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Loot Scattering removed from Exploration Sites

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Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#141 - 2014-05-27 18:06:41 UTC
Sarin Khorta wrote:
I don't yet know enough about exploring, nor market fluxuations, to venture a truly informed viewpoint. However, I am seeing what appears to be an interesting contradiction between the three primary types of responses I've seen in this thread:

1. "Yay! No more loot scattering! I'll come back to exploring now!"

2. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! I'll leave exploring!"

3. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! It'll drive market prices up!"

This seemingly translates to:

1. You have one group of people who will come back simply because they didn't like the *way* they had to do things. Thus, more explorers.

2. You have another group of people who seem to think that reduced loot immediately equals reduced profit. Thus, fewer explorers.

3. You have a third group of people who insist that reduced loot will immediately drive prices up in the market. Thus, intuitively, you'd think this would make exploration more lucrative again (because while there is less loot, that loot is now worth more), and thus, more explorers.

There is a cognitive dissonance between these viewpoints. I agree that "half" is probably drastic, but perhaps not as drastic as it might seem at first glance. Exploring may well end up being worth about the same overall, but is now worth more *per haul* than it was before, possibly increasing the ISK/hour that explorers receive, making exploration even more attractive. Of course, it may also make exploration hunters more prominent as well...

Food for thought.

Generally speaking, the price increase will not match the loss of volume.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#142 - 2014-05-27 20:18:44 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Don't forget that there is an implant that increases loot spew duration by 5s


We haven't and its getting changed.

Any kind of teaser as to what it will become?


The loot scattering decay bonus from the Poteque 'Prospector' Environmental Analysis EY-1005 implant was replaced with a +5 Virus Coherence bonus for both data and relic analyzers.

This is on Singularity now.


This is a weird change. +5 seconds of loot scatter decay was rather strong and I would have expected a bonus to virus strength at least. Also, the way the mini-game works makes a bonus on coherence or strength really only work in increments of 10. Everything else only helps in rare edge cases.

In the rare cases were uneven healing would live me with an uneven coherence, I think I would rather take the loss and try again, instead of having one of my implant-slots blocked.

Edit:

The only good thing I can say about this idea is: The coherence bonus applies both to relic and data analyzers, instead of just one type like the others. So I guess someone could combine both implant-slots for a more sensible +10 bonus to whatever you want to hack.

Now if those implants would give +5 to virus strength instead, I would even consider using two of them together like this. Too bad. Lol
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#143 - 2014-05-27 21:29:29 UTC
I have to agree with the "don't cut loot in half" people, because T2 rigs are insanely priced if we cut the supply for the most expensive salvage. Having loot at its current level would initially make prices drop a bit, but then they would stabilize at some level, so the explorers make as much as they did before (probably a bit more after the price drop since more people will be able to use the things that drop in price).
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#144 - 2014-05-27 21:43:34 UTC
While exploration drops are being tweaked, can you guys remove the following BPCs from combat site loot: Reactive Armor Hardener, Ancillary Armor Repairer, Ancillary Shield Booster, Large Micro Jump Drive, Target Spectrum Breakers.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#145 - 2014-05-27 22:05:02 UTC
Any chance for removing cargo scanning opportunity? It doesn't matter how you set out loot in "new" cans. Players will scan and loot only valuables ones. Plus there will be "gold rush" similiar to Odyssey release, because very few explorers liked scattering. You will need some safety valve for sites value, and hacking cans blindly may be one.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#146 - 2014-05-27 23:04:28 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Any chance for removing cargo scanning opportunity? It doesn't matter how you set out loot in "new" cans. Players will scan and loot only valuables ones. Plus there will be "gold rush" similiar to Odyssey release, because very few explorers liked scattering. You will need some safety valve for sites value, and hacking cans blindly may be one.


-Giving"unscannable" to Relic and Data container is the most urgent change should make CCP.
-For the implants i'd found it nice, if we reduce the loot quantity dropped by 10 % and compensate this by implants .
Josef Djugashvilis
#147 - 2014-05-28 16:05:34 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.

We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.


Put some new changes on SiSi, get invaluable player feedback to help iron out any problems.

Seems to be a good way of doing things.

Perhaps you could be kind enough to introduce the Tool-tip team to your working methodology.

This is not a signature.
Igor Nappi
Doomheim
#148 - 2014-05-28 16:14:57 UTC
I'm not a huge fan of removing the scattering mechanism. The moment of loot scattering seemed to be the perfect moment to decloak and get tackle on ships running the site vOv

Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#149 - 2014-05-28 22:01:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrthiis
Igor Nappi wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of removing the scattering mechanism. The moment of loot scattering seemed to be the perfect moment to decloak and get tackle on ships running the site vOv


yes it ll be significantly harder to tackle ,but let s be honnest it's not that hard in the first place .
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#150 - 2014-05-29 03:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: HeXxploiT
Sarin Khorta wrote:
I don't yet know enough about exploring, nor market fluxuations, to venture a truly informed viewpoint. However, I am seeing what appears to be an interesting contradiction between the three primary types of responses I've seen in this thread:

1. "Yay! No more loot scattering! I'll come back to exploring now!"

2. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! I'll leave exploring!"

3. "No! Don't cut the loot in half! It'll drive market prices up!"

This seemingly translates to:

1. You have one group of people who will come back simply because they didn't like the *way* they had to do things. Thus, more explorers.

2. You have another group of people who seem to think that reduced loot immediately equals reduced profit. Thus, fewer explorers.

3. You have a third group of people who insist that reduced loot will immediately drive prices up in the market. Thus, intuitively, you'd think this would make exploration more lucrative again (because while there is less loot, that loot is now worth more), and thus, more explorers.

There is a cognitive dissonance between these viewpoints. I agree that "half" is probably drastic, but perhaps not as drastic as it might seem at first glance. Exploring may well end up being worth about the same overall, but is now worth more *per haul* than it was before, possibly increasing the ISK/hour that explorers receive, making exploration even more attractive. Of course, it may also make exploration hunters more prominent as well...

Food for thought.


Aaaah but you've made an incorrect assumption in that the third group are not explorers but are affected by the prices of those items in their own way.

Also...nobody is going to quit scanning if loot spew goes away that's a ridiculous lie. They just like the idea that they can get loot that handicapped people and people with carpel tunnel may have difficulty retrieving.


Personally I think 70% will not be enough of a cut. Because the hacking game remains...which is what REALLY attracts explorers(not the loot spew) there will still be many more explorers than prior to the introduction of the hacking game/loot spew birth. Would really like to see it start out at 50% and then tweaked & perfected from there.

-------------
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2014-05-29 11:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiandoshia
Noriko Mai wrote:
Edward Olmops wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Sisi should be updated today and I went and pulled the trigger to remove the loot scattering mechanic from the Exploration Sites. I've also reverted most of the doubled rewards. Some need to be done manually by our designers so consider what you're getting out of the sites as WIP. It works pretty much as before but with the Hacking mechanic remaining. Simply hack the site to gain access to the cargo hold of your target.

We've tested quite a lot internally but there are likely to be some rough edges somewhere. Any feedback you guys can give me is greatly appreciated.



Here is my feedback:

Personally, I do NOT share the distaste for the loot explosion. But it is certainly ok to remove it again.

BUT. Please don't cut the loot tables in half!
Clever players were - even solo - able to get like 80% of the loot all the time (cargo scanner+choosing the right cans). The main thing you did with the loot explosion was that you GREATLY increased the supply for T2 salvage materials (and ESPECIALLY the rare, wanted ones since explorers are ofc first targetting the expensive stuff).
Please have a look at the prices for T2 rigs in the last year. They were finally reasonable fitting options to consider in any situation. Which was imo one of the cool (although stealth) improvements in Odyssey.
If you reduce the loot by 50%, you will pretty much kill off the use of those 300+ items again!
(granted, some of this MAY be offset by more ppl doing exploration if the prices explode,but then again, they'll just find half as many items).

Just have a look at the F&I threadnaught about JF and Freighter rebalancing. The prices for Single-Crystal Superalloy I-Beams went through the roof after the announcement.
Yet they are less than 20% (!!) of what they used to be before Odyssey (remember selling them for 8-10mil apiece).


So please, tune the loot down a bit if you feel you must, but not by 50% (maybe 10-20% would more realistically reflect what a good explorer today loses to the loot scattering mechanism).


And no, I am NOT doing exploration (tested it in length though after the Odyssey release, so I hope I know what I am talking about).

I quit exploration because of loot spew. It was just too annoying. With that removed I may do it again. So the reduction may be compensated a bit by more people doing exploration again.


I'll probably stop bothering with it. Now what? =o

Xander Phoena wrote:
Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve.


What? You mean like 95% afk? ^^
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2014-05-29 13:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Moth Eisig
Myrthiis wrote:
Igor Nappi wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of removing the scattering mechanism. The moment of loot scattering seemed to be the perfect moment to decloak and get tackle on ships running the site vOv


yes it ll be significantly harder to tackle ,but let s be honnest it's not that hard in the first place .


I've honestly found that my situational awareness is lowest when doing the hacking, not when grabbing the loot.
Myrthiis
Boon Odd Ducks Bath Toys
#153 - 2014-05-29 18:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Myrthiis
Moth Eisig wrote:
Myrthiis wrote:
Igor Nappi wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of removing the scattering mechanism. The moment of loot scattering seemed to be the perfect moment to decloak and get tackle on ships running the site vOv


yes it ll be significantly harder to tackle ,but let s be honnest it's not that hard in the first place .


I've honestly found that my situational awareness is lowest when doing the hacking, not when grabbing the loot.


That's true but with a bit of work you learn to d-scan every x nodes ,and u can still orbit the can at 2500 meters+ to insta recloack.
With loot spew u were very vulnerable during the looting phase to any incoming hostile it was almost a free kill ,now it ll be harder for a non cloacky to get a point on a vigilant explorer .
That's why i think a timer would be a great addition to the hacking game because it would stress the players (many would forgot to dscan during the mini game )and make them more vulnerable to an incoming .
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#154 - 2014-05-30 01:31:18 UTC
Xander Phoena wrote:
Very cool. Was never a fan of the loot scattering mechanic. Didn't really 'fit' with how we do most of our actions in space in Eve.


It was atleast pretty realistic from a RL perspective as cracking open a ship in the vacuum of space would have that effect, its just one of those times where reality doesn't make for very good gameplay :)
Smugest Sniper
neko island
Deedspace Consortium
#155 - 2014-05-31 11:53:02 UTC
I severely doubt more explorer's will generate more loot.

Statistically most of the good stuff is in Null-sec, and that means bubbles.

All it does is pad KB's with Cheetah wrecks of the unlucky.

And ultimately, lowers the availability of needed resources.
KayleInara
Perkone
Caldari State
#156 - 2014-05-31 18:38:57 UTC
CCP RedDawn wrote:

The loot scattering decay bonus from the Poteque 'Prospector' Environmental Analysis EY-1005 implant was replaced with a +5 Virus Coherence bonus for both data and relic analyzers.

This is on Singularity now.


As others have mentioned already, this bonus is all but worthless, especially for this expensive implant (for newbie explorers anyway).

The +5 seconds was a HUGE boost to effectiveness in grabbing cans. +5 coherence bonus will almost never make a difference at all. Yes, it's *possible* once in a great while for it to allow you that one final click, but in my experience, that other poster is right when he says that coherence goes in chunks of 10/20/40, not 5's, so this is pointless 99% or more of the time.

If it was changed to +5 virus strength, then I would continue to use the implant, but coherence, I'll just dump these on the market to buy orders and eat the loss, as they'll be useless.
PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#157 - 2014-06-02 17:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: PopeUrban
+10 would be a good start, but what about something more interesting.

Like..

We currently start a hack with no utilities, what if we could start with a lower-power version of one of the avaliable utilities, maybe a 25% kernel rot, or randomly targeting vector, or possibly reveal some small amount of the empty nodes at the beginning of the hack, say 5?
Mashimara
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2014-06-03 10:42:47 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Phaezen Outamon wrote:
I have run a couple of test hacks on Sisi this evening. The open container button on the radial menu of the hackable containers stays grey even after you have successfully hacked it, requiring you to use the right click menu to access the loot. Is this something you will be fixing?


Yes. Thanks for the feedback! Smile


You actually USE that radial crap?
Shivanthar
#159 - 2014-06-03 12:39:45 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
The problem with that idea is that it means there is an incentive for people who aren't interested in hacking or exploration as such to come in and fail in order to get the loot out. It's mitigatable but ultimately we'd be leaving a mechanic in that doesn't quite fit into EVE's interaction scheme.

I'm personally much more of a fan of making the reward you get out proportional to how well you complete the hack. The idea floated by someone earlier of having to find 'loot nodes' is along the same lines of future ideas for hacking (here and elsewhere) I have.


Yes, I would also expect hacking game rewarding as time and retry count go down. Faster and successful hackers should be rewarded more Twisted I hacked less than 20 seconds once. Where is my faction loot! :P

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
bonobko
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2014-06-03 14:29:24 UTC
Loved the scatter container mechanism...now it is just plain easy.

What is the respawn time for the hacking/relic cans now in cosmos sites?

It used to be 20 minutes and i would get most of the stuff, now im sitting here more than an hour after i hacked all the cans in blood raider hacking site and the cans are not respawning...

I certainly hope this is just a bug...