part you are lying about — your strawman is not “exactly what I said”; it is not “[my] ‘solution’ to what ‘[you] want’”; it is something you've fabricated because you didn't care to read very carefully.

You are putting words in my mouth and then being angry about your own invention. You are making a strawman argument.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#126 - 2014-06-01 00:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Erufen Rito
Tippia wrote:
t's very convenient that the proof of you being wrong is so readily at hand.
Not only have I answered you, it is entirely your assumption that I haven't done so, and your sentence should have used “that” rather than “because” if you wanted it to be truthful. Instead, you lied. Again.
You didn't read. I said what you quoted is irrelevant. We are back to your derail of "You said I said". You are very efficient at this as well, nice! EDIT: I forgot to mention. It's not an assumption, it's a fact. What was the time difference?

heh, and you call me a liar....

Quote:
Not really no. Well, I did that last one because I wanted you to say something true for once. You didn't want to do that, though. You made a claim that is 100% untruthful. I corrected you so that you could be right for once. That is not me twisting your words — that is me giving you an out.
Yes really, yes. You said I said. Try something different for a change, like getting back on topic.

Quote:
Incorrect. You just haven't read it.
You said I said. Define it, prove it. That is how a concept is made, not by simply saying "I did, it's there, you just didn't read it".

Quote:
1. No, it's called differentiation. By training a skill, you get something that those who didn't train that skill didn't get.

In other games, this is often what they try to sell as progression and that is why it's so important that they offer players a means to keep it when they figure that what they're doing is horribly boring and they want to try something else. EVE does not work like that. Here, progression is measured in any one of a bazillion different ways — SP being probably the most useless way of doing so — and keeping that progression is entirely optional. What isn't optional is the differentiation; it is what has to be maintained to make the time investment worth anything.

Destroying that differentiation at the press of a button breaks the game.

2. Right in this strawman. Now, where did you get the idea that you didn't have to train?
Are you seriously that oblivious to how what you're describing effectively removes attributes? You didn't answer the question.
What makes you think that it's broken because anyone does it faster? It was your invention, now you get to describe it or admit that it was a nonsense claim on your part.

3. That's a nonsensical answer. Nothing you explained how it is fear of change — it's a list of problems you've incurred because you refuse to read. So try again. What makes you think it's a fear of change?

1. So, by doing something the rest don't, and thus getting something the rest didn't, you have acheived differentiation. Does this sound about right?. Now, if I do something you haven't, and get something you don't, wouldn't you say I have progressed? In retrospect, I don't care what you say. By deffinition, I have. Unless the definiton of "progress" changed as of the past decade.

2. This shows your own inability to comprehensively read. I am stating that the "fear of it being broken because they get to do it faster" Is unfounded. If you read the quoted post in that link, you will find the reason why the comment was made. Try again, but this time read.

3. Not my problems actually, yours. I have analyzed your behaviour, and I deducted that you are afraid of change. This is as relevant as all of your "strawmen" arguments, and your continued refusal to answer a simple math question. This is a numbers game after all, so what you feel, or think is irrelevant. Math is an exact science.

Quote:
Same as always: it was an irrelevant strawman.
More like, You can see where this leads, which would prove my point, and you continue to refuse to answer. Humor me, as I have.

I can quote at least another ocation in which you said the solution to what we want is the removal of skills.

This is the first instance where the concept of "removing skills" was introduced to this thread. Guess who was the author?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4656991#post4656991
And I called you out on it here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4657079#post4657079
And you carried on to hide your horrible missconception of the OP here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4657113#post4657113

I've gone through the trouble of finding your posts, because I don't want you to feel I'm lying to you, when I say "You brought it up".

Call me a liar one more time.

Angry? More like annoyed. It's an unreasonable ammount of time I've invested in trying to get you to use your brain and show me numbers, an example, an excersise in which you prove your point, a concept that seems too alien to you. I can accept an "I can't do it" or "I don't want to" and that's fine, but it also means that your argument is groundless, and thus, you are just wasting my time.


Regardless, this argument is over because you simply refuse to reply to the questions being asked. Thanks for playing, but ultimatedly, you are unable to defend your point, and shield youself behind your superior debate terminology that no one is grading here.

You drop every single point that happens to prove you wrong, and refrain from commenting on it, under the pretence of "it's a formulated strawmen", yet you are uanble to prove that as well.

You continue to twist my sentences, and change the meaning of the context by excluding it.

You have failed to prove anything, other than your very impressive debating skills, sadly you have said nothing in regards to the OP, and thus wasted everyone's time and your skills by avoiding any form of logical thought.

Now, it turns out, I'm putting words in your mouth, by quoting the things you have said. Wait what? How does that even work? Are you SURE you can read?

If so, answer the questions posted and prove your point. It's a simmple matter really. Can you prove your point? Show me. Don't tell, show.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#127 - 2014-06-01 01:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Erufen Rito wrote:
I said what you quoted is irrelevant.
…and try as you might to convince yourself otherwise, they still show that I answered your inquiries, thereby proving that you lied. Again. As usual.

Quote:
You said I said.
No. I very clearly marked a correction to your post to remove the lie in it. I never said you said it — I don't use your strawman approach. That's the difference between us: you keep lying about what I say; I make it very clear what it is I have said and you have said.

Quote:
Define it, prove it.
Done and done. You just didn't read it. Now answer the questions.

Quote:
1. So, by doing something the rest don't, and thus getting something the rest didn't, you have acheived differentiation. Does this sound about right?. Now, if I do something you haven't, and get something you don't, wouldn't you say I have progressed? In retrospect, I don't care what you say. By deffinition, I have. Unless the definiton of "progress" changed as of the past decade.

2. This shows your own inability to comprehensively read. I am stating that the "fear of it being broken because they get to do it faster" Is unfounded. If you read the quoted post in that link, you will find the reason why the comment was made. Try again, but this time read.

3. Not my problems actually, yours. I have analyzed your behaviour, and I deducted that you are afraid of change. This is as relevant as all of your "strawmen" arguments, and your continued refusal to answer a simple math question. This is a numbers game after all, so what you feel, or think is irrelevant. Math is an exact science.

4. More like, You can see where this leads, which would prove my point, and you continue to refuse to answer.
1. No, you haven't progressed. You've only differentiated yourself. If you made that differentiation in a particularly stupid direction, I would probably say that you have regressed and I have shot ahead of you. Again, this isn't a class/level-based game where you progress up a ladder — it's a game where you pick your own goals and try to differentiate yourself from others to gain an advantage over them.

That's also why SP remapping breaks the game so horribly and why it belongs in a game where progression is something that can be defined and needs to be preserved.

2. …and it is still entirely of your invention. You made the claim that it was broken because it was faster and you attributed other people's fear to this. So it's really a double strawman: you invent a reason and you invent an emotional response. I still want to know where on earth you got those ideas from. The post quoted in that link only asked a simple question and it had nothing to do with fear, and you're massively misrepresenting the argument as usual. Hell, it's not even about “they get to do it faster”, and the differentiation in speed is a minute part of the problem.

3. No, your refusal to read is entirely your problem. Your baseless assumption that result from this refusal is also your problem. Your feeble attempts at squirming out from the ever-increasing weight as these assumptions come crumbling down on to of you is once more your problem.

4. No, it's more like it has nothing to do with anything I've said, and you keep throwing it out there as if it is for me to respond to. It's not. It's your invention. Trying to make it my problem makes it a strawman argument and it is irrelevant to the discussion we're having. If you want to complain about it, take it up with someone who has made an argument about it, if you can find anyone…

Quote:
I can quote at least another ocation in which you said the solution to what we want is the removal of skills.
Funny how none of those quotes presents any kind of solution. Oh, and funny how that last one only shows that you are unable to read and comprehend context, since you think it is a misconception of the OP. So those are a nice set of lies you've got there. Do you have any more?

And yes, you're very obviously very angry about how your lies keep being uncovered; how your insistence about my not replying was so easily proven wrong; and how your increasingly panicked attempts at going off on tangents always fail because I drag you, kicking and screaming, back on topic.

Meanwhile, you have been unable to actually respond to any of my points (since you keep not reading them). They have been explained rather extensively by now, but you keep going for the convenient by blatantly obvious lie about how I haven't said anything. The truth is that I haven't said anything about your irrelevant side-tracks because… well… they're irrelevant side-tracks. I'm simply talking about the topic at hand: SP remaps and how they break the game.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#128 - 2014-06-01 01:31:18 UTC
*throws a knife into the middle of the room and locks the door from the outside*

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#129 - 2014-06-01 01:40:15 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
*throws a knife into the middle of the room and locks the door from the outside*

Outside? Pff. Chicken. P
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#130 - 2014-06-01 01:42:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
*throws a knife into the middle of the room and locks the door from the outside*

Outside? Pff. Chicken. P


Hey hunny, its not my fight, its you and him

My money is always on you though xx

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Vivec Septim
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2014-06-01 02:47:44 UTC
It would be horrible.
Make your decisions, live by their effects, and adapt/change your skill plan as needed.

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. 
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#132 - 2014-06-01 03:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tying that horribly bad idea to a payment scheme just gives it firmly push off its precarious ledge half-way down the cliffs of awfulness and makes it splatter noisily against the bottom of the chasm of mindblowing abominations.

This should be stickied somewhere in F&I.

WTB: Dev video with them showing us the look on faces when they see our 'ideas'. Something like this.

Carry on P

MY EYESAttention

Oh yeah, by the way OP, this is EVE.

No redo's, no get out of jail free cards, no quick saves, no "I wasn't ready yet's", no time outs, no lack of consequence for important decisions.

If you haven't seen the obvious game breaking flaws and exploits possible in your proposal, and refuse to understand them when fully explained to you, at least understand that it would be an incredibly unpopular idea (as this thread has firmly established) and leave it at that.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.